[Oldbutyet]

Quote
The point of the post is , the charts mean nothing, they only help the music business to confirm that the methods and strategy they employ are working..

I couldn't agree with you more!!

You two sound as if you're both singing from the same old sh1t hymn sheet, disagree with above.

@ OLDBUTYET

How can you disagree with this statement after acknowledging and accepting that the music industry is a "business"

The charts are their "sales figures" and the position in the charts directly correlates with success of all elements of the business (marketing, pr, artist image, quality of product etc.) so I am really confused that you think this is the "same old sh1t" and you disagree   

What do you disagree with?


[/quote]

Maybe im reading your post wrong but i think you just answer your own question, the charts was and still is, always a guide for their marketing sales, so charts are very important in all form of businesses 

[Oldbutyet]

Quote
The point of the post is , the charts mean nothing, they only help the music business to confirm that the methods and strategy they employ are working..

I couldn't agree with you more!!

You two sound as if you're both singing from the same old sh1t hymn sheet, disagree with above.

@ OLDBUTYET

How can you disagree with this statement after acknowledging and accepting that the music industry is a "business"

The charts are their "sales figures" and the position in the charts directly correlates with success of all elements of the business (marketing, pr, artist image, quality of product etc.) so I am really confused that you think this is the "same old sh1t" and you disagree   

What do you disagree with?

Maybe im reading your post wrong but i think you just answer your own question, the charts was and still is, always a guide for their marketing sales, so charts are very important in all form of businesses 
[/quote]

In STC post he has  "the charts mean nothing" are you still saying you agree.

[Boydie]

Ah - I now see where the confusion is

What I think STC is saying (and I agree) is that the charts are not necessarily an indication of how "good" a song is - it is just a result of sales, which is based on the "manufactured" elements of the label - i.e. Marketing etc. etc.

However, where I disagree a bit with STC is that I think that some of the artists that do get signed  (especially the ones referenced in this thread) DO merit their success and could be better than what is out there

It is all just sooooooo subjective though as many may think "Dark Side Of The Moon" is overrated (not me by the way) and Divide by Ed Sheeran is the best album ever made in the history of music

Nobody can say what is "wrong or right" - just what they like, which is what makes music and songwriting such a wonderful thing

[S.T.C]

Ah - I now see where the confusion is

What I think STC is saying (and I agree) is that the charts are not necessarily an indication of how "good" a song is - it is just a result of sales, which is based on the "manufactured" elements of the label - i.e. Marketing etc. etc.

However, where I disagree a bit with STC is that I think that some of the artists that do get signed  (especially the ones referenced in this thread) DO merit their success and could be better than what is out there

It is all just sooooooo subjective though as many may think "Dark Side Of The Moon" is overrated (not me by the way) and Divide by Ed Sheeran is the best album ever made in the history of music

Nobody can say what is "wrong or right" - just what they like, which is what makes music and songwriting such a wonderful thing

The charts no longer serve the purpose they were created for in many ways....how can 16 songs from 1 artist  dominate...? this shouldn't happen , but like someone said , they now use data from streaming sites, and from these , artists like ED /S are dominant.

@Boydie , you know i'm not anti-pop music , and i recognise the talent that exists in the mainstream artists, they're not without merit, but in other era's i would suggest, they would be passed on..but thats my opinion.

[Oldbutyet]

Ah - I now see where the confusion is

What I think STC is saying (and I agree) is that the charts are not necessarily an indication of how "good" a song is - it is just a result of sales, which is based on the "manufactured" elements of the label - i.e. Marketing etc. etc.

However, where I disagree a bit with STC is that I think that some of the artists that do get signed  (especially the ones referenced in this thread) DO merit their success and could be better than what is out there

It is all just sooooooo subjective though as many may think "Dark Side Of The Moon" is overrated (not me by the way) and Divide by Ed Sheeran is the best album ever made in the history of music

Nobody can say what is "wrong or right" - just what they like, which is what makes music and songwriting such a wonderful thing

My apologies to you both, and as for you two singing from the same old sh1t hymn sheet, i have to admit you were both sounding pretty good, you two should record something together   

[Sing4me88]

Here's an outside the box thought - might it be that Ed Sheeran IS a damn good songwriter...

The guy is shit hot pop and I agree with what Boydie has said in his earlier posts. He has consistently produced the goods as an artist and a writer. I think it's a case of musical snobbery to suggest he writes for the undiscerning listener. A Team and Thinking Out Loud are hardly simplistic, trashy modern pop. They are quite nuanced and have their own sophistry in ways. The guy is inarguably gifted when it comes to writing commercial pop hooks.

Two examples suffice; 'If you like the way you look that much you should go and love yourself'. What a pop hook! It's text book yet original. Anyone who says they don't wish they'd come up with a hook like this and made the £ from it that Ed has is simply lying.

