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Songwriting Advice

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tone

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« Reply #15 on: April 13, 2017, 03:27:27 PM »
Here's a killer tips for any songwriter.  Sorry if everyone knows this but I am guessing that they don't.

1) Use a the major and minor of the same chord, can be the 4th above the root but that doesn't really count.

So, in the key of C,  use an A major and an A minor,  or D major and D minor or E major and E minor. or 2 or all three.

Even better if you can use C major and C minor as well.

Better if the major chord comes after the minor,  does not need to be the next chord but later in the song. 

A very large percentage of some of the most succesful pop songs ever written have this trick in them somewhere.



My favourite example of this is Fire and Rain by James Taylor. The verse begins A, Em, D, A and then goes to A, E, G+7 - beautiful!
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Oldbutyet

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« Reply #16 on: April 13, 2017, 11:03:42 PM »
Hi guys,

I am really stuck and I have been for the last 5 years.

I've been playing the guitar since I was 16 (I am now 23) and I've been using Logic Pro since I was 18.

I am going to be honest, I've never finish a song. In fact I've never really got past 16 bars. I don't know if I over think things and expect to write something amazing but I'm finding it very difficult to even start writing now because I know I will not finish it.

One day I'll be influenced by someone the next day I'm listening to something completely different. People used to say to me 'oh Alex it will come eventually' but if anything my writing skills have dwindled. It's actually made me stressed and why should writing music stress me out? It should be something I love to do, and I do! But I'm so confused how to even start writing a song in Logic especially even though I have good knowledge of musical theory.

I sometimes feel as though maybe I am just incapable of writing anything but I can't let go and I want to write something I will be proud of and think: I really put everything into that bit music instead of scratching the surface and giving up within half an hour.

I suppose the things I struggle with is the space in my songs, I always want to write synthy, industrial psychedelic music, when I listen to artists songs I like, they sound so full with so much going on but all compliment each other and they never sound muddy. I would like advice on how to achieve this. Even if I have to go back to basics would someone be kind enough to give me a little explanation.

Am I better off writing a song on my guitar than to start with my digital audio station (Logic).

Writing music in Logic feels so different from playing with your band or friends. It doesn't seem as easy to feel the music (for me anyway).

Look, I would be elated if someone could reply and give me a little kick up the backside to get me going.

Thanks,

Alexander  :)





First of all replying is a wonderful way of building up confidence in oneself.

Your post reads like you're trying to hard, trying to fit everything in when you should be starting from basics, so advice is forget about writing a song forget about writing lyrics forget about using logic pro or whatever that does, go into that room where you feel the most relax have your guitar and a note book and pen beside you switch everything off even your thoughts and enjoy that moment, then start writing, no song no lyric just start writing, if you cant find something to write about then write about something you remember but remember, no song no lyric just start writing.

Then when that done read it back to yourself as if you're reading yourself a story, because at that moment that's all it is and change whatever needs to be change.

If we can help you anymore just reply   8)

AdrianDorset

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« Reply #17 on: April 14, 2017, 11:47:31 AM »
Other things you could try...

Play around with endings and beginnings.  Again in the key of C find better ways back to C.

eg:  Dm7 G C  is obvious but what about:   Fm G C  or  Ab G C  or Em G C  or Ab Bb C

Also find an interesting 1st chord change,  Mr McCartney seems to be the only person who uses

C  to Gm at the beginning of a song.  ( Hey Bulldog & Queenie Eye plus a few Wings ones I think)

* Intros in a different key.    (Ab intro  -  Song in C) 

* Verse in a minor key,  chorus in major,

* Chord progressions that DONT revert back to the original key. Who says they have to! 

* Chords with added notes in the Verse (6ths, minors 7ths etc,) and straight majors and minors in the chorus. (Wannadies - You & Me song uses that) 

*  Move the bass line but not the chords (Hill Stree Blues theme) / move the chords but not the bass line  (Thank you for being a friend)

* Move the bass up one note

* move the melody up a third instead of repeating it.





The S

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« Reply #18 on: April 14, 2017, 06:45:24 PM »
Even though there's still some solid advice in this thread, I suspect we lost OP (Alexander) the very instant he pressed enter and let his very first post go.

I can only hope he read some of the excellent answers and suggestions he recieved.

