The Cheese Factor

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Jenna

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« on: July 15, 2017, 05:04:35 AM »
How does it come about? What are the required qualities that make a song cheesy to the point it makes you cringe inside?

I have no answer for this, but I managed to create a super cheesy song today that made me cringe when played. Ew. So I switched keys from C major to D# minor (is this an actual key?) and that seems to have done the trick. It was a kind of love song with an upbeat tune, and that along with the composition in C major was just way too sugary or something. I much prefer this version with a few sour notes here and there. It makes it sound like a less stable, sort of crazy person love song instead. Does that make me an odd duck?

I see cheese mentioned here and there on the forum, and assume this is something to avoid with fervor. I'm just not sure how to avoid writing cheese in the first place, if that's at all possible.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2017, 05:07:09 AM by Jenna »

Yodasdad

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« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2017, 11:14:34 AM »
I think cheeseyness has a lot to do with cliche, taking the simplest option and predictability.

Certain things have been done over and over and become cheesey when they are heard again. This can include lyrics, chord sequences, riffs etc.

People consciously or subconsciously expect a certain thing to happen and when it does it's 'yeah, thought so, cheesey'

The fact that c major is the easiest key to write in for beginner musicians (not taking different instruments into account such as guitar which is probably E) combined with the fact that they are the most likely to repeat what they've heard and take the simplest route could be why it sounded particularly cheesey in C.

Technically D# minor exists but it's correct name is Eb minor. By using this key instead you will have changed the whole flavour of the song. Using minor instead of major makes a big difference. Combine this with the fact that minor generally sounds less happy and sweet and cheesey is often associated with just this, is probably why it worked.

Yodasdad

Ps I am going to reply to your email, honest.

Paulski

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« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2017, 04:02:20 PM »
Hmmm... interesting question.
To me, cliche is an acceptable comment on a song/lyric, but "cheezy" is not.
Cheezy is used too many times by ppl who think they know what sounds cool, hip, current, whatever.
Some genres by their very nature sound nostalgic, melancholy, old-fashioned - like Christmas music or old pop. They often attract the cheezy word so, in fact, the comment is disparaging an entire genre, and that's not cool. ;D ;D

Bottom line - make your best song and don't worry about it being cheezy  ;D ;D

Paul

Jenna

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« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2017, 05:38:16 PM »
Interesting. The cliche' thing never occurred to me but I suppose it probably fits. I wouldn't even know where to begin critiquing a musical composition as something cliche. Nostalgia could possibly fit, too, as it kind of struck me as something out of the 70s for some reason - as in The Brady Bunch style of cheesiness. <shudder>  Changing the key added a little extra tension that it needed. The song starts out as a young woman lamenting the late arrival of her husband and ends with them making love on the floor when he does get home. I can't say that the lyrics are cliche. I've uploaded a roughed instrumental version to Soundcloud.

When are you Coming Home?

When are you coming home
to be with me in our new haven.
I've been waiting all day long
Thinking of you with anticipation.

Wine is chilled. Dinner's on.
Candles glowing in every window.
My love for you is written on
Every detail of this evening.

Hearts beating faster
when you walk through the door
Wrap your love around me
and tumble to the floor.

Silk caress, velvet kiss
Entangled in bliss-filled elation.
My heart soars when I
see those love-struck eyes
gazing at me as we satisfy desires.

To be continued . . .

Where's the cheese?  :D

Sidenote -> I made this recording last night using just the laptop speakers on a low volume setting and could hardly hear the bass, but it apparently was louder than I realized in the final mix. That's easy enough to fix. I can upload a version in C major, too, if that helps pinpoint the cheese problem. Maybe it's not cheese at all, but a simple mismatch of musical tones with the lyrics.

BTW -> I heard some news last night that Soundcloud only has enough money to continue operations for another 50 days. Grab copies of your music if you don't already have them.

Yodasdad - what email?  :D


« Last Edit: July 15, 2017, 07:21:33 PM by Jenna »

PaulyX

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« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2017, 11:28:49 AM »
Great thread Jenna, it's something I think a lot about too, since at present I am abandoning about half of my lyrics because they end up with that whiff of fromage about them.  Somehow a lot of my lyrics end up sounding like they are written by a 'chirpy cockney character' - I'm not sure who he is but he annoys me sometimes when he won't leave me alone!  I think there is a big crossover between 'cheesy' and 'twee' too, and if you try and introduce a bit of humour into your songs you can easily stray into the 'twee' territory.

I fully agree with Paulski and YD that a lot of it is to do with cliche, especially in lyrics.

I also think that part of cheesiness comes from 'lack of nuance' in the message.  I tend to find songs that are either relentlessly positive, or relentlessly negative, feel a bit cheesy to me.  Maybe that is a cynical British thing, but I often find that introducing a bit of ambiguity into lyrics can offset the cheese... a bit of melancholic imagery amongst the positives for example.  Maybe because that's how life tends to be, it can make songs feel more realistic and less contrived.

As for your track in progress, so far I got zero cheese from the instrumental melody, and not much from the lyrics either, so I wouldn't be worrying too much about it.  To my mind the closest it gets to cheese so far is the imagery in the second verse with the chilled wine and candles, that's just a slightly 'icky' and predictable image to me.  It's not extreme though and I probably wouldn't have picked up on it in other threads, it's only because you've specifically asked about cheesiness in this discussion.   Sounds like you've made a good call to 'host' these words in a minor key, since I reckon the melody will help offset any potential overkill on the romantic images. 

