[GuyBarry]

i'm not a maths tutor...but i do know that 2+2=4

Shouldn't that be "But I do know 1+1=2"? 

[tone]

I'm glad you replied here Guy, thanks for that.

I can't understand how you don't notice (I'm tempted to think you do notice but allow yourself to ignore it) how your replies come across as aggressive, egotistical and self-righteous. Even this one I'm replying to right now, starts off with great diplomacy. You took my points and answered them in detail, with honesty (it seems) and publicly (as I requested).

Yet at the end, you couldn't help but have another dig. Another reminder how the other resources you tap are superior to this one. A little stab at the other members by the implication that their musical impulses are sterile because they involve a computer.

Seriously?

A computer is a tool, like a french horn or a tambourine. It doesn't sterilise the music. It captures it. By that definition, every recording artist is sterile because they used a machine while they were making music. An analogue recording studio may not be a 'computer' in the accepted sense, but it does the same thing, minus a few tricks. A computer does not create the music for you. It doesn't write the song.

If you can be polite, respectful and gracious in your contributions here, I still maintain that you're very welcome, Guy. It's just that you haven't been - and it's not just me who thinks so.

[Sing4me88]

And I'd like to see that as well.  And that's what I try to do when people ask questions which I feel I can answer.  If I can't, I don't feel obliged to post anything vaguely relevant to the question.  That's not helping the original poster - that's confusing them.

I take pride in the information I post to internet forums.  I don't just write off the top of my head.  I try to put myself in the position of the person asking the question, and tailor my response to what I think they want.  I may get it wrong sometimes of course but they can always come back if necessary.


I get the impression that for many people here this forum is their only contact with other songwriters.  I got back into writing because I met another songwriter, so I've always had that contact.  I've met other budding writers via the Rec House and now I've discovered Bath Songwriters' Group, who are absolutely fantastic.  

I think it's a shame that other people here haven't been able to find a resource like that.  For me music is primarily a living thing that I do with other people.   It's not a sterile thing that I produce in front of a computer.

There's being informative, helpful and taking pride in the information you post and then there's flagellating yourself on the floor with the theory you profess to so abundantly possess... I have a fair indication which applies to you and in case you're in any doubt it is not the first one...

The second comment exposes that elitist  sense of musical privilege that has now become the inarguable characteristic of your posts on the forum. To be honest I've gone past trying to extract any reason or rhyme from your posts as you are trying too hard to seem clever and flex your theoretical muscle and now you are having a cheap shot at bedroom producers and those that write as a hobby and use modern technology.

In between digesting the volumes of theory that you so evidently consume in your every spare moment perhaps you should pause and reflect on the tone of your communication and your attitude towards others. Just because you know a little about theory - yes I said a little and that no doubt stings someone with a sense of hubris as rampant as your own - doesn't make you 'right' when it comes to songwriting and it certainly doesn't make you better than those who produce or write in front of a computer....

[PaulAds]

i'm not a maths tutor...but i do know that 2+2=4

Shouldn't that be "But I do know 1+1=2"? 

=Sam Cooke?

[GuyBarry]

I'm glad you replied here Guy, thanks for that.

I can't understand how you don't notice (I'm tempted to think you do notice but allow yourself to ignore it) how your replies come across as aggressive, egotistical and self-righteous. Even this one I'm replying to right now, starts off with great diplomacy. You took my points and answered them in detail, with honesty (it seems) and publicly (as I requested).

Indeed, and that's what I generally try to do on internet forums.  I like to show that I'm paying attention to what the other person's saying.  I know the "point-by-point" style can get a bit tedious for other posters sometimes but I think it's important in a discussion like this.  Too often I see debates on the internet where it's clear that the participants haven't really read each other's posts.

Yet at the end, you couldn't help but have another dig. Another reminder how the other resources you tap are superior to this one. A little stab at the other members by the implication that their musical impulses are sterile because they involve a computer.

