[tone]

I hate to break it to you bro, but Art Garfunkel can't write a christmas card... Paul Simon wrote all the songs for S&G. Garfunkel is credited on a few for arrangement contributions I think but that's about it.

[S.T.C]

Ed Sheeran is not a genius songwriter ,i think he would be embarrassed by such an accolade , but what he is good at ,or should i say wise enough to spot ,is the appeal of songs that explore everyday experiences ,and he expresses them in a way, that  young people around the world can relate to.

Also he's not a shallow pretty boy, in fact i think he's slowly going blind? looks like a lumberjack deprived of a good shower for several weeks , as a style that's non threatening...and on top of all that comes across as very personable ,humble and a good laugh...SO, he's uber marketable,and thus we see him and his label reaping what must be enormous rewards.

[nooms]

oh well..
i must say i preferred mr ed, the talking horse.

cracking moon out there tonight people..
get out your banjos ..

[Oldbutyet]

STC, are you still mouthing off or do you have lyrics to post, iffing sh1t man they lost some some good here 

[Sing4me88]

Ed Sheeran is not a genius songwriter ,i think he would be embarrassed by such an accolade , but what he is good at ,or should i say wise enough to spot ,is the appeal of songs that explore everyday experiences ,and he expresses them in a way, that  young people around the world can relate to.

Also he's not a shallow pretty boy, in fact i think he's slowly going blind? looks like a lumberjack deprived of a good shower for several weeks , as a style that's non threatening...and on top of all that comes across as very personable ,humble and a good laugh...SO, he's uber marketable,and thus we see him and his label reaping what must be enormous rewards.

Does any of this mean the guy hasn't got an unbelievable amount of talent? He quite simply could not have achieved the success he has as a writer and an artist if he wasn't talented. Marketability is one thing but there has to be a substance as a writer and an artist there to market in the first place and IMHO Ed is pretty good material in that respect.

At times it feels like you're inferring that getting 16 out of 20 spots in the charts is not an impressive feat and that it's quite easy to pull off. In reality it's not of course. If I were Ed reading your posts I'd pose the simple question 'if it's so easy why haven't you managed 1 top 20 hit never mind having 16 simultaneously?'.

[Sing4me88]

I hate to break it to you bro, but Art Garfunkel can't write a christmas card... Paul Simon wrote all the songs for S&G. Garfunkel is credited on a few for arrangement contributions I think but that's about it.

Ah touche-stilldoen't detract from the other two examples though.... 

[tone]

Ah touche-stilldoen't detract from the other two examples though....  

While it pains me further to get all pedantic on your ass, I don't think Elton and Bernie is a fair comparison in this instance either. Since they each take the lyrics and music separately and individually, they're kind of like one songwriter in effect. They don't sit together and discuss which hook to repeat, or which line is going to appeal most to girls aged 12-17. The process is quite different as I see it.

What I'm trying to say in this thread (not very eloquently so far) is that these super-successful pop songs seem to tend to be written in quite a contrived way. The song's main purpose is to earn money, not to express what the performer is feeling. I'm not saying these songs don't express anything or that Ed Sheeran performs without feeling. Just saying there's a formulaic approach at work here that delivers hits, especially once an act is already successful, and it's quite cynical and transparent. Have you noticed it's not really my cup of tea either

[Boydie]

What I'm trying to say in this thread (not very eloquently so far) is that these super-successful pop songs seem to tend to be written in quite a contrived way. The song's main purpose is to earn money, not to express what the performer is feeling. I'm not saying these songs don't express anything or that Ed Sheeran performs without feeling. Just saying there's a formulaic approach at work here that delivers hits, especially once an act is already successful, and it's quite cynical and transparent. Have you noticed it's not really my cup of tea either Wink

But, what if the way to earn money is to devise a formula that expresses what the writer is feeling in a way that connects with the audience?

I am firmly in "pop fan" camp as I am fascinated by all of the tools/devices used to create the hooks, message, emotion etc. that will "connect" with listeners enough for them to spend money or take time listening to the songs

[S.T.C]

@oldbutyet -why don't you show some lyrics? as to mouthing off  ,bit rich coming from you , i've rejected your puerile attempts to rope me into a verbal scrap, the same way you've had a dig at Boydie...my problem is the lyrics i write these days are not for public display, unless i choose to write something esp for the forum in a style i don't intend to pitch to anyone, for exp , some for Neil.C.