 ::)

AdrianDorset

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« Reply #19 on: April 15, 2017, 02:24:49 PM »
Another good trick is harmonic substitution....

used all over the place in Jazz but also used in Pop music too. 

eg 1)   Bruno Mars Lazy song.    g d c    g d c   g d c   g B7 c     The B7 give the tune a lift and makes it more interesting even although the melody would have fitted over another g d c 

eg 2)   Richard Rodgers - Edelweiss.   First Edeilweiss Edelweiss at the start of the song   C G7 C F 
          When exactly the same melody repeats as the end of the song chords are C C7 F Fm

          2 different eras but same tricks!   

Cazrolina

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« Reply #20 on: April 16, 2017, 12:32:25 AM »
Yup. This might be his loss and our gain.  There are a few more juicy "golden nuggets" in this thread.
Very interesting reading and some great advice. Cx
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Ramshackles

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« Reply #21 on: April 25, 2017, 07:39:11 AM »

One day I'll be influenced by someone the next day I'm listening to something completely different.

Am I better off writing a song on my guitar than to start with my digital audio station (Logic).


I can totally understand being influenced by this thing then that thing and losing your way. I think it is important to keep telling yourself that it is OK not to sound like this band and that band that you like. In fact, it is imperative. You will never sound as good as them if you imitate them; you need to feel OK sounding like yourself. Try not listening to anything for a day or more and then writing a song maybe?

Also, I personally think it is very important to write with an instrument (not a computer). I think you've got to start off by writing a complete song, not matter how rubbish you think it sounds. Pick a direction and follow it through to the end. Then write another one and another. Over time, you will find your own sound...

hardtwistmusic

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« Reply #22 on: April 28, 2017, 01:48:39 AM »
You have to finish a song..even if you think it's crap..which all mine were when I started (still are now but that's another story)..
learn from the last piece of rubbish you wrote and write a better piece of rubbish..and so on, in the end you'll have some good songs,
that's how I started...now I'm writing good quality rubbish ;D ;D ;D

keep on keepin on my friend :) :)

What he/she said.  THAT was good advice.  And your friend who told you "it will come" was wrong.  You'll "go get it" or you won't have "it." 

And "going to get it" means finishing everything you want to be a song.  In the first place, NO ONE is a worse judge of how good your work is than you are.  You are nearly always going to be overly harsh on yourself and on your own creations.  JUST FINISH THEM. 

Years later, you can come back and improve them - but only if you finish them.  I've quit writing altogether to go back and fine tune the hundreds of songs I've written.  I've got at least four hundred "finished," and another four hundred in the works.  None were "good enough to finish" when I made the initial write.  Some now (probably) are.  There is no point to starting them until you reach a "resolution point" with them.  That won't mean they are "good enough" or "are finished."  But they are a complete idea that you can then return to. 

Good luck with this.   
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Boydie

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« Reply #23 on: April 28, 2017, 07:46:04 AM »
I keep saying it...

Songs are written
Good songs are "re-written"
Great songs are re-writes of good songs


The mantra is get a song "done" - this should be seen as the "easy" bit

The hard bit (which many don't think to move on to) is then re-writing and finessing the song to make it good - and then great

To me the "writing" is the inspiration and should express what comes out

The re-writing is where you can decide whether you want to "follow the rules" or break them - but the use of "song craft", and an appreciation of many of the established tools & techniques (song craft), can transform a heart felt song that nobody is interested in - into an engaging song that people "like" and appreciate
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Wicked Deeds

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« Reply #24 on: April 28, 2017, 10:20:24 AM »
I keep saying it...

Songs are written
Good songs are "re-written"
Great songs are re-writes of good songs


The mantra is get a song "done" - this should be seen as the "easy" bit

The hard bit (which many don't think to move on to) is then re-writing and finessing the song to make it good - and then great

To me the "writing" is the inspiration and should express what comes out

The re-writing is where you can decide whether you want to "follow the rules" or break them - but the use of "song craft", and an appreciation of many of the established tools & techniques (song craft), can transform a heart felt song that nobody is interested in - into an engaging song that people "like" and appreciate


I couldn't agree more Boydie.  The songwriting part - writing the initial song, maybe on guitar or piano, (though you could easily complete that part using your DAW as many do) is most definitely the easiest part.  

