konalavadome

Songs and key flexibility

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Skub

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« on: April 22, 2017, 03:51:50 PM »
Tina,in one of her reviews on a track of ours,inadvertently raised this subject and I thought it may help some others,or even provoke a bit of discussion. You never know where these things go when you toss them out there.

Because I mostly write in isolation,then work with others to expand and evolve the original idea,I frequently run into the problem of a suitable key for the vocalist being different to the one used to write and record a song.

Quite often the song will require starting all over again and I don't know about you lot,but once I have an idea out and recorded,I don't have the same enthusiasm second time around. Add this to the fact that sometimes changing the key utterly changes the feel and sound of the song. This is especially true for guitar players and guitar based songs,if a lot of open strings have been used in riffs/solos etc. Using a capo can preserve some of the original tone,but only for the first 3 or four frets,then it goes all mandolin on yo ass.

To address this and to reduce the workload necessitated by redoing a song,I thought we could try something different. (for us,anyway)
What we tried this time was,I leave out my vocals and vocal melody and Fiona puts her own tune to the words,this way key doesn't matter,since she can choose a melody that suits her range. This process goes a lot smoother if Fiona doesn't hear my melody to confuse or give her preconceived ideas,though often it's the only way to discover if she does like the key.  :D

'Memories',our current track in finished songs is the first attempt using this method. From my point of it's oddly disconcerting at first to hear the song with a different tune,but after a while your ears get used to it. It's the preconceived idea thing again.

I'd be interested to hear if others have used a similar method in their writing process,or what other ways are available to skin the cat.

CaliaMoko

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« Reply #1 on: April 22, 2017, 04:05:43 PM »
Not exactly the same, but I once provided vocals for a song that already had a melody that went right out of my range. The songwriter invited me to sing it my "own way". I kept the basic melody but changed the parts that went too high for me. He loved it. I thought it sounded like I was singing harmony with no accompanying melody line, at first. But I got used to it. :)

Another time, I was collaborating with another writer who started the venture by laying an instrumental track for me to work with. I don't even know if he had a melody line in mind, but I came up with one that matched his instrumental.

pompeyjazz

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« Reply #2 on: April 22, 2017, 04:28:33 PM »
Is it not possible to pitch shift the backing track to suit the vocalist ? Just a thought

CaliaMoko

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« Reply #3 on: April 22, 2017, 06:06:46 PM »
Is it not possible to pitch shift the backing track to suit the vocalist ? Just a thought
I have done this and, in my experience, if I don't shift it too far (a half step or a whole step), it works pretty well. If I move it more than that, it starts to sound, umm, not quite right. Especially if it includes background vocals.

tone

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« Reply #4 on: April 22, 2017, 07:56:16 PM »
It's not just guitars that sound odd if you change the key of your song too far. I frequently write songs out of my range because I have a tendency to take the melody higher in the chorus, and start the verse in my comfortable middle range... So about half my songs end up being transposed down after they're written, and after I've got used to the way they sound in the original key.

Aside from being a really good routine for practising transposition by ear, it's amazing how much difference 2 or more tones make, even on the piano. The song just doesn't sound the same. Sometimes, I never get used to it, but most of the time, the vocal improvements justify the 'loss' of something in the original.

I think you've come up with a good solution though skub - I would not be happy rerecording a whole song just because I needed to change key after the effect.
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Skub

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« Reply #5 on: April 22, 2017, 09:24:03 PM »
Is it not possible to pitch shift the backing track to suit the vocalist ? Just a thought

Nah,unless you've discovered something I've overlooked John,any digital pitch shifting just sounds wrong,you can hear it a mile off. It's like autotune on your whole song.  :o

pompeyjazz

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« Reply #6 on: April 22, 2017, 09:35:50 PM »
I agree, anything over or under one tone starts to sound pretty weird. Back to the drawing board then  ??? Just tried it on a couple of songs. Like Micky Mouse on acid. NOT a good idea

tina m

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« Reply #7 on: April 22, 2017, 10:12:20 PM »
Omg its a guitar players nightmare when you have to change the key bcos of the 'superstar' singer....the riff doesnt work anymore, the solo goes off the fretboard & youre in a key you never play in ...thank goodness Im both the singer & the guitarist now!!
but surely you are used to Fionas range by now Davy & can write for it?

I still occaisonally hit this problem tho,
just about everything I do starts as a instrumental, but as I know my range exactly its usually ok but last year with my song 'Im a  Blob' I added extra bits to it & the singer in me needed to change the key but the guitar player in me totally refused , so I tried the pitch changer thing on the guitars & bass...Jambrains reviewed it as the worst rhythm guitar sound hed ever heard ...yes he was right!  ;D

I also did it some years ago on a song that had  a guitar solo id played that wouldve gone off the fretboard if id changed the key so I used the pitch changer & it sounded ok
but somebody listened to it & asked me how many frets I had on my guitar? ...so I said 27...he was well impressed  ;D

« Last Edit: April 23, 2017, 09:32:40 AM by tinam »
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Wicked Deeds

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« Reply #8 on: April 22, 2017, 10:24:53 PM »
I'm fairly lucky that I instinctively write within my vocal range, though now and then,  there are one or two notes that I struggle with.  I used to deliberately write beyond my range as The band that I played in and wrote for had the most amazing vocalist.  

Thinking about this problem from a guitarists position - why not, tune the guitar to match the vocalist (within reason so that the strings don't break. There aren't any rules that's say you have to play at concert pitch.  

