konalavadome

Lyrics lm working on.. brutal feedback please

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Sea

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« on: July 25, 2017, 10:48:21 PM »
lm attempting to have a go at my first song lyrics from all my collected ideas over the last few months.

The below is something l wrote in 20 min..with no thought to the proper songwriting structure(lm trying to learn) ....just guess work from what lv been trying to learn the last few weeks
... only 2 verses.... so please be absolutely brutal in feedback as that is the only way l'll learn. If it has no potential for re write...... please say so.... l can take it :)

Risk

Verse 1

I'm way up high, l'v seen it all
i'v been there far too often
l can hear my fears, the gamble real
but chance is just a feeling

 pre chorus

The beginning stopped
l'll take the risk


Verse 2
 
lm scared as hell, l'm surging down
I'm drowning in the sea
the dangers near, the loss is far
but harm is just a feeling
l have no choice, ll take the risk
as love from you is leaving
the love from you is leaving

Chorus

the beginning stopped
the dangers safe, l'll take the chance
l wont let go,
l wont let go.

Bridge

Don't you know its fools who win
don't you know me at all
you need to know, l want it all
the end begins with
risk... risk.... risk
risk... risk.... risk

risk.

diademgrove

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« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2017, 08:23:51 AM »
The first thing is what type of song do you want to write? Whilst there are rules which many songs follow they are there to be broken.

With that in mind I have two questions:

Do you want the verses to be of different lengths?

Usually verses are the same length but its not compulsory. If they are of different lengths then you need music to go with the additional lines. Do you use the same melody for those lines or not?

Do you want the pre-chorus to go before the second verse?

Usually the pre-chorus is an introduction to the chorus. Again that is not compulsory, but is a lot odder than a longer second verse.


The message of your song seems to be "I'll take the risk". If that's your intention it should be in the chorus not the pre-chorus.

I'm also having a problem with your grammar. If you are way up high you can see it all as you are in the present. If you have seen it all that is the past. So "I'm way up high, I've seen it all" to be grammatically correct would be "I've seen it all before" or "I was way up high".

Same with the second line "there" is the past, "here" the present.

I like the image of you in the sky and plunging down, it produces very strong images in my head. The words just need tidying up a little.

I think the pre-chorus is weak and doesn't do anything but repeat what's in the chorus. The pre should set up the chorus not merely repeat it.

The chorus is a little awkward, particularly the line "the dangers safe". "My danger's safe" or Your danger's safe" would still be awkward but slightly better.

I'd be tempted to add "I'll take the risk" after "I won't let go" and repeat it twice. If you do the first two lines of the chorus should be stronger to set up the punch line.

I think your lyrics have potential. I hope you take my suggestions in the spirit intended.

Keith



Sea

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« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2017, 09:38:06 AM »
thank you Keith for feedback...lm so pleased someone replied .... l knew l would get help on this forum ..it was  good constructive feedback for me to look at..you looked at it objectively and closely which l really appreciate, as l haven't wrote a single song lyric in my life :)

the words was written really really quickly,  very tiny verses....no layout plan what so ever... plus lm finding it hard to get away from poetic type prose,which l write on a daily basis ( can anyone give me tips how to do that)... sol  just scribbled this one off and put it straight on to the forum, so its very messy..lv so much to learn about songwriting, but lm really enjoying the studying/journey :)

thank you. All feedback it so welcome..its the way we all learn..so no worries to anyone thinking lm going to be  upset about anyone's feedback .If its rubbish, its rubbish, l need know so l can learn..if it has potential,  as a starting point, l need to know so l can work on it..we all have to start some where and lm on the bottom of the learning ladder and l want to learn :)

all the best and thank you, l really appreciate  it. .

hope l get some more replies as well to add to yours for me to work on..... come on peeps...is it worth me working on this song theme idea ? :)


Sea

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« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2017, 11:54:03 AM »
lol, doesnt look as if anyone else is going to be brave enough and give me anymore honest feedback to add to yours  Keith.

 Now lv woken up properly ( I'm not a morning person lol) Keith, l will go and look at your helpful reply, get my note book out and and look in depth at what you advise. In my opinion all advice(good as well as bad) is good advise, when learning songwriting.

l feel lm trying to run before l can walk when it comes to this songwriting journey lol. l feel lm learning the ingredients to a  'recipe'     but not learning /understanding yet the 'order and process ' it should go in... its hard but l'll learn if me kills me lol..l love a challenge and l love lyrics.

l  so need to do a online songwriting course, but its just not possible so l'll just keep on learning as l go along. 
thank you again Keith for helping me....

diademgrove

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« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2017, 02:25:40 PM »
Before jumping into a songwriting course I'd advise you to take 5 of your favourite songs and write out the words.

Identify the verses, the chorus, the pre-chorus (if there is one) and the bridge/middle 8 (again there may not be one).

Then read the words out loud to see how they flow in your head. No singing and definitely no singing along to the song.

This will give you some idea of the structure of the songs you like. How story is built. What sticks out. What role the chorus plays.

Make a note of any obvious differences between the songs.