I was just saying what I preferred.  I couldn't sit in front of a computer to make music.  I spend enough time at the computer as it is (like taking part in this forum!).  If I were making all my music at the computer, and using the computer as my primary means of interaction with other musicians, I'd go nuts.  I'd become disconnected from the actual musical performance.

A computer is a tool, like a french horn or a tambourine. It doesn't sterilise the music. It captures it. By that definition, every recording artist is sterile because they used a machine while they were making music. An analogue recording studio may not be a 'computer' in the accepted sense, but it does the same thing, minus a few tricks. A computer does not create the music for you. It doesn't write the song.

Fair enough.  We've got a digital recording studio at the Rec House, running Logic Pro.  I don't know anything about the technical side of things (though I wouldn't mind learning the software at some point).  But we are first and foremost a live music venue.  All the recordings we've produced have been of musicians singing and playing instruments.  On my recording I had someone in to play the keyboard and the producer (a very talented guy who's sadly now left) played all the other instruments.  It wouldn't have been anything like as much fun if I'd done it all myself at the computer.

I've previously remarked on the fact that a lot of the music posted here is rather gloomy for my liking.  I wonder if that's at least partly a result of the way that it's been created?  I've pretty much given up on the review forums because I was finding it all so depressing.

If you can be polite, respectful and gracious in your contributions here, I still maintain that you're very welcome, Guy. It's just that you haven't been - and it's not just me who thinks so.

OK, well once again I'm sorry for any offence I've caused.  The last time this happened I decided to take a break from the forum.  Perhaps I'll do so again - as soon as I've posted I Never Expected You!  If that doesn't bring a smile to everyone's lips, nothing will  

[GuyBarry]

There's being informative, helpful and taking pride in the information you post and then there's flagellating yourself on the floor with the theory you profess to so abundantly possess... I have a fair indication which applies to you and in case you're in any doubt it is not the first one...

I'm certainly not flagellating myself at the moment!  That'd be rather painful.

The second comment exposes that elitist  sense of musical privilege that has now become the inarguable characteristic of your posts on the forum.

You see, again you equate knowledge of music theory with "privilege" and "elitism".  Knowledge of theory isn't privileged or elitist - anyone can learn it if they're willing and able.  I started learning theory when I was a child, as I've mentioned before, and it's hard-wired into my musical brain to some extent.  I really do hear chords as dominant or submediant, it's not something I've imposed on my musical perception.  I'm sorry if that comes across as snobbish but I'm simply incapable of hearing music any other way.

In between digesting the volumes of theory that you so evidently consume in your every spare moment...

No I don't.  Generally I don't need to.  I'm trying to learn something about jazz chords at the moment because I'd like to write more in a jazz idiom.  That's all.

perhaps you should pause and reflect on the tone of your communication and your attitude towards others. Just because you know a little about theory - yes I said a little and that no doubt stings someone with a sense of hubris as rampant as your own - doesn't make you 'right' when it comes to songwriting

I never said it did.  I've only ever said that theory informs the creative process.  Of course you can write music without a knowledge of theory, just as you can write literature without a knowledge of grammar.  But I've never heard anyone claim that knowing grammar makes you a worse author, or inhibits the literary instinct, or that writers who know grammar are in some way "elitist".  Why take this attitude to music theory?

and it certainly doesn't make you better than those who produce or write in front of a computer....

Not better - just different.  I've spent several hours in front of a computer this morning just dealing with all the points in this thread.  I wasn't planning to.  I'm already getting muscle strain and if I had to sit here to write music as well I'd be exhausted!

In fact I really ought to go out for a walk and get some exercise.  Enough for now!

[Sing4me88]

I'm certainly not flagellating myself at the moment!  That'd be rather painful.


You see, again you equate knowledge of music theory with "privilege" and "elitism".  Knowledge of theory isn't privileged or elitist - anyone can learn it if they're willing and able.  I started learning theory when I was a child, as I've mentioned before, and it's hard-wired into my musical brain to some extent.  I really do hear chords as dominant or submediant, it's not something I've imposed on my musical perception.  I'm sorry if that comes across as snobbish but I'm simply incapable of hearing music any other way.


Not better - just different.  

I've never beaten myself with a music theory book for self gratification and pleasure so I'll have to take your word on how painful it would be...

You see Guy this is the crux of the issue - every time you are pulled on your condescension you try to tie people up with the semantics of your posts while consistently overlooking the context they were made within, the tone they were expressed in and the fact that its an open music forum for a community that surprise surprise contains more than just you.

You've already taking a derisory attitude to people who have answered your questions in a way that sought to help you and others with little or no theoretical knowledge. You've also left posters with little doubt that as a bunch of computer bedroom producers they have little to offer you unlike the talented folk at the Rec House who seem to be on the lofty heights of musical genius that you inhabit and you've finished off a recent post with the smug declaration that your next song will not be 'gloomy' like the songs everyone else writes but will make everyone smile. It's going to be galling to hear this Guy but just because you think your songs are fun and the greatest thing ever written since the 1930's and a few people at the Rec House agree with you doesn't actually make it so. To be completely frank - and the objectivity of individual taste notwithstanding - I've seen the square root of fuck all to substantiate your superiority complex. You are very quickly becoming a distraction on this forum for me. Your threads invariably descend into a 'let's show these poor idiots how much theory I know' spectacles and to be honest it's getting tiring now. It's neither impressive nor intimidating if I'm honest...

Ironically you end with an admission that you do not see yourself as 'better' just 'different' - perhaps for everyone's sake you can start reflecting that in your posts instead of belittling everyone, running down the forum as a 'producers' forum not fit for actual musical writers like yourself or threatening to leave when people tell you to wind your neck in.

[GuyBarry]

You see Guy this is the crux of the issue - every time you are pulled on your condescension you try to tie people up with the semantics of your posts while consistently overlooking the context they were made within, the tone they were expressed in and the fact that its an open music forum for a community that surprise surprise contains more than just you.

I've spent quite a long time attempting to engage with this forum - I didn't turn up yesterday.  I went away once before because people appeared to dislike my attitude.  That was over lyrics.  I've come back again, and the same thing has happened over harmonies.  I'm not an arrogant person by nature, so the only thing I can conclude is that I'm completely out of step with the forum consensus, and I'd rather go somewhere else.
 

It's going to be galling to hear this Guy but just because you think your songs are fun and the greatest thing ever written since the 1930's and a few people at the Rec House agree with you doesn't actually make it so.

I performed four of my songs on Thursday night, ending with "I Never Expected You".  It was a special occasion that we'd put on to attract people from all over Bath, not just our little local community.  Most of them were non-musicians and had been specially invited by the organizer, who has all sorts of impressive contacts.  We were trying to do a "professional" show.

They went down a bomb.  People came up to me afterwards and complimented me.  I've created contacts with all sorts of local musicians because of that set.  They loved it and I knew they would.  I gauge my audience and I try to give them what they want.

To be completely frank - and the objectivity of individual taste notwithstanding - I've seen the square root of fuck all to substantiate your superiority complex.

I don't have a "superiority complex".  I get feedback from the audience who are there right in front of me.  I love performing and I love having a live audience.  If it had gone down flat on the night I'd have been the first to know.

[Sing4me88]

I feel I'm pissing against the wind replying time after time to you. You're much too quick with a response that ignores the issues addressed and every time you seem to have a truly amazing ability to sound more pompous than before.

I think I'm just going to ignore your nonsense now but before I sign off I'd just like to add that perhaps at the next Rec House love in with the great and good of the thriving Bath music cartel you should ask for a gold star and/or a pat on the back - it's clearly what you are angling for on here and aren't getting.... 

[GuyBarry]

I feel I'm pissing against the wind replying time after time to you. You're much too quick with a response that ignores the issues addressed

I've addressed every point that you've made.  However, since you don't like my responses, here's one that will no doubt suit you better.

I'm an absolutely crappy songwriter with an over-inflated sense of importance, and I am not worthy to lick the boots of the geniuses who frequent this forum.

Happy now?

[Oldbutyet]

Cool Guy, its a songwriters forum, we all live whatever