'I'm in love with the shape of you, we push and pull like a magnet do'. Again pure genius in terms of a modern pop love song. There's a million ways it could have been said and a million ways it wouldn't have worked yet he's managed to come up with the goods again. Ed has the ability to write simple pop lyrics that pack a punch and connect with people without trying too hard or without indulging in arty farty bullshit that tries to make him sound so much more cleverer than the listener. There's a lesson to be learnt from him in terms of writing commercial songs.

I guess I should be upfront and say I'm not a huge Ed fan but I still recognise how good his songwriting is and how on fleek he is in today's market. Whether it floats my own personal boat is neither here nor there as there's plenty of punters out there floating Ed's boat.

Sometimes I think folk on the forum would be better throwing away the sour grapes attitude over successful modern writers and instead try to learn from them. How can anyone with ambitions of making £ in the modern market and industry seriously do so while criticising those that have demonstrably achieved this already and constantly ignoring how they've done so.

[tone]

If we're going to call Ed Sheeran a genius, (he's good, but not a genius IMHO) then I think we have to also notice that he doesn't solo write all his material. Thinking out loud is one of the songs mentioned here - I saw a TV clip about the co-writer of that song and many others.

It seems to me he has a foot in both camps. He's undoubtedly a talented songwriter in his own right, but I think his output is carefully managed and 'nudged' by those with the most to gain from his talent. Personally I think it's a good song, but it could have been recorded/ performed by anyone. Westlife even?! I would prefer to hear a bit more personality in the writing, but that's just my preference. It's not the way hits are made any more.

[delb0y]

I do get the point of the charts for the Marketing men and the Finance men. It must help a lot if one is able to write "chart topper" on a poster or "52 weeks at number one" and for the accountants it must help to inform them next time they're asked to sign off on a promo-budget or a video shoot. It's no doubt great for the artist, too. Because, whatever we think about the current state of the charts, we have a half of century of history during which getting in the charts was the key thing for a pop band. The fact that the playing field is at a very different level now to what it was years ago is almost irrelevant. To have more songs in the top ten than the Beatles ever did ain't going to happen to many artists.

But... to the rest of us, does it matter?

Maybe it does? When I was a kid I loved it when Motorhead were on TOTP - it was two fingers up to all the pop and disco that was prevalent at the time. Punk was a bit the same. Maybe there are kids out there right now who love it when their favourite band gets into the chart.

But I have to say the charts have been irrelevant to me since, well since Motorhead were on TOTP. I pretty much realised that week that what I like and what the Radio One playlist people liked were very different and never the twain shall meet.

We had a thread on here last year about how the new charts methodology (i.e. moving from including just hard copies to downloads and now streaming) is worrying the industry and making it harder and harder for new bands to get a look in. This week's situation shows those concerns being realised. But these concerns were all around new pop bands. For those of us into more roots music we've always looked on at such situations and discussions with a wry smile, some wishful thinking, and a little envy, but have simply gone out and bought the CDs we liked regardless of whether a radio DJ tells us we should or not.

Ed Sheeran. I gather he's very good. The under-thirties in the household say he's fantastic. Best live show ever. New album is brill. Etc etc. I don't know anything by him - although I did click on a link just now to hear what his version of Galway Girl was like. Turned out not to be Steve Earle's song (there was me assuming...) and it was not as good as Steve's Earle's song (IMHO) but it wasn't bad. Nothing I'd swap out my Tom Waits, Buster Jones, or Stefan Grossman CDs in the car for, though.

I do find it odd that the Singles chart can contain songs that aren't singles. So maybe it's time to rebrand the chart as simply "Most Popular Song". We ought to get rid of all the other Radio One charts at the same time, too - the R'N'B and the Dance and the Indie and the Asian... I mean what's the point of these? Or, why not go the other way, the "Acoustic Song Written By Someone Called Derek Rutherford" chart? I might get ten weeks at number one in that chart and I could then tell my marketing man to put it on my posters - might get more than one man and a dog coming to my next gig...

No charts, work for a few, but have little relevance or truth for the rest of us. 

[Ramshackles]

I wasnt aware there was still any 'single' singles chart... 
The 'official charts company' has always been of zero interest to me and I suspect the majority of people on this forum. Top sellers always have generally been middle of the road, least-offensive-to-a-majority coffee-table fodder.

Nowadays there are 1000 websites, blogs, youtubers, soundclouders each publishing their own 'charts' of what is popular/cool (according to them)/upcoming. We are spoilt for choice.
I've not looked at an 'official' chart since I first discovered the hype machine

The difficulty for musicians now is not making music accessible to potential fans, but making sure they discover you among to zillions of stuff out there.