Yes there are rules to be learnt but songwriting comes down to how good the initial idea is. If the idea is good it can be expressed in many ways, not all of them according to the rules. Five of our favourite songs is a good place to start.

Hope this helps, let me know how you get on.

Keith


Darren1664

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« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2017, 05:24:12 PM »
Hi sea

First off welcome to the forum!! :)

Kieth's reply is excellent so it will be hard for me to add much to it. Reading your lyrics I would say definitely yes to having potential! In fact I thought they were good as they are...some editing needed perhaps! For a first write it's promising stuff.

I think there are many different approaches to song writing. I think some write the lyrics then the melody and music and for others it's the other way around and again for some it some mingle of the two. For me most of the lyrics I write come spur of the moment as I play the guitar. This often means that the lyrics don't always have much structure as I have written them to fit whatever it I am playing. Some of my songs have no real verse or chorus but just a long ramble of words - does it work? I dunno :P my point being that, as Keith says, yes there are rules but they can certainly be broken and if the words above were written with melody in mind and that melody is a corker then it could be that your words have nailed it.

I think you have a nice set of words to play around with there and just keep at it.

The more you write the better you'll get :) and you may come back to these in years and go you know what I'll rewrite this :P

OK! I realise my reply isn't useful :P

Anyway...be patient too! Many forum goers are quite busy and may take a little time to review so hang in there ;)

All the best
Darren

Sea

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« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2017, 07:17:07 PM »
Thank you Darren and Keith, and also  for the welcome..its much appreciated :)

Good idea about taking 5 songs and noting how they are formatted. l did that last night from one of my favorite female songwriter Artist, Kate Bush. I'm inspired by so many, but l thought l'd start with her work first.

l spent a few hrs this afternoon going over the tips you gave me Keith, so very helpful.
l took another look at my lyrics, so with your notes l  straight away saw where/why my lyrics wasn't working, so thank you, it's really ,really helped. lv so much to learn about songwriting, what a  challenge lv got about lyric form before l get it right :) l haven't even learnt all the lyric terminology yet..ll have to buy more A4 writing paper and a bigger file lol.

l also did a search on the internet and watched a few You Tube channels on songwriting, which lv selected a few to subscribe too. There are quite a few  excellent ones that seem to be really full of informative information.

 What a process this songwriting is, l had no idea lol. Hard work but so much fun and lm getting a real sense of satisfaction when l study it. Onward and upwards lol. l'll be a Lyricist if it kills me lol.

Also l found on the Berklee collage page that there are some free downloads from  excellent Pat Pattison's book on lyric writing. l took a quick look and they appear to be excellent for beginners like me.
if anyone  reading this post is a beginner also ,here's the link, you might find them useful as well.

https://online.berklee.edu/store/product?product%5fid=11127&usca%5fp=t

thank you again Keith and Darren.







hardtwistmusic

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« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2017, 04:46:19 AM »
Two "first impression" thoughts.  

1.  This is a great start, but not yet a lyric.  Needs to flow from something (or somewhere, or sometime) TO something else, (or some other place or some other time.)  

2.  Work this until it says the same basic things but with a few more rhymes.  I love lyrics when not every line is a perfect rhyme.  I love lyrics when some lines don't rhyme at all.  But too much of a good thing is a bad thing.  

You've written down the start, now it's time to spend some time "crafting" the lyric.  For many songs, "crafting the song" is 90% of the work of songwriting. 

Good luck.  I think this can be crafted into a wonderful song.  
« Last Edit: July 28, 2017, 04:48:32 AM by hardtwistmusic »
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Jenna

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« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2017, 06:35:20 AM »
What I've learned so far about "the rulez" . . . Maybe helpful, may not, but I thought I'd put it out there in case it helps focus the intent of your lyrics . . .

1) The verses deliver the story, one building upon the next so that each one shares a little bit more of the central theme or idea of the lyrics.

2) The prechorus sits between the verse and the chorus to raise the energy leading up to the chorus. It's often called the "lift" for this reason.

3) The chorus delivers the central idea of the song with a yet higher level of energy than the verse and prechorus. It's a temporary climax in energy in the song where we expect to feel the emotional impact after all of that buildup that came before, and will drop again after to another verse. That gives the resolution of tension we crave after the buildup.

4) The bridge comes in about 2/3 of the way through the song to add variety, more information for the storyline or the big reveal if it's been strategically kept hidden until this point, after which another verse and chorus can be delivered at an even higher level of energy for a homerun and final song climax.

There's more to it, but that's the general "commercial hit" song format in a nutshell. It's described as having three major energy peaks, each getting higher than the one that came before with the last being the biggest one, none of them resolving to the original low energy point at the beginning of the song except maybe the very end. Apparently, that's the big payoff for the listener that leaves them satisfied and willing to come back for another listen (along with a good hook, singable chorus before the end of the first line, etc., etc.).