@Sing4me88 ,  i'm resisting your snide digs , doesn't bother me what you say , you're  uninformed to say the least . I suggest you do more research on how the music game works and modify your point of view, if you can that is.  Everything takes several years ,for  anything to happen.......and then nothing might.......coming out with these 'you're only jealous ,cos you're not rich and famous' comments, shows me you have 'playground' mentality, apart from breathtaking ignorance.

As far as my PRO music career is going, and yes i can say that, i do have a proper CD , which i continue to market.....and it's a tough thing to be doing. i spend time on social media ,building contacts/relationships up .....inc the odd interchange with celebrity artists...like LeAnn rimes  ,,you never know what will come of this along the line...
Also i'm waiting for a music only file to across from Nashville ,so one of the ex-x-Factor contestants can cover it..then if it's good enough ..see about some promotion...

Funnily enough, i even have an Ed Sheeran inspired song, that i'm working on..sang it on guitar even ( chords so far @G-CAAD9-D-DSUS4-EM7) , which i'm approaching a few peeps about..might use some session musicians off Fiverr to work on it to demo standard....er what else....actually that's enough for the moment.

[tone]

But, what if the way to earn money is to devise a formula that expresses what the writer is feeling in a way that connects with the audience?

I am firmly in "pop fan" camp as I am fascinated by all of the tools/devices used to create the hooks, message, emotion etc. that will "connect" with listeners enough for them to spend money or take time listening to the songs

That is the way to earn money, absolutely. I'm not saying that those songs don't communicate with the listeners - they clearly do, otherwise nobody would listen to them. But, the formulaic approach tends to produce a slightly homogenised narrative in my opinion. Often I'm not convinced by the finished song that what's being expressed is the genuine emotional impulse of the writer. What I so often (not always) hear is a 'universal' message that is designed to appeal to as many people as possible. Usually they're under 20, and I think the reason for this might be that younger people have fewer unique and nuanced experiences which may conflict with the messages in pop music. Also, they're invariably in the throes of emotional tides, making them very susceptible to love/ heartbreak/ partying songs.

Hell, maybe I'm just old. :p

[Oldbutyet]

@oldbutyet -why don't you show some lyrics? as to mouthing off  ,bit rich coming from you , i've rejected your puerile attempts to rope me into a verbal scrap, the same way you've had a dig at Boydie...my problem is the lyrics i write these days are not for public display, unless i choose to write something esp for the forum in a style i don't intend to pitch to anyone, for exp , some for Neil.C.

I think i lit a fuse again with you, second time imaging that, oh and by the way i wasn't having a dig at Boydie i was having a conversation with him using what we all use here even you its call the written word, sorry if it came across the wrong way, again for both of you and one other thing, i have huge respect for lyric writers been one myself so stop trying to prove something to yourself.

You're writing with Neil C, sounds good already, okay ill ignore your boyist tantrums so you may continue now.

[S.T.C]

But, what if the way to earn money is to devise a formula that expresses what the writer is feeling in a way that connects with the audience?

I am firmly in "pop fan" camp as I am fascinated by all of the tools/devices used to create the hooks, message, emotion etc. that will "connect" with listeners enough for them to spend money or take time listening to the songs

That is the way to earn money, absolutely. I'm not saying that those songs don't communicate with the listeners - they clearly do, otherwise nobody would listen to them. But, the formulaic approach tends to produce a slightly homogenised narrative in my opinion. Often I'm not convinced by the finished song that what's being expressed is the genuine emotional impulse of the writer. What I so often (not always) hear is a 'universal' message that is designed to appeal to as many people as possible. Usually they're under 20, and I think the reason for this might be that younger people have fewer unique and nuanced experiences which may conflict with the messages in pop music. Also, they're invariably in the throes of emotional tides, making them very susceptible to love/ heartbreak/ partying songs.

Hell, maybe I'm just old. :p

You're correct TONE....it's heavily formulated ,to create maximum returns.....we see it all over the movie industry as well.....very few non CGI/marvel / 2.3,4 or 5 in the series ,spinoffs of successful films etc ...at the old multiplex  

They don't need to look for the 'new' ..same with the mainstream music industry , why create uncertainty for themselves...just use the same old 10/11 top writers, to do what they do so well , creating songs for the same old stars , market them to death, arena tours, Youtube vids, Radio....poor kids don't stand a chance.