Alternatively, tune to concert pitch and write a melody that's you can convey to a singer who has a better range than yourself.  It may be uncomfortable to sing during the writing stage but as long as your vocalist can reproduce that melody comfortably, it will work every time - I wrote many songs like that for over 30 years for both bands that I wrote for: 'Goodbye Hayley Mills' and 'The Vanity Rules'.  

Alternatively, I'd suggest writing a Chord progression - record it on your DAW and then play  the vocal melody on piano for the singer to learn.  Hope the suggestions prove useful.

Paul

adamfarr

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« Reply #9 on: April 23, 2017, 08:12:53 AM »
Yup, it's a conundrum, even within the same person. I just ended up re-recording something in Ab because the vocal melody was far too low. So I've got a Capo on the 4th fret and I seem to lose all the richness of the acoustic. So I layer in another track with everything tuned down a semitone and spend half the night trying to get the two lined up... And the BVs are now looking like they're going off the fretboard...

It's always a compromise but in reality the vocal melody is probably always going to win because that's where the core of the song sits. So I guess if I had another regular singer then I would let them lead on that too...

Yodasdad

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« Reply #10 on: April 23, 2017, 10:17:59 AM »
I have this problem all the time. I write the song in whatever key the idea comes to me in and usually end up finding that I can't sing it.

My voice is my biggest problem. I've got quite a narrow range where I think my voice actually sounds okay and I naturally tend to write melodies with a very large range. I think I've got delusions that I'm Steven Tyler or something.

I usually end up having to transpose to a key that is the best fit. Usually down to a point where I can just about manage to sing the highs without the instrumental part losing all integrity and feeling.

Everything I record is digital apart from the vocals so this helps but if you're not careful you can easily start taking instruments well out of their real life range and they just sound wrong.

The song I currently have posted is pitched down 4 semitones from where it started out. I still have to go into falsetto at one point to get the melody in and I think the digital bass gutar may play a low Eb which i know is outside the normal range of a bass.

In theory, there's no difference between one key and another but in reality, the whole timbre of an instrument changes. I find this is a particular problem with digital instruments because the limited number of samples that were used to record it don't allow the same flexibility that a real player of the instrument would be able to achieve.

I haven't really come up with a solution. Now that I'm more aware of it, I can try to rectify things before the songs finished and I have to do a complete do-over, but it's still a real pain in the orras.

Yodasdad

CaliaMoko

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« Reply #11 on: April 23, 2017, 02:29:44 PM »
The song I currently have posted is pitched down 4 semitones from where it started out. I still have to go into falsetto at one point to get the melody in and I think the digital bass gutar may play a low Eb which i know is outside the normal range of a bass.
A guitar, though, is easy in this case, since you can tune it a half step low in order to reach that Eb.

boolio

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« Reply #12 on: April 24, 2017, 08:22:01 AM »
Quote from: Yodasdad

Quote
My voice is my biggest problem. I've got quite a narrow range where I think my voice actually sounds okay and I naturally tend to write melodies with a very large range. I think I've got delusions that I'm Steven Tyler or something.

I usually end up having to transpose to a key that is the best fit. Usually down to a point where I can just about manage to sing the highs without the instrumental part losing all integrity and feeling.

I have a similar (ish) problem although I don't have any range where my voice actually approaches what I would describe as singing on top of this I have to always write high (or transpose high) as my lows have zero power. However starting high invariably results in a portion of the vocal (usually the chorus) sounding like I'm throttling a cat because I've gone way beyond my own (and the listeners ;D) comfort zone!

Added to this I totally agree, if you do change key often the melody does lose 'integrity and feeling'

Great fun this song writing malarkey sometimes!!  :) :)

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Ramshackles

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« Reply #13 on: April 25, 2017, 07:30:42 AM »
I pretty much mainly write for a female voice (since our singer is a girl) which involves a lot of transposition!
Some things I do to stop stuff from getting all high and weird:

- Transpose before figuring out any arrangement...the key change can then help inform the arrangement
- Play with different tunings on the guitar. Tuning to open G, D, G/C etc can help keep things on the guitar a bit lower and put some 'space' between the guitar parts and the higher female voice.

I always have problems with writing stuff out of my range aswell, and that sounds awful when I sing it. Luckily, I just hand it off to someone who can  ;D

hardtwistmusic

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« Reply #14 on: April 28, 2017, 01:54:43 AM »


To address this and to reduce the workload necessitated by redoing a song,I thought we could try something different. (for us,anyway)
What we tried this time was,I leave out my vocals and vocal melody and Fiona puts her own tune to the words,this way key doesn't matter,since she can choose a melody that suits her range. This process goes a lot smoother if Fiona doesn't hear my melody to confuse or give her preconceived ideas,though often it's the only way to discover if she does like the key.  :D


I ALWAYS prefer (but don't often get) to use the method you just described.  The thing about letting her find her own melody initially is that it gives the two of you what I call a "unique creative opportunity."   

What that means is that after hearing YOUR version, she would be extremely unlikely to find her own independently of it. Yours would always be in the back of her head restricting her options.  By letting her find her own way, you get TWO CHANCES at excellence instead of just one. 

AFTER she has "found her own melody" you still have your original.  You can pick the best one, combine parts of each, or whatever.  You then have options.  If you restrict her to yours, -- well, then you have far fewer options if any. 

Most people (for whatever reason) aren't brave enough to work that way.  Some have too much ego to work that way.  If's always my preferred method, even though few people will work with me that way.   
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