[GuyBarry]

Since we're getting onto more "technical" stuff now I wanted to make an observation about the actual notation of music.  I realize that some people here don't read or write staff notation but I always like to make sure that my melodies and chords are written down, firstly so that I can give them to other people to play, secondly so that I've got a record for copyright reasons, and thirdly so that I don't forget them myself!  (You have no idea how many times I've forgotten my own tune and had to write a new one.)

For some reason, I seem to be writing a lot in 12/8 time recently.  Both of my most recent songs have been in 12/8, although I wasn't aware of that until I started trying to write them down!  In case anyone doesn't know, that means four beats in the bar, with each beat divided into three quavers.  It seems to be quite good for swing and jazz tunes generally.

But it's a nightmare to write out in conventional staff notation.  Each beat is represented by a dotted crotchet, so if I want to write a note that's three beats long, I can't do it with a single note symbol - I have to write a dotted minim (two beats) tied to a dotted crotchet (one beat).  There is simply no single symbol to represent a note that's nine quavers long, even though they crop up all the time in 12/8.

In some ways it would be simpler to write the time signature as 4/4 and notate the whole thing in triplets - but then you run up against the problem that you're using the same symbol (crotchet) to represent a single beat and two-thirds of a beat.  They're only distinguished by the fact that the latter has the "-3-" bracket symbol over it, and I get a bit fed up with writing them throughout the whole song.  (Yes, I still write sheet music out by hand - I've got some music printing software but still haven't got to grips with it.)

In my fantasy notation system, there'd be a variable relationship between crotchets and quavers.  The time-signature would tell you not only how many crotchet beats in a bar, but how many quavers in a crotchet.  So ordinary 4/4 time would be "4 x 2" and 12/8 time would be "4 x 3".  You'd need an extra symbol to represent two-thirds of a beat - perhaps the mirror image of a quaver?

Maybe this doesn't bother too many people here but it drives me nuts!

[Viscount Cramer & His Orchestra]

It's common - in fact I think it's standard practice -  to notate jazz (if it is 4/4) straight and to indicate at the top of the score 'with a swing feel' or some such thing. There is a symbol they use for this

 Don't take my word for it just in case it's bad info. Google 'swing notation' to get all the right info.

[GuyBarry]

Oh thanks!  I found this post about it:

https://www.ars-nova.com/Theory%20Q&A/Q40.html

Makes a lot more sense and I'll write it out that way.

EDIT: There is one slight problem - there are a few places in the melody where the beat is divided into three equal notes.  How would I write those out?

[CaliaMoko]

I run into this, as well. I do often use "swing rhythm" (I use Encore, which has a swing rhythm setting), but there are times (sorry, can't think of an example at the moment) when that doesn't work as well as others. It sometimes becomes a trade-off, I have to try to choose a method with the smaller annoyance factor. That can be any of the three: using 12/8, using "swing rhythm", or writing in triplets.

When I need a three beat note in 12/8 time, I always use three tied, let's see, what is that word in British???--crotchet, I think...no wait. It's