[GuyBarry]

I've just read and contributed to the thread about chord progressions in "Streets of London".  I thought it was an interesting question and answered it as best I could.  Almost everyone else in the thread, though, seemed to be of the view that theory really didn't matter and you should just go with what sounds good.

Here are some chords I've just written for a swing number I'm working on.  (I've never written in that style before.)

F6   | Db6 C9 | F6 Ebmaj7 | D9  |
Gm7 C9 | F6 Dm7 | Db6   | Gm7 C9 |
F6   | Db6 C9 | F6 Ebmaj7 | D9  G9 |
C9   | F6 Dm7 | G7   | C9 F7 |
Bb7   | F9   | Bb7   | F9   |
Bb7 E7 | Am7 D7 | G7   | C9 F7 |
Bb7   | F9   | Bb7   | F9   |
Bb7 E7 | Am7 D7 | Gm7 C9  | F6   |

There is simply no way I could have come up with all that without some knowledge of theory.  I had a basic chord structure in mind and then experimented at the keyboard to work out the best notes to add to each chord.

Take the progression from Bb7 to E7, for instance.  It works because there's an enharmonic change from the Ab in the first chord to the G# in the second, plus the third of the first chord (D) becomes the seventh of the second.  I think it sounds great but I'd never have come up with it out of the blue!

Once again, as on other occasions, I feel out of step with the consensus here (apart from Vicki and maybe one or two others).  I'm interested in the details of construction of harmonies, of melodies, of lyrics, and they're the very things that don't seem to get discussed.  Why not?

[Boydie]

I had a basic chord structure in mind and then experimented at the keyboard to work out the best notes to add to each chord.

I think you may have answered your own question there!

The fact that you experimented and "found" the notes that sounded good is what most people do without a deep knowledge of harmony

To many this is the "joy" of songwriting - the feeling that you have "discovered" something

In reality most things that "sound good" to western ears is very likely to be explainable with VERY simple music theory

However, I personally think a good grasp/knowledge of music theory is a very powerful tool in a songwriter's toolkit

I like to think of music theory as a map or "sat nav" when travelling on a car journey

Some people like to just set off on a journey and find their own way to a destination

Some people like to meticulously follow a sat nav and not really think about anything whilst driving

Some people like to just have it there as a "safety net" in case they get lost

Sat navs can also be used to find completely new ways to get somewhere, which take in breathtaking scenery and open up a whole world of new ways to get somewhere

Even is you don't follow a sat nav or map you could always use one to review your journey and understand how you got where you did and note any particular areas of interest along the way - in the same way that music theory can ALWAYS explain why something "worked" or didn't work

I have spent a lot of time learning music theory by gaining my Grade 8 in guitar and I have recently completed an advanced diploma in music theory

I am currently in the process of putting together a "scheme of works" / lesson plans to distil music theory down to the essentials that I think songwriters and producers would want to know (which I will be testing with members of the forums when I get something down!)

[CaliaMoko]

I am currently in the process of putting together a "scheme of works" / lesson plans to distil music theory down to the essentials that I think songwriters and producers would want to know (which I will be testing with members of the forums when I get something down!)

I am looking forward to seeing this! I only ever got so far in theory and then I bogged down and couldn't make any further sense of it. I've tackled the subject a couple times since college but I always get lost when it starts getting complicated.

I'm about ready for another attempt!

[delb0y]

I enjoy music theory a lot – be it scales, chords, progressions, whatever. In fact it’s one reason why I’m a rubbish improviser – I always end up adhering far too closely to the rules. When I analyse solos that I like, I often discover that my favourite bits are where the rules get broken, where a “wrong” note is played, thus creating a bit of frisson and tension. But even being aware of this when I solo I always end up sticking closely to the chord or scale tones, or falling back on well used licks or pentatonic scales. 

All that said, when it comes to song-writing I tend not to think in terms of theory at all. It all comes down to feeling and a good story. Probably should use some of that theory to break out of the few melodies and chord sequences that I always fall back on, but then I find I don’t have the ability to sing complex lines over unusual sequences so what’s the point? I see no reason to write a song I can’t perform. So it’s three chord tricks, ii-V-1s, diminished passing chords, and the circle of fifths for me 

[tone]

I'm another theory hound. But I disagree that it's essential to good songwriting, or that it can inhibit the creative process in any way.

Here's how I see it. Making music is primarily about using your ears. Something either sounds good (or how you want it to sound) or it doesn't. End of. You might understand the names of the chords or cadences or modes or scales that create that sound or you might not. Not knowing the names doesn't mean you can't come up with super-complex chord sequences. Although maybe it makes it unlikely.

I tend to leave thinking about theory out of the songwriting process too - although if I paint myself into a harmonic corner, I will occasionally call on my theory knowledge to escape the maze. Theory can also come in useful when 'painting' the finished arrangement, creating extended chords and such like with the different instruments.