Good luck with the rest of this song and it'll be good to keep discussing the cause (and cure) for cliche / cheese / tweeness in this thread.  Maybe we could list up the cheesiest commercial tracks we can think of and work out WHY we find them so cheesy?  James Blunt's "Your Beautiful" is the Grand Fromage for me...!
It's all too beautiful.

Yodasdad

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« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2017, 11:52:42 AM »
Actually,

Pauly's pet hate of You're beautiful by James blunt is a good example of why cheese isn't always a bad thing.

That song was absolutely HUGE over here and made a hell of a lot of money. It's still used a lot on tv/adverts.

If commercial success is what you're after, rightly or wrongly, sometimes a bit (or a lot) of cheese is exactly what sells and what people are looking for.

Yodasdad

Jenna

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« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2017, 05:34:54 PM »
I never thought much about that James Blunt tune in relation to cheese. Frankly, I don't think of any tune in terms of its relative cheesiness. It just struck me when I was listening to that particular track running the lyrics through my head, it just screamed out cheese.

What is it that makes the James Blunt tune so popular anyway? From the commercial perspective - it makes women feel good . . . it's a singable . . .  it has a positive message . . . it has a predictable chorus . . . and it has a male with a high voice delivering it. All of that seems to be in vogue at the moment. But I can see what you're saying about the cliche factor with the lyrics. And now that you point it out as an example, I want to spread it on my crackers. I'll never hear it the same again.  :D

Well, I'm glad that I cured the ailment in my own with the key change. Believe me, if you heard it in C major,  it would make your skin crawl. I could easily switch it back for an example if anyone is interested.

As far as posting up commercial examples of cheesy songs, I hear 70s era pop or early Beatles tunes, and most definitely John Denver, who I liked, but I can say that most of what he wrote may as well have been shipped encased in red wax rinds.  Sunshine on my Shoulders anyone? 

PaulyX

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« Reply #7 on: July 18, 2017, 09:56:34 AM »
This thread has really got me thinking and analysing.

I didn't know that "Sunshine on my Shoulders" track Jenna, and checked it out.  My cheese alarm didn't go off too badly in fact, possibly because I've never heard the song before.  It made me realise that over-familiarity is maybe another cause of cheese.  A bit like the first time a DJ played "YMCA" at a wedding and everyone did the dance, it wouldn't have been cheesy, but now it would be, because its been done soooo many times.  Maybe sometimes it is not the song itself but the overexposure it gets.

Which brings me back to James Blunt!  Disclaimers first: As YD rightly says, it was a million-seller and Mr Blunt for sure does not need any lessons in song writing from someone like me who has never made a single penny from his music.  I also don't have a problem with JB himself - I quite liked his follow up song "1973". And one person's cheese is probably another person's classic genius. BUT... that "You're Beautiful" song still brings me out in hives.  I analysed my reaction last night and partly it is overexposure (there was a time when you couldn't escape the damn thing on the radio...) but it is also definitely the song itself.  Take the first verse and chorus:

My life is brilliant, my love is pure
I saw an angel of that I'm sure
She smiled at me on the subway
She was with another man
But I won't lose no sleep on that 'cause I've got a plan
You're beautiful, You're beautiful, You're beautiful, it's true
I saw your face in a crowded place and I don't know what to do
'Cause I'll never be with you

My issues with it are 1) the predictable rhymes (man/plan, true/do etc), 2) the laziness of the contradictory lyrics if you think about them for a millisecond, e.g. "I've got a plan" then 2 lines later "I don't know what to do..." - well it's not much of a plan then is it James?!, 3) the lack of interesting story in the entire song (a guy sees a pretty girl in a train and then... nothing at all happens). 2 + 3 are probably not the cause of cheese in themselves, they are just lazy writing... but I think that amplifies the cheese, or at least fails to counteract it.  I'd probably forgive predictable rhymes if there was something interesting going on in the story for example.

So maybe what we've got so far as cheese-causing culprits are:
A. Use of cliche (lyrics or music)
B. Predictability (especially of rhymes, also of music)
C. One-dimensional overly happy or sad emotions without nuance (which could come from the music itself, like your 'C Major" version you say)
D. Overexposure / overfamiliarity of the song

I'm getting the feeling you can get away with SOME of these in a song but not ALL of them (which is why I was OK with "Sunshine on Your Shoulders" - for me it had lots of 'C' and a bit of 'B', but not much 'A' and zero 'D' as I'd never heard it).
OK, I'm ranting.  Sorry.  I will now listen to "You're Beautiful" on repeat for an hour as penance.
It's all too beautiful.

PaulyX

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« Reply #8 on: July 18, 2017, 10:01:58 AM »
Oh and by the way, I just noticed my own message footer and just wanted to clarify that it's a quote from The Small Faces, not a further dig at James Blunt!  I'm not that traumatised by his song...
It's all too beautiful.

Jenna

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« Reply #9 on: July 18, 2017, 10:10:39 PM »
 :D

Too funny. No need to beat yourself up over taking the time to analyze something in depth. I'm finding it helpful as this is something that's really hard to identify. I think for me it's more of the nostalgia angle - like 1970s polyester pantsuits worn by used car salesmen. Maybe the elements you're identifying are prevalent in the music of that era and something that subconsciously sets off the cringe reaction.

There's also the possibility of an incongruence between the message and the way it's delivered - like a fake delivery with no sincerity for impact.

Sunshine on my Shoulders makes me think of a song written by a child - and maybe it was. John Denver was pretty young starting out. It's a very simple tune. It has too much repetition, not enough meat. I love acoustic arpeggiation, but in this song puts that sappiness factor over-the-top. Now take those three things and add in the overplayed factor. The result is an unsalted fromage blanc on white toast in comparison to an aged cheddar with cabernet sauvignon.