[Boydie]

Hi All

I wanted to get some feedback and a discussion going about how we treat new members to the forum

I would be interested to hear from long standing AND newer members

Cast your mind back to when you first joined....

Certainly for me it was quite intimidating and the main reason for joining the forum is usually to get feedback on your own song

As a complete newbie it is difficult to know where to start so I understand that most take a deep breath and post a song - and then probably sit there hitting refresh to see if they get any reviews/comments

There have been a few comments warning members posting their first song that they should review others - some within minutes and hours

I personally think this is a little harsh - are we really expecting a total newbie to review lots of songs before they post one of their own?

Is there anything wrong with someone posting ONE song without reviewing others to see if they get any bites? - they then may go and review those that give a review to them

It is a little bit chicken & egg but I would like to establish clearer guidelines for new members

My feeling at the moment is posting 1 song without reviewing others should not trigger "read the guidelines" posts to give them a chance to review other people

If they post a second song then I think a friendly reminder about the guidelines should be given

If they do it a third time their post gets locked until they give some reviews

How does this sound? - too lenient? too harsh?

As a new member that may be feeling nervous I think it is too high an expectation for them to be expected to do some reviews before posting their own song

[tone]

I totally agree with you Boydie. Some people are too excited about sharing their music to read the guidelines - or maybe make a mental note to do so, which gets buried under a pile of lyric ideas.

When I created this forum, I wanted it to be a friendly and encouraging place. There will always be people who come along and try to enjoy the benefits without making a contribution, but I stand by my theory that the community naturally weeds those people out. The problem is, you can't tell from a first post what kind of member somebody is, which is why everyone should give new members the benefit of the doubt.

That means being welcoming, encouraging, and letting infractions pass without comment. A gentle and friendly reminder on the second post is perfectly acceptable, and if there's a third, use the report button.

Please don't use the report button to tell mods that a first time poster hasn't posted any reviews.

Also, standard welcoming procedure is (or should be) using the word 'welcome' and encouraging the new member to post in the introductions board. This is a great ice-breaker, and instantly makes people feel like part of the community outside of the context of artistic criticism.

One last thing: please remember that while it's perfectly ok to dislike a song, please be constructive in your feedback. Nobody benefits from 'this is awful' kinds of comments - and they could very well put other new members off.

[Jamie]

The issue for me is this, on a first post you have little idea if the person is a newbie to the whole process,of writing, recording or just posting a song for the first time. I vividly recall my first post as a newbie with no experience in writing, recording or posting my songs I felt some trepidation when I eventually exposed myself to the rigours of peer review. I felt totally unqualified to comment on others songs and techniques as I knew very little. So I posted and got some comments which were helpful and eventually got some confidence to comment on others, and I remember getting a gentle prod from a member who pointed out that I would get more comments if I performed reviews on others. This turned out to be helpful advice!
So, be aware that not everyone has the knowledge confidence or expertise to jump in head first and may want to 'dip their toes in' and get a feel for 'how it works'.

However, we do get posts from people who have obviously got high expertise and knowledge and I'm always suspicious of those guys coz they're just collecting 'fans'.

So, I would say it's best to give some leeway, as the rogues always get weeded out sooner or later.........

My thoughts only!

Cheers
Jamie

[The S]

I don't disagree with anyone of you, just pointing out a fact that may or may not be a bit tricky to get around. There's a ton of music to review here, people are very fast when it comes to writing music, AND to find time to review them all (hypothetically speaking) is very time consuming.

A fact with new members is that no one knows if they'll stick around or not. People encouraging them to start reviewing first is not because they broke a rule or something I'm sure, it is not out of hostility or to be harsh, it's just to get to know them and more importantly I guess, to see if they're even interested in staying around and prove themselves worthy of other members valuable time. That's the reason I guess. Like I said, tricky.

My 0.2

Peter

[shadowfax]

It is tricky, I will stop advising people to read the guidelines or reporting a post because Paul clearly thinks this is too harsh,
I don't mean to be harsh, i just think peeps should earn their keep...
your actually saying..lets let a fly by poster post 3 songs before we start telling him/her they should reciprocate and follow the guidelines that we're all supposed to follow...that's probably more than they need, one off fly by's could fill the first page with songs knowing that nothings gonna happen..
this is a fab forum..if we let it be abused..it will be!!
I posted my first song without reading the guidelines, so I understand it can happen with no evil intention, but..I was told immediately how it is and I fell into line ASAP..didn't do me any harm....
it wont do anyone else any harm either
just make them join in or disappear quickly, which is what we want innit?

[Mike67]

I've only been a member for a few weeks, and must admit that I didn't read the guidance before posting my first song, or reviewed other posts and I didn't post the lyrics either.  A gentle nod in the direction of the guidelines was fine, and I had some helpful feedback from members. If the feedback hadn't been constructive, then I might not have bother posting anything else. If the post had been ignored completely, then I certainly wouldn't have bothered with the forum.

My view is that members should take a punt with first time posters, review their work, and simply encourage them to review other postings.

Mike

[Skub]

It is tricky, I will stop advising people to read the guidelines or reporting a post because Paul clearly thinks this is too harsh,
I don't mean to be harsh, i just think peeps should earn their keep...
your actually saying..lets let a fly by poster post 3 songs before we start telling him/her they should reciprocate and follow the guidelines that we're all supposed to follow...that's probably more than they need, one off fly by's could fill the first page with songs knowing that nothings gonna happen..
this is a fab forum..if we let it be abused..it will be!!
I posted my first song without reading the guidelines, so I understand it can happen with no evil intention, but..I was told immediately how it is and I fell into line ASAP..didn't do me any harm....
it wont do anyone else any harm either
just make them join in or disappear quickly, which is what we want innit?

