[Martinswede]

Hi all buskers and mere mortals!

The best songwriting advice I've got so far is to re-write. To make writing a process and not just some spontaneous and funny thing that I do when I feel like it. This has made me work on the songs much more/longer and I've gotten more of a multi-dimensional view of it. At this point I can't say if I've gotten better but it sure feels more like a home cooked meal.

Are any of you familiar with the experience that you finally kind of got it?
Some insight in that it is not impossible to get better if you just change your point of view and that what held you back was in no way written in stone? (Mostly anxiety).

All of this is just semi-religious ramblings but I'd say that if I can get a better writing flow going then many others should be very capable of the same.

Martin

[Boydie]

I think the discovery that there is such a thing as "song craft" can be quite an eye opener

Some feel that it "ruins" the spontaneous nature of songwriting and that apply "rules" is wrong

However, song craft is so much more than that and there are lots of techniques to ensure your song packs the biggest emotional punch possible

A good time for my mantra:

Songs are written
Good songs are "re-written"
Great songs are re-writes of good songs

[Wicked Deeds]

I hear your mantra Boydie and know it has great worth, especially in modern commercial writing but I think some writers instinctively nail the lyrics, harmony and melody pretty much first time round. They craft their  lyrics as they go, ensuring that the lyrics skilfully embrace rhythms and chord progressions.  Maybe they tweak their songs a little but I think they have written so many good songs that's their craft is exceptionally advanced and their task is not a difficult one.   I'm thinking of people like Roddy Frame.  He's no longer a writer who resides in the charts but he is for me one of the most advanced writers on the planet.  His writing gets better and better despite a lifetime in the music industry. He doesn't appear jaded or that he's running out of ideas.  His powers don't seem to fade. He simply improves and explores his craft with each new album.  

Production plays such a big role in modern chart success.  It is in my opinion, something quite different to writing, though many would argue that it is now an integral part of being a songwriter.   I can't help differentiate the two disciplines.  To me, production is  like a suit of clothes that a song wears.  I also think it's a skill that many writers may hand over to someone else. Their business, as I see it is writing songs: lyrics, harmony and melody, I think it's great when a seasoned songwriter can demonstrate their craft with a single instrument, to accompany their voice.  Anyway, that's how I see it.

Paul

[Oldbutyet]

Bullshit, songwriting is not a art nor a craft, its the flow.

The writing process, Bullshit   

[Jenna]

Which is your ear - lyrical or musical? Maybe lyrical writers have a process and musical and doubly-gifted writers have a flow.

-> I know nothing. I'm just a girl with keyboard and some spare time.

[Oldbutyet]

I know nothing. I'm just a guy with acoustic and some spare time   

[Oldbutyet]

Tell me is this Bullshit or reality 

[Jenna]

Tell me is this Bullshit or reality  

 

Not fair using a Hollywood production and asking for someone to out themselves as a loon by commenting one way or the other.

Squeal! Squeal like a pig!

Great scene. Love the older man clog dancing to their jam.

[Oldbutyet]

Ar damn i never thought of myself as a loon    and yes you're right "Hollywood production"   

[Jenna]

As I understand it, the boy there really did play that piece so you win the prize. He's got the flow down.

[Viscount Cramer & His Orchestra]

I think working on a song for a time is a good thing...not necessarily what I'd call a rewrite, but a refinement. I listen to the song over and over....literally and playing through my head when i'm not physically listening. i'm looking for improvements I could make maybe in a lyrical or musical phrase.....maybe just one better word.....a better transition between parts...a bigger chorus...whatever. I might never find it but it's got to be worth the time surely.

I don't subscribe to the idea that a song can be dashed off in an afternoon. The whole general idea maybe but not as a finished song. The notion that a song is better because it's spontaneous and delivered with emotion doesn't carry weight for me. I don't think even very good seasoned writers go about it like this. If they do, and they come up with something great then they're very lucky indeed.

I'm glad you've come to this point Martin. You've posted some good ideas which wouldn't need much to make them better. Surely the songs are worth spending time on?

Just my opinion of course.

[Oldbutyet]

One of the most interesting thing about writing is adding to it.

It can tell a hell of a story, and song of flow   

[Martinswede]

I'd say since I no longer go from start to finish in a chronological order of how the song will be played I can work on verse/B/Chorus simultaneously instead of finding a word that rhymes with 'cucumber' or what ever. That used to get me stuck. My beginners mistake nr 1.

The word flow seems to describe a process that has its own engine. You let the music come to you. But unless there is a potential copyright issue ahead that flow and inspiration is You. Giving up the idea that you'll ever get that flow again might be the best way to start learning how to work with your writing.

'Great songs are re-writes of good songs'. There can be no defined line between working and re-writing except that at some point the writer thinks he/she is finished and then changes his/her mind.

[Boydie]

I don't know where the "production" thing came from - I am talking about just the "song"

I would class refining lyrics as you go along, changing a lyric, "tweaking" the song, "adding to it" - all as re-writes

I do appreciate there are many different approaches to writing - but there are some definite themes within the "cries for help" posted in this forum, which does appear to lead to a "recommended" process for those that don't have their own "flow" yet

I think the most common "issue" we see is people struggling to complete a song and end up with a gazillion half written songs

The advice here is to just write the song - get it finished

Don't get hung up on perfect rhymes, imagery or melody etc. Just get it finished

This is often the easy bit

As some have mentioned the "re-writing" can often happen simultaneously with the writing but there is a school of thought that say you should just "go with the flow" at the creative / writing / ideas stage and get everything down - don't let the "critical" part of the brain join this party

Once you have "the song" then you can concentrate on making it "better" - which may involve re-writing all or parts - or it may even involve deciding you like the original, raw, version - the fact that you have stepped back and consciously considered it arguably still counts as a re-write

This leads to the other common issue - when is a song "finished"

In reality a songwriter rarely sees a song as finished - it is just at its latest "re-write" version

[Wicked Deeds]

The 'production' thing came from my humble attempt to engage in this conversation and define what the writing process is!

Paul