[S.T.C]

@oldbutyet -why don't you show some lyrics? as to mouthing off  ,bit rich coming from you , i've rejected your puerile attempts to rope me into a verbal scrap, the same way you've had a dig at Boydie...my problem is the lyrics i write these days are not for public display, unless i choose to write something esp for the forum in a style i don't intend to pitch to anyone, for exp , some for Neil.C.

I think i lit a fuse again with you, second time imaging that, oh and by the way i wasn't having a dig at Boydie i was having a conversation with him using what we all use here even you its call the written word, sorry if it came across the wrong way, again for both of you and one other thing, i have huge respect for lyric writers been one myself so stop trying to prove something to yourself.

You're writing with Neil C, sounds good already, okay ill ignore your boyist tantrums so you may continue now.

I've known a few people like you in my time...unstable , alcoholics for the most part....guess it's time to stop feeding the trolls.

[Oldbutyet]

@oldbutyet -why don't you show some lyrics? as to mouthing off  ,bit rich coming from you , i've rejected your puerile attempts to rope me into a verbal scrap, the same way you've had a dig at Boydie...my problem is the lyrics i write these days are not for public display, unless i choose to write something esp for the forum in a style i don't intend to pitch to anyone, for exp , some for Neil.C.

I think i lit a fuse again with you, second time imaging that, oh and by the way i wasn't having a dig at Boydie i was having a conversation with him using what we all use here even you its call the written word, sorry if it came across the wrong way, again for both of you and one other thing, i have huge respect for lyric writers been one myself so stop trying to prove something to yourself.

You're writing with Neil C, sounds good already, okay ill ignore your boyist tantrums so you may continue now.

I've known a few people like you in my time...unstable , alcoholics for the most part....guess it's time to stop feeding the trolls.

Im LOL 

[Sing4me88]

@Sing4me88 ,  i'm resisting your snide digs , doesn't bother me what you say , you're  uninformed to say the least . I suggest you do more research on how the music game works and modify your point of view, if you can that is.  Everything takes several years ,for  anything to happen.......and then nothing might.......coming out with these 'you're only jealous ,cos you're not rich and famous' comments, shows me you have 'playground' mentality, apart from breathtaking ignorance.

As far as my PRO music career is going, and yes i can say that, i do have a proper CD , which i continue to market.....and it's a tough thing to be doing. i spend time on social media ,building contacts/relationships up .....inc the odd interchange with celebrity artists...like LeAnn rimes  ,,you never know what will come of this along the line...
Also i'm waiting for a music only file to across from Nashville ,so one of the ex-x-Factor contestants can cover it..then if it's good enough ..see about some promotion...

Funnily enough, i even have an Ed Sheeran inspired song, that i'm working on..sang it on guitar even ( chords so far @G-CAAD9-D-DSUS4-EM7) , which i'm approaching a few peeps about..might use some session musicians off Fiverr to work on it to demo standard....er what else....actually that's enough for the moment.

1) I didn't have any 'snide dig' at you and it's unfortunate that you would take it as such.
2) Can anyone who has written a CD and/or performs for pay call themselves a 'PRO' now?
3) I may not be as ill-informed about the 'industry' as you think. Is it that I haven't made any inroads into the 'industry' or towards commercial success with new collabs, co-writes and networking yet or is it that I don't feel the need to log them on here or to try and flaunt them about as some sign of having songwriter gravitas?
4) Have I ever said commercial success isn't hard or that it doesn't take years to accumulate?
5) Even if you had Ed's marketing team behind you and your CD IMHO it still wouldn't be in the same stratosphere in terms of appeal or artistic merit
6) Have you ever thought you might have to modify your own point of view? Saying that you are just as good as, if not better, that ED Sheeran, Taylor Swift and Gary Barlow without having anything of substance to show is ill-advised to say the least. You say you are interested in trying to achieve commercial success. Would it not be more worthwhile studying the craft of those who have already attained it instead of adopting a know-it-all complex and attributing their success to marketing? How can you possibly progress towards your goal on the basis of insisting you are better than established hit writers and dismissing their success rather than trying to glean from what they've done and how they do it?
7) As I said before it is one thing writing a song that has some sort of Ed Sheeran or Taylor Swift vibe to it but quite another to write one that they'd actually sing or that people could actually imagine them singing.