[diademgrove]

I've just contributed to the chart positions for Ed Sheeren Shape of You (reminds me of Eagle Eye Cherry), The Jesus and Mary Chain Snakedriver and Maren Morris 80s Mercedes. I doubt whether it will lead to a huge boost for the career of the Jesus and Mary Chain but it is likely, along with millions of other plays, boost the chart positions of the other two. It didn't cost me a penny and reminds me of radio hits of the 70s and 80s. Songs that got lots of radio plays but nobody bought them.

I may put some Jesus and Mary Chain cds on my Christmas list but Ed Sheeren and Maren Morris will remain occasional youtube plays.

You could argue that youtube and Spotify is different because of the advertising revenue. Maybe, but radio the US has always attracted advertising revenue. The difference is that Spotify allows you to be your own DJ and play what you like.  

Not a great way to identify new talent and the next big thing. In the meantime I'll rely on word of mouth to hear new music and decide what I'll buy and what I'll listen to for free.

[shadowfax]

Here's an outside the box thought - might it be that Ed Sheeran IS a damn good songwriter...

The guy is shit hot pop and I agree with what Boydie has said in his earlier posts. He has consistently produced the goods as an artist and a writer. I think it's a case of musical snobbery to suggest he writes for the undiscerning listener. A Team and Thinking Out Loud are hardly simplistic, trashy modern pop. They are quite nuanced and have their own sophistry in ways. The guy is inarguably gifted when it comes to writing commercial pop hooks.

Two examples suffice; 'If you like the way you look that much you should go and love yourself'. What a pop hook! It's text book yet original. Anyone who says they don't wish they'd come up with a hook like this and made the £ from it that Ed has is simply lying.


Sheeren writes his songs with half a dozen other people!!
'I'm in love with the shape of you, we push and pull like a magnet do'. Again pure genius in terms of a modern pop love song. There's a million ways it could have been said and a million ways it wouldn't have worked yet he's managed to come up with the goods again. Ed has the ability to write simple pop lyrics that pack a punch and connect with people without trying too hard or without indulging in arty farty bullshit that tries to make him sound so much more cleverer than the listener. There's a lesson to be learnt from him in terms of writing commercial songs.

I guess I should be upfront and say I'm not a huge Ed fan but I still recognise how good his songwriting is and how on fleek he is in today's market. Whether it floats my own personal boat is neither here nor there as there's plenty of punters out there floating Ed's boat.

Sometimes I think folk on the forum would be better throwing away the sour grapes attitude over successful modern writers and instead try to learn from them. How can anyone with ambitions of making £ in the modern market and industry seriously do so while criticising those that have demonstrably achieved this already and constantly ignoring how they've done so.

Sheeran writes his songs with half a dozen other writers...

[Sing4me88]

Sheeran writes his songs with half a dozen other writers...

And that makes him not a good writer? Does it also mean he's not consistently able to write chart hits?

[Sing4me88]

Also it's simply not true that he writes all his songs with half a dozen other writers. Most of his bigger songs do have co-writers but it's one or two co-writers at most per song and it's usually a different co-writer in each case - Cold Water being a notable exception as there's about eight credited writers on there. Otherwise Ed and commercial success seem to be the two constants in his other songs....

[tone]

And that makes him not a good writer? Does it also mean he's not consistently able to write chart hits?

It doesn't make him a bad writer. But it does probably mean he's consistently unable to write chart hits without collaborating - otherwise he'd be the sole writer on those tunes.

I just think it's worth noting as it seems to me co-writes are the norm for 'songwriters' these days. Every songwriter with a tune in the charts seems to have one or more co-writers lurking behind the scenes. Whether that's a good or bad thing depends on your point of view. But I do think it warrants some hesitation before applying the label 'genius' to the wee ginger fella...

[Sing4me88]

I just think it's worth noting as it seems to me co-writes are the norm for 'songwriters' these days. Everyone songwriter with a tune in the charts seems to have one or more co-writers lurking behind the scenes. Whether that's a good or bad thing depends on your point of view.

From what I gather some of the bigger hits of recent times like Wrecking Ball (25 credited writers!?!) aren't even written by a songwriting team anymore but by songwriting teams. Labels have these teams of proven chart hit writers busying away in different rooms coming up with various hooks etc. They take the best from each offering, carefully glue it all together and it becomes a monster hit. All the 'leftover' are also cobbled together and become hits too apparently.

I'm a huge fan of collabs (possibly because of my own very limited offerings) so this idea of teams really appeals to me. I don't think writing in a team or teams diminishes anyones ability or credo at all. Is Lennon a lesser of a songwriting genius because he wrote many of his hits with McCartney and vice versa? What about Paul Simon and Art Garfunkel? Or Elton and Bernie? Also, I'm pretty certain you have to cut the mustard to a) become and b) remain part of the golden circle of chart hit writers. Not just anyone can rock up more to the pity....