Another good exercise might be to define your message. What is it you want your listener to hear, experience, know after listening to your song? Get that down and sketch out a storyline that leads up to it piece by piece using each section of the song to reveal another important detail. Remember the who, what, when, where, why and how of writing anything and everything under the sun. Those questions need answering. Who is saying this? Who is this person saying it to? What are they saying? How did they get to the point where this needed addressed/acknowledged/revealed? When is it being said? Where? Of course, every sensory detail that can be included to set the scene makes the lyrics come alive to the listener, palpable so they can feel it, taste it, touch it. Try to leave the listener hanging at the end of each section, wanting to hear what comes next, build that tension or suspense if you can. Ever since learning this, I'm seeing a song as an emotional rollercoaster, one where you dangle expectantly at the top of each hill anxiously anticipating the next belly rush coming your way.

Now mind you, this is all from book learning focused on commercial songwriting, not experience, because I'm just starting out, too, and have taken to scouring as much info as I can find on the topic from blogs to books to FREE courses online. There's a link here to a very good one if you're interested. It's in the resources section of the forum. My focus at the moment is the commercial format because it seems as good a place as any to get started. I'm of the mind a person needs to learn the rules to know when, where and how to break them, but that's nothing more than a personal opinion. Everybody has their own style and their own unique voice.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2017, 09:30:09 AM by Jenna »

diademgrove

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« Reply #9 on: July 28, 2017, 07:23:46 AM »
Hi Sea,

Kate Bush is an interesting choice. I hope you picked some of her more conventional (in song writing terms) songs. Babooshka has a great chorus and 2 verses. It may have a pre-chorus as well but its difficult to tell with Kate. The verses may be of different lengths as well.

Once you know the rules go back to Kate and marvel at the way she breaks the rules for the benefit of the song.

If you want traditional verse, chorus, middle 8/bridge pick a ton of Beatle songs or classic country and western. 

Hope this helps.

Keith

Jenna

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« Reply #10 on: July 28, 2017, 07:35:15 AM »
Or pop music. Kate Bush is a good rule breaker? I'll have to give her a listen. What other tracks might be good to get a sense of how it's done? Did I give bad advice?

Sea, Berklee also offers a free course on Songwriting at Coursera.org. A new session starts every eight weeks but you can jump in any time you want. I'm working through it right now and am almost finished with the second week. Since I didn't pay for the course I can't get grades for my quizzes or reviews of my work from other students. Maybe we could team up and help each other through it. I'd be open to studying through it with you. It's much more effective to learn something with others than flying solo. Let me know what you think.

https://www.coursera.org/learn/songwriting-lyrics/home/welcome

« Last Edit: July 28, 2017, 07:44:13 AM by Jenna »

Jenna

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« Reply #11 on: July 28, 2017, 09:31:01 AM »
Eek. I did give bad advice, so I've deleted that part until I get the details straight in my mind. I could use a study buddy for this course. ;)


Sea

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« Reply #12 on: July 28, 2017, 11:01:58 AM »
Thank you to everyone who responded. l really appreciate  it :)

lm analyzing different Artists Songwriting each day in my study time .

Yesterday it was Muse. l know that a lot of Artists co write , so l do my research on them before hand. Hubby bought me some great study books on the History of Recording Artists. Unfortunately l went and packed them all away while waiting to move house. l haven't the energy to unpack them all again at the moment lol.


l love the idea of a study buddy Jenna.
lm trying to study a few hours each morning and few hrs in the evening, in between my heavy work load.

 We are selling our property and relocating to a new area and this house move sale is so stressful at the moment. l hope to have everything settled by the Autumn. If the move goes on longer than that l will be pulling my hair out.

My plan is to my research/study of Songwriting all through the Winter, then do a online Lyricist Course next Spring :)

   

diademgrove

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« Reply #13 on: July 28, 2017, 12:46:44 PM »
Or pop music. Kate Bush is a good rule breaker? I'll have to give her a listen. What other tracks might be good to get a sense of how it's done? Did I give bad advice?



I don't think you gave bad advice. In fact I thought it was all good advice and am surprised you've changed it.

I suggest you start with The Dreaming and Get Out Of My House by Kate Bush. I think both songs are excellent and don't fit into the usual verse, chorus middle 8 formula.

Here's the links





Enjoy,

Keith

Jenna

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« Reply #14 on: July 28, 2017, 03:32:02 PM »
Or pop music. Kate Bush is a good rule breaker? I'll have to give her a listen. What other tracks might be good to get a sense of how it's done? Did I give bad advice?



I don't think you gave bad advice. In fact I thought it was all good advice and am surprised you've changed it.

I suggest you start with The Dreaming and Get Out Of My House by Kate Bush. I think both songs are excellent and don't fit into the usual verse, chorus middle 8 formula.

Here's the links





Enjoy,

Keith


It was bad advice! Backward. I had the mistaken understanding that instability stopped the flow of the lyrics, but it actually moves them forward by making the listener wanting something more. My whole understanding of the use of rhyme and rhythm was basically upside down, so instead of trying to rewrite that paragraph I just removed it. Not a huge change. ;) But I did feel the need to take out the inaccurate bits of info.

Thanks for the links. Heading out to give them a listen.