[Oldbutyet]

Thinking about this maybe the Introduction heading could be change to something like.

Introductions (Please include your reason for joining the forum, thank you and welcome)

This might actually help the new member and those who post their welcome to start up a friendly conversation, getting to know each others, and of course after their third post of work if they still haven't review others a friendly reminder giving.

[hardtwistmusic]

I've evolved my response.  Originally, when I joined, I read the rules, and complied. 

When others didn't do so, I didn't care that much, but when someone just posted without any participation, I simply didn't answer. . . and if the material was so good that I felt compelled to review it, I reviewed and added the advice that participation IS the benefit here. 

For me, it isn't the "first post without reviewing" that is disrespectful, it's the "drive by first posts."  Someone posts, several people respond with reviews, and the person posting simply disappears and is never heard from again.  Doesn't acknowledge the reviews, and doesn't review anyone else.  Occasionally, one of those "drive by and disappear" posters will post a second one. 

THAT isn't about breaking rules, it's about being rude little twits.  My current response is to simply mentally put them into the "ignore" category. 

I've actually seen people request collabs, and then ignore all responses. That's not just rude, it's asinine. 

I used to respond to these.  Now, I simply wait to see if the responses to others get answered before I'll even think about reviewing, or otherwise responding to them. 

I don't think there is a thing (rule-wise) you can do about it.  These aren't participants, and they aren't members.  There is literally nothing you can do about them.  But they DO create a toxic atmosphere for better intentioned members - both newcomers, and veterans. 

Much of the irritation toward first time posters comes from the frustration of reviewing a (previous) first time poster who simply disappears without a trace.  I don't blame members for being leary after that happens. 

All that said, the reason I'm  here is that this is (by far) the best songwriter forum on the internet.  There have been more excellent members depart from this forum (usually having a life beyond songwriting) than I've seen on any other forum.

And the folks who remain and contribute here now are incredible people, with exceptional intentions, and excellent advice. 

All things considered, I suspect that not one person here (on any side of this "argument") has a bad intention.  Nor are any of the participants here "wrong."  I put it all down to "normal wear and tear" and "normal friction." 

My advice is "It ain't broke, so don't fix it." 

[adamfarr]

Great discussion (I had zero songs recorded when I joined so was never 'in danger' but definitely felt the benefit when I did).

I think this is fairly self regulating as 'takers' usually get more or less ignored and givers don't.

So two things:

1. I don't think I'd want to hang around a place that didn't work on the basis of benefit of the doubt
2. The posting and review principles should be presented more clearly so no one can say they didn't know - I'd say on the registration page.

[Boydie]

I think HARDWISTMUSIC has summed it up nicely and I think my proposal for the "unwritten rules" would work as we don't know who the fly by nighters are until they post their second song without reviewing others

This is the point where they can be given a gentle reminder by any member and I think a friendly PM from a mod wouldn't hurt at this stage so please feel free to report a second song put up for review if they do not review others

The objective must be to convert the fly by nighters in to contributing members for the benefit of the whole community

I would also like to say that I am still in touch with many of the established members that have "moved on" and just because they are not posting songs or commenting they are still around and will hopefully be active again soon

[hardtwistmusic]

One additional thought.  There have been times when someone wasn't reviewing, and it was clearly a confidence thing.  The WERE acknowledging reviews, and thanking people for them.  That is still (in my mind) "participating fully." 

When/if I felt they were not getting as much benefit as I felt they could be gaining, I would send them a private message suggesting that they would benefit from reviewing in numerous ways. 

I never had a bad response from that.  And, because it was a private message, it felt less like a "public spanking" than a good faith suggestion. 

It's a subtle difference, but the privacy can mean a lot to a person with a bit of a confidence problem. 

[CaliaMoko]

I have also sent private messages like that. I like to tell them I've noticed they aren't getting many reviews and I have some ideas that might help. I try to think of more than one idea, so I can make it plural.

[Darren1664]

Hello

As a complete new member here I thought I'd (BEST ) chip in!

It can be intimidating to post a song or a review as, like you say, there are certain confidence issues. For me it's not always necessarily confidence in my knowledge but sometime confidence around new people (even though I know this is virtual space).