When I write, I know how to  tick all of the boxes that make me happy with my composition. Like many writers, I give myself  free reign to create.  That's fine if you are a hobby writer but writers with serious aspiratations of securing that's elusive hit record, mostly have to play by a differently set of rules.

Maybe the best approach is to study existing successful songs and to use their structure as a template. I'd go as far as to say perhaps use similar instrumentation and sounds too so that's your composition is current.   Using this method may prove difficult if you are not  used to disciplining yourself during the writing process but if you want to maximise your chances of success it may well be required.  There is however, always the exception where a song doesn't adhere to the aforementioned approach.  

The mantra really is very good.  when you've finished writing and producing, put your song under the microscope. It's quite possible that your song stands up to your own expectations but it's not written to commercial standards.  

It's great to receive feedback from the forum but you've got to be prepared to do some serious study and work if you are writing to achieve commercial success.  Whatever your approach, enjoy the experience as success may be elusive throughout your writing career.

Paul

« Last Edit: April 28, 2017, 11:00:41 AM by Wicked Deeds »

Martinswede

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« Reply #25 on: April 28, 2017, 05:12:00 PM »
But all this still requires hard work.
I believe I develop as a song writer and a performer about at the same
speed. Old songs, though simple and with out a catchy chorus, will sound
better every half year I revisit them (their not recorded just words and chords).
Some might even open my eyes/ears and make me look at them in a new light.

I'm stuck in the view that writing a song means lyrics and noted chord changes.
I'm of course wrong. There are so many components of a song these days like
drum tracks and samples. But I think I got the basics.

What is an improvement of a song? This in some way saddens me. Is there really a goal in it
except making a living(yes a living not money) to make a song appeal to people who
only remembers the chorus? I think not. I think there's more to a song.
Many of the songs I've heard here have no part of me screaming Top 20!
But they are good songs. Good lyrics. Good performances.
I guess exceptional is the word. Just 'Good' doesn't make it these days.
To make an exceptional song you have to sacrifice a lot. Most of all you have to think
in another way. Instead  of 'Does this feel right?' you have to think 'Does this work?'.

To me the whole idea is very uninspiring. Why should I do it when someone else can do
it better?

I hope my moody opinion doesn't put you all of songwriting.  :)

Martin


Wicked Deeds

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« Reply #26 on: April 28, 2017, 05:39:48 PM »
Like you Martin, a finished song has always been the same to me: vocal melody and harmony (chords); something that I can perform live on acoustic guitar.  That's how I've always written songs.  The sometimes elaborate/detailed productions that I present and play or programme all instruments for (barring the occasional royalty free loop) in my opinion, have nothing to do with songwriting.  I'm old school in that respect.  I developed  my ability to write songs long before I had the luxury of a powerful digital audio workstation. 

By and large, I give myself free reign to write whatever I like, though on occasion, I will deliberately write something that adhere's to a more commercial structure simply for the enjoyment derived from the challenge. 

Songwriting is a brilliant hobby and we can all follow the direction that suits us best, whether that be commercial writing or otherwise. 

Paul

AdrianDorset

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« Reply #27 on: April 30, 2017, 07:13:06 PM »
Not sure if anyone else has mentioned this but another thing you could try is:

Just try and write any piece of music in any style.  jazz, blues,  classical, folk, pop, literally anything. Waltz, 4 time, anything at all. 

You might find you can write something nice that would never be a "pop" hit but is a nice piece nevertheless. 

This might in turn give you some inspiration to write something more commercial! 


Johnnyuk

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« Reply #28 on: February 20, 2018, 05:13:47 PM »
Hi,
I would go right back to basics.
Not sure what your main instrument of choice is but mine is piano. So i would take the pressure off yourself by writing a song using only voice and piano. Force yourself to keep it short time wise around 3 minutes is more than enough.
Johnny :)

cowparsleyman

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« Reply #29 on: February 21, 2018, 08:05:15 PM »
I love writing music, whether it's songs or pieces, It's a mirror of how I feel, if I play live I take that mirror with me, and people can see into my soul.

Don't get too hung up about it, just play and enjoy it, sure the technique helps, but one of the most inspiring bands I ever saw was a bunch of year 7 kids who only played together a few weeks, they played an ACDC song, pretty well, but they loved playing and couldn't care if anyone else liked it, they started playing without the drummer, because he was late, now that's rock n roll.

If you like it that's all that matters, the charts will look after themselves.

cpm