Kevin said exactly what i would have said.

I won't be advising any new posters from now on either and I'm quite content to leave this job to the mods.

[pompeyjazz]

I agree as well. I was absolutely shitting myself before and after my first post, it did take a while to get into the forum etiquette. There are so many very talented people out there and I think this forum is a fantastic place for education, inspiration and valid critique

[tina m]

I am afraid its the old thing of making somewhere your home & then getting cross when strangers just walk in with muddy boots & disrespect what you hold dear.
I have been guilty of this lots of times here & every time i have left here its been becos of these feelings & the fact that the mods never seemed to do anything about it

This time back I knew I would have to change or it would be pointless
 I realised I would have to not be so protective of this forum & be prepared to share it  & I would have to involve the mods or it would be all pointless
It has worked, I have been able to be more tolerant... & I have to say the mods have been excellent every time ive pointed them at something that I felt wasnt right  

this was not the first forum i was on ..i have been on others & some have had very heavy handed mods who have laid down the law as soon as I registered ....i didnt feel welcome there & soon left

[Viscount Cramer & His Orchestra]

Agree with Boydie....first post, let it go. Second post...gentle reminder.
 
I, like several others it seems, posted first because I didn't think I was qualified to review stuff by people who were a) More accomplished than I was and b) already long-standing members who might not care for a stranger's harsh criticism!

[shadowfax]

Agree with Boydie....first post, let it go. Second post...gentle reminder.
 
I, like several others it seems, posted first because I didn't think I was qualified to review stuff by people who were a) More accomplished than I was and b) already long-standing members who might not care for a stranger's harsh criticism!

I've never seen any harsh criticism on this form my friend :)and are we all really strangers?
 if a writer is afraid of criticism they surely should not join a forum a put their work up for criticism,
we are all pretty fair and helpful here, unless you think telling someone
your rhythm guitar is off the beat is harsh

[shadowfax]

I am afraid its the old thing of making somewhere your home & then getting cross when strangers just walk in with muddy boots & disrespect what you hold dear.
I have been guilty of this lots of times here & every time i have left here its been becos of these feelings & the fact that the mods never seemed to do anything about it

This time back I knew I would have to change or it would be pointless
 I realised I would have to not be so protective of this forum & be prepared to share it  & I would have to involve the mods or it would be all pointless
It has worked, I have been able to be more tolerant... & I have to say the mods have been excellent every time ive pointed them at something that I felt wasnt right  

this was not the first forum i was on ..i have been on others & some have had very heavy handed mods who have laid down the law as soon as I registered ....i didnt feel welcome there & soon left

Leaving a forum because they told you about the rules..

[shadowfax]

I just wanna say that although i disagree with Paul's too Liberal approach he has my support and respect as the gaffer of this forum..he's gotta do what he thinks is best...

 

[diademgrove]

I think this forum can be very intimidating, especially if you are only just starting to write lyrics and melodies. By intimidating I don't mean threatening because the forum is very friendly and encouraging. By intimidating I mean the level of knowledge on offer across all the sections, covering all aspects of writing, recording and playing.

Many new members don't review because they don't know what to write. They don't have the knowledge or confidence to provide a detailed critique of a song or lyrics so they let the opportunity pass. Sometimes a simple "I like that" would be enough but that may seem a bit wet.

We should remember that reviewing songs is a skill which takes time to acquire.

I've been guilty of reminding new members to read the rules and post. Lately I've tried to restrain myself and review the song/lyrics first and then say I look forward to reading their thoughts on other people's work.

I think a ban after the third song/lyric is too harsh. It is fairly obvious who just wants to take without giving and the number of reviews they get reflects that.

Just my tuppence.

Keith

[Yodasdad]

I was convinced that I had reviewed other people's work before I posted my first song, so I've gone back and checked.

It appears I didn't. I did and introduction, posted a song but within a few minutes of this I did start reviewing other people's songs.

I personally don't think there's anything wrong with a gentle reminder on the first song but I think the key word is gentle. The tone in which it's said can make a real difference to how it comes across and if the reminder comes with a review as well, even better.

I quite like the fact that this forum tends to police itself, it adds to the family feeling. I also think it's nice when a reminder comes from someone who isn't a mod. It feels unofficial and like you've got away with it so better pull your socks up before you get caught. It also shows there's not a them and us mentality to the forum, just an us, we all play by and support the rules.

My view is also altered very much by how the poster comes across. Some people are clearly just excited to get there song up but others to me come across wrong from the off. For example, posting a song as there very first post immediately after joining, no prior introduction, no lyrics posted, no explanation, no p's and q's. To me they're not just eager, they come across as having no manners or being here for the wrong reason. Probably haven't read the rules or worse, have a disregard for them.

Having said all this, I absolutely understand Boydie's more tolerant approach and the reasons behind it.

I'm happy to go along with whatever's decided.

I would just add that, if a reminder of the rules is decided to be given for a first offence, I think it should just be from one person, not others joining in to compound the reprimand. I've seen this recently and I think I've been guilty of adding my opinion after the fact although I think the ones recently were for repeat offenders, which I think is different. Then I think seeing that more than one person feels the same is a good thing.

Also, the rules don't actually say that anyone MUST review other works before posting a song. I don't think they should say this either but if this is what people 'do' want, maybe the wording should be changed.

Maybe the sticky with the rules should be in red or a different colour to make it more obvious. They could even come up as a pop up or something that people have to read before posting their first song. Just a thought

Yodasdad