I find it is nice to get a feel of the land before diving in to post my song even though I am ITCHING to do so I see it as courtesy thing but I can understand that people will post their own material before reviewing others. I think it's kind of natural. I for one get wrapped up in my own ideas that I forget to explore other peoples. Funnily enough, it was in listening/reading peoples material and experiencing different styes that egged me to join. Whether I am just popping up for air or the fog of my own material has truly passed I don't know but it really is refreshing to review (but not necessarily comment on) other peoples work.

I have also noticed that there are some excellent review and comments to some material already and from a newbie perspective I don't feel like I can add and (again a confidence thing) whether I ought to. I mean who am I to come in here tell ya all how ta write songs!

Ok, I've gone on more than I intended.

All the best Darren

[Boydie]

I am so pleased you contributed to this thread - it is great to have the perspective of someone so new to the forum (and I am pleased you have found us!)

I couldn't agree more with your point about listening to other people's songs

My only real exposure to folk music ( genre I wasn't a fan of to say the least) was from listening to songs posted by members on this forum

As I wrote more reviews I started to appreciate the genre - and would even go as far to say that I am a big fan of many of the members here, especially those that have released albums I have purchased/downloaded

It is great that you are getting stuck in to the community

[Darren1664]

Thanks Boydie - nice to be here

[delb0y]

I've found the forum tends to naturally weed out those that don't review others, as in time those folks won't get reviews themselves and so tend to wander off. With that in mind I don't feel the need to mention rules (though I'm sure I have done once or twice).

Other thoughts: the volume of material posted across new songs / WiP / lyrics is substantial and is very difficult to keep up with. If one is a grizzled old member then one probably has the confidence to ignore much of it safe in the knowledge that people understand your position. But I recall when I first joined the sheer size of the tidal wave was scary.

Secondly, even now I have no idea on what to say in a review. Sometimes I post a simple message just as a way of letting the writer know I've listened. Other times I listen but don't post. To me either way has just about the same value to the writer. But it's very hard for an unsuccessful and unskilled and untutored song-writer to offer a decent critique. Talking about myself, there's no advice I can offer to 95% of the songs offered here beyond that I liked it, or maybe a lyric didn't scan or whatever. Again, how does a newbie deal with that scenario?

Thirdly, the song-writing v arrangement v production argument. I'm happy to stop at point (1) of these three points. There are some brilliant people here who are not only great song-writers, but have a way with an arrangement too - be it adding a guitar riff, or some strings, or a harmony or whatever. Then there are the elite who are able to do that and do an amazing production using studio and software skills. Same as above, it takes a while to be confident to just lay a song on the line without worrying about the clever stuff that comes after. Sometimes I think there is an expectation here that points (2) and (3) need - and are expected - to be done, too.  This bothered me as a newbie as I felt wasn't "completing" songs. Now it doesn't but it took a long time.

Derek

[Boydie]

Sometimes I post a simple message just as a way of letting the writer know I've listened. Other times I listen but don't post. To me either way has just about the same value to the writer

I don't necessarily agree with that - if you listen to a song and simply liked it without anything else to say then I do think a brief "I really liked this song and the vocal/chorus/melody/lyrics etc. we're great" adds much more value than not saying anything

I do agree it is much harder when you listen to a song and DON'T like it - in this scenario a simple "I didn't like it" is probably less value then saying nothing at all. This is where some deep thought is required

I don't review as much as I like, but when I do I try to review every song in a batch (working from the bottom of the front page up) so I force myself to post a review of songs - even the ones I don't necessarily like/connect with

The arrangement & production argument will always be an interesting one - and the more I learn about mixing and production the more I feel how important it is to tailor the production to support the song, rather than adding production for production's sake

If someone is writing a commercial pop song then it may be that an element of "production" is required to "sell the song" to the listener - not literally "sell" but get the message of the song across and put a stamp on it as a "pop" song. This requires an element of production that I would argue blurs the line between writing and producing

People rarely argue that rock songs don't need big drums and dirty guitars so I don't see a problem with people choosing to "produce" more modern tracks

It doesn't make "the song" any better but the production and arrangement certainly helps create a piece of art - whether that be a simple folk or country song with an acoustic guitar, a heavy metal song with dirty guitars or a full blown chart production with a zillion tracks and whooshy sound fx