As for why most people seem to hold learning theory in disdain, I honestly think it's a combination of finding it dull (maybe it reminds them of painful childhood music lessons taken under duress) and that they believe the myth that it stifles creativity. Let me burst that bubble right now: show me a classical composer, and I'll show you someone who knows their theory inside out and lacks nothing in creativity...

[pompeyjazz]

An interesting topic. Agree that is a very useful skill set. Personally my only music theory was some music lessons at school which to be honest at the time I found painfully dull. In hindsight I wish I'd paid more attention. As I'm completely self taught I couldn't tell you what chords I'm playing half of the time but for songwriters I don't think that matters too much. You know when something fits with something else, like Tone says its a matter of using your ears. Not saying theory isn't important, just that its not essential

[PaulAds]

My dad was a music teacher, conductor, tenor horn player and occasionally an adjudicator. I started learning to play trombone when I was three or so and learned quite a lot of theory when I was a kid...but a 50/50 combination of boredom and failure to measure up (my dad, brother and grandad were all very good players) ended up with me turning my back on the whole thing by the time I was 14 (I did win my solo section at a county-wide music contest when I was 13, so I wasn't a turkey)

There's nothing quite like sitting in the Royal Albert Hall all day listening to 24 brass bands all play the same 20-minute test piece to decide which one played it marginally better than all the others to put you off.

Theory and practicing...I found it too much of a brain-ache to take it all in. Discovering the clash 1st album meant that instead of fiddling about picking the lock, I could just kick the door down. It was quite liberating, because before that, the best player almost always won, and if you couldn't jump through the hoops, there was no place for you.

The unfortunate chip on my shoulder that I've always had often left me feeling that there was a lot of elitism in the music world.

Sorry...this has turned into a bit of a ramble 

Time for my tablet...

[tone]

The unfortunate chip on my shoulder that I've always had often left me feeling that there was a lot of elitism in the music world.

There is a lot of elitism in the music world. Hell, there's elitism in all the arts, and in pretty much everything else a (wo)man can do. I totally get how growing up in that environment can make you feel bored or stifled though. To me it's the downfall of the classical music world that they teach kids the way they do (or did). Music is fun, whether it's pop, classical, jazz, whatever. Sure, we all want to be good, but having a good start in an inclusive environment goes a hell of a long way. And we can't all be concert-standard performers, but that shouldn't mean we don't have a place.

I'm glad you discovered the Clash, Paul. It's great that you still play music after your early trauma

[Sing4me88]

Theory has a place in songwriting and music making fo'sure but like any expressive medium it is not an answer to every and any problem nor is it a guarantee to writing 'good' songs nor is conversely a barrier to writing good songs. I see it kinda like sport - reading all the books you like on martial arts is going to turn you into Bruce Lee. Try sticking to what you read and you'll get outclassed by someone who follows their natural instinct and where the fight/duel is going. The same with music - be aware f theory but follow what sounds 'right' in terms of what vibe or sound you are looking for.

[pompeyjazz]

The Clash... Ah, don't get me started. An absolute revolution in music. It was like, Hang on, I can join this party too, it's not the exclusive little club that you're not allowed to enter. I personally think that punk was the biggest revolution that ever happened in music but then I am of that era but I'm still proud to retain that ethos

[PaulAds]

Ha! I just remembered...

when the adjudicator presented me with 1st prize at that contest...he saw my surname and said "oh, are you one of Colin's lads?" (Colin, of course, being my dad)

Even in victory, there was no escape!

My dad's 86 now...a lovelier man you couldn't hope to meet. I was never under pressure from anyone but myself 

[Skub]

It's all information
Some learned and some guessed
I use what I need to
And leave all the rest
Theory and schooling
Can open a door
When I run out of music
I go learn me sum moar

 

[adamfarr]

The answer is in the middle... Neither Washington nor Moscow...

[PaulAds]

The Clash... Ah, don't get me started. An absolute revolution in music. It was like, Hang on, I can join this party too, it's not the exclusive little club that you're not allowed to enter. I personally think that punk was the biggest revolution that ever happened in music but then I am of that era but I'm still proud to retain that ethos

This.

[GuyBarry]

Good thread, but... I want to try an experiment.  Here's the chord sequence I originally posted.

F6   | Db6 C9 | F6 Ebmaj7 | D9  |
Gm7 C9 | F6 Dm7 | Db6   | Gm7 C9 |
F6   | Db6 C9 | F6 Ebmaj7 | D9  G9 |
C9   | F6 Dm7 | G7   | C9 F7 |
Bb7   | F9   | Bb7   | F9   |
Bb7 E7 | Am7 D7 | G7   | C9 F7 |
Bb7   | F9   | Bb7   | F9   |
Bb7 E7 | Am7 D7 | Gm7 C9  | F6   |

I haven't told you anything about the melody or lyrics that I'm imagining with it.  If you were given that chord sequence and asked to write a song around it, what would you come up with?