[tone]

Lord knows how pianists read ten notes simultaneously!

With great flipping difficulty. For me it all comes down to recognising intervals by sight. You don't need to read C-E-G-B if you can register C plus a stack of thirds (roughly). The bigger the intervals, the harder this gets of course, plus you potentially need to do it for both hands. But once you get past a certain point, octaves become obvious, which makes all the intervals in between a bit easier too. Sight reading is still my weakest area, and will probably always be a work in progress.

Well I think I'm going to part company with this forum.  It's like dealing with a lot of people who say they can write literature and don't know how to spell.  Utterly ridiculous.

Hold your horses there Guy... It's not like that at all. You don't have to be able to spell to be able to speak. That seems like a much better analogy to me. If someone asks me, are you using the subjunctive tense in that sentence, the fact that I might not know doesn't invalidate the quality or content of the sentence. It just means I haven't learned the fancy words that describe grammar.

As for being insulted, I don't think skub's post was intentionally insulting. Just an opposing point of view. But to come back and insinuate that skub or anyone who agrees with him/ doesn't see value in using theory is somehow stupid is just rude.

So you don't agree with the 'consensus' in this community. So what? No reason you can't be friends/ friendly/ co-operative with those who see/ hear the world differently. If the songs are good, enjoy them. If not, move along. No need to get uppity though.

[Viscount Cramer & His Orchestra]

I'm sure that most of us have some basic theory Guy but a lot of us also think that it is possible to write and to communicate with other musicians without knowing it all.

If you would just accept that this is a possibility, then we would all get along fine. I don't think that a 'make it up as you go along' consensus has developed here at all.
I'm sure there were plenty of jobbing musicians who also wrote songs back in the 30s - some of those blues guys for example - who weren't thoroughly versed in theory. It just so happens that the ones you like - Cole Porter, for one - undoubtedly were. That doesn't mean that the songs of Leadbelly, for example, are any less valid. It might to you though.

And transposition is widely known I'm sure, but to transpose a song up a tone you don't have to know what key it's in. You just transpose the chords up a tone don't you?

[Boydie]

I didn't read SKUB's comment as insulting at all  

He was just saying that those without a grounding in music theory can STILL write a good song by listening

Keys are a construct placed on music with our western musical history and values. All theory came after the music NOT before.

This is a VERY important piece of information to keep in mind at all times - if you let the "tail wag the dog" you could miss out

Well I think I'm going to part company with this forum.  It's like dealing with a lot of people who say they can write literature and don't know how to spell.  Utterly ridiculous.

I have to say that is quite a bizarre stance, which is made all the more strange by your example!

There are plenty of imaginative writers who I am sure can't spell!

Isn't the "story" more important than how it is written?

I declare myself as a music theory anorak who has worked as a guitar teacher - but I would NEVER dream of claiming that those who write songs without such a grounding are "utterly ridiculous"

If they were attempting to write a classical piece for an orchestra then I accept it would be quite a challenge to write a score without a solid grounding in music theory (although not impossible)

However, I maintain that an excellent song can be written without a grounding in music theory

I do agree that a sound knowledge of music theory would help (which is why I want to find a way to teach it in an interesting and practical way) but I think you are completely wrong in your assertion that songwriters HAVE to have it

If you can whistle a tune and write some lyrics then you are a songwriter - no music theory at all is needed

If you do not have the knowledge to create the chords, backing track, harmony parts etc. you can always find someone to help or learn yourself

I think it is worth quoting TBSOWELL again:

All theory came after the music NOT before.

I genuinely hope you stay around but if you maintain this point of view and want to clash with those that disagree then this may not be the best forum for you

HOWEVER - variety is the spice of life and I think you would grow more as a songwriter/composer if you collaborated with a "creative soul" that does not have a grounding in music theory

[GuyBarry]

Hold your horses there Guy... It's not like that at all. You don't have to be able to spell to be able to speak. That seems like a much better analogy to me. If someone asks me, are you using the subjunctive tense in that sentence, the fact that I might not know doesn't invalidate the quality or content of the sentence. It just means I haven't learned the fancy words that describe grammar.

OK, fair point.  I don't expect everyone here to know loads of technical stuff about cadences or augmented and diminished intervals and so on.  But key?  I'm sorry, I just don't get it.  It's absolutely fundamental to Western music.  Every piece of music is in a key.  It's not something that's imposed on us - it's the basis on which our music has developed.  There's plenty of music around the world that isn't based on Western ideas of tonality, like Indian ragas and so on.  I don't know much about those genres, so I can't comment.  However, every single song that I've heard posted to this  forum has most definitely been in a key, and that's hardly a coincidence.  It's the whole basis of our musical culture.

As for being insulted, I don't think skub's post was intentionally insulting. Just an opposing point of view. But to come back and insinuate that skub or anyone who agrees with him/ doesn't see value in using theory is somehow stupid is just rude.

It was rude, and I apologize.  I think Skub was rather rude to me but we'll never see eye to eye about anything, I'm afraid.

So you don't agree with the 'consensus' in this community. So what? No reason you can't be friends/ friendly/ co-operative with those who see/ hear the world differently. If the songs are good, enjoy them. If not, move along. No need to get uppity though.

I've made some useful connections with a couple of people here, but to be honest I got far more from the one meeting of Bath Songwriters that I attended last week than I've had from the whole of my time here.  The handful of people there actually seemed to know something about the construction of harmonies, melodies and lyrics.  This is basically a forum about song production, not about writing.   Perhaps you should consider renaming it.

[tone]

All I can say is that I wish I'd been a songwriter in the 1930s.  I'd have made a killing.

If understanding complex harmonic structure is the only prerequisite for writing hit songs, then you're living in a far easier time right now. All you need is 3-5 chords in a loop and you're good to go. What's holding you back?

As far as telling me what (not my any more) forum is about, you're being rude again. You've been here a few weeks/ months and you're telling me to rename a forum I've created from nothing over 6 years?

I think you're confusing knowledge with talent and worthiness, and you're coming across as quite egotistical. As for every piece of western music being in a key, please tell me what key this is in:

[Boydie]

This is basically a forum about song production, not about writing.

No it isn't - it is about ALL songwriting, we don't exclude the things we don't like - we encourage them

There are songwriters here that are enjoying commercial success with their songwriting and/or have current publishing deals

In these circles (whether you like it or agree with it or not) when pitching songs the production and performance needs to be to a very high standard so all facets of songwriting are discussed and not excluded

Likewise we can discuss music theory, scales, modes etc. - it is all good

What do you want to talk about?

I think this is an interesting discussion so don't take it personally - the "reaction" is mainly about how you are coming across as a bit of a "know it all" when there are many members of this forum enjoying success with their songwriting and some who work in the music industry

You seem able to accept the points being made and I think TONE has really hit the nail on the head here:

I think you're confusing knowledge with talent and worthiness

[Martinswede]

Hi!

At first I thought this thread was about the timbre of different keys and the possibility
that a certain key i out of your vocal range. That when it sounds at its best you might
need to find a singer who can handle that vocal range. It was not.
Neither was it about key as a reference point in writing chord structures.
Instead it was about music theory. I've studied basic music theory at the local university
I learned basics in theory and chord analysis. Since it was focused on classical music
it didn't really go along with me.

If you learn music from sheet music key is vital. Its so important that you might forget it. If
you learn music by other means key is almost relative.

Ive played guitar for 15 years now and because of the marvelous capo I don't need transposition
as much as I might have to. When I play with others I usually don't ask for the key. Out of politeness.
I might ask for the chord progression and work my way from there Em G Bm C D/F# G - well E minor.

When I write I always know the key and it helps a lot when adding chords.
If i love Em to Dsus2 to Gmaj7 well why not play it in B flat instead.
And then scales. When I add lead guitar (I hope I can post some track soon) I know how to
modify the 'back of my head' C major scale to the right key.

I hope you get my point. If you don't know an expression, I first thought language but that's
giving music theory too much credit, you might not know when you could have use for it.


Ps. Bartok sounds like G minor to me Ds.

Cheers,
- Martin

[Skub]

I'd just like to answer Skub's rather insulting suggestion that I don't listen to music.

Dear oh dear oh dear.  

Guy did you notice the little emoticon at the end of my post?

It was this one.  

You've had a sense of humour failure and you need to try a little perspective. It's a forum,not a matter of life or death. For goodness sake,get on and enjoy the forum in your own way,but don't be expecting folk to tip-toe around your oversensitive feelings,or be ever so polite at all times,otherwise you'll be in a cycle of repeatedly being offended when none was intended.

Neat rhyme at the end.   .....er...

[Skub]

I'm going to ask another question.

Let's say you've written a song in C.  You've got a vocalist to perform that song, but it doesn't fit her (or his) range, so the vocalist wants to sing it in F.  What do you do?

For me it's straightforward.  I just transpose all the chords up a fourth, so that it suits the vocalist.

No idea what I'd do if I just regarded the harmony as a sequence of chords.  By doing that, you're saying that any given song can only be performed in one key.

I sing with a community choir.  We try out songs in all sorts of different keys until we find one that fits the range of the singers.  Is the concept of "transposition" completely unfamiliar here?

Have you settled down yet Guy? 

I'll answer this question honestly and try not to be rude,though my wife says I just can't help myself!

The key change thing happens to me a lot. Scenario one,I'll write a song in a particular key..to use your example,we'll say it's in C major. Problem is Fiona needs it to be in F.
I don't know a lot about music theory and I don't read music at all,so in this case the options open to me are.
1. Play it in F. 
2. Stick a capo on the fifth fret and play using the same C major shape.
3. Stick a capo on the first fret and play using the E major shape.
4. Stick a capo on the eighth fret and play in the A major shape.....etc..

A capo is not a numpties tool,as some would contend,all those positions give very different tonalities.

See,I may not know much about theory,but I do know my fretboard and I've played in enough bands to be able to play in any key. I never learned transposition from a book,I learned it from playing with others and having to be quick off the mark.

For what it's worth I'd encourage anyone to learn all aspects of music,I'm not anti theory,condescending or patronising to those who have head knowledge,it's all information and you should have more respect and tolerance for those not conforming to your idea of normal.

[S.T.C]

He must be running short of courgettes ....seems a bit tetchy about something....

[Jambrains]

I won't fuel the fire but this reminded me of something related: how the key affects the impact of the song as such. Swedish musician/songwriter Nicklas Frisk (Atomic Swing, A Camp) said in an interview (when talking about the importance of the key):
"C # is the coldest and the most evil of all keys. Take Search and Destroy (in C # with Iggy Pop), it would have been unthinkable in C. C # is the most piercing key available and blue as stainless steel."
As a side note he also associates keys with colors but that is another story...

Without knowing Search and Destroy I get what he is after, some songs seem to work i.e. "sound right" only in one (or maybe few) keys typically songs built around a guitar riff involving open strings. Not only can they be hard to play in another key (unless you use a capo) but they will still sound "wrong" with a capo or when dropping the guitar a half or whole step.

That I find very intriguing....

[Viscount Cramer & His Orchestra]

This may have some merit. Who am I to say?

Yes, the open string thing. I used to mess around with a song by Ray Charles...what was it now....can't remember, anyway I used to tune the D string down a semitone so I could play barred 9ths with just one finger...nice, especially that open A9...loved it....made some of the other chord shapes a bit tricky to remember though!

As for 'Search And Destroy' - which you really ought to listen to Mr Jambrains - I think it was a lot more than the key that made that recording what it is. As someone commented on YouTube 'This song is so loud and dirty!!!!! I love it!!! Makes me want to hit, break, throw or f*** something!!! I'll probably just eat some ice cream and fall asleep on the couch though.'

here it is.....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDNzQ3CXspU

[pompeyjazz]

Iggy at his best. The whole album merits a listen. It really is Raw Power

[Sing4me88]

All I can say is that I wish I'd been a songwriter in the 1930s.  I'd have made a killing.

And I wish I'd thought of Facebook before Zuckerberg did cos I'd have made a killing.....

Knowing or not knowing a certain amount of theory is immaterial and not in any way like trying to write without knowing how to spell. Music is not all or even mainly about theory nor does it belong to theorists - otherwise we are indulging in music snobbery. There's plenty of very successful songwriters out there with next to no theory - they seemed to be able to get along fine with key changes etc. It's very easy to lose sight of the bigger picture when getting wrapped up in ones own self-importance and delusions of grandeur....

[pompeyjazz]

I've tried that angry sounding C# stuff tonight. Yep it's dead angry. I just put Raw Power on and played along to the whole album. Great guitar Exercise. I'VE GOT BLISTERS ON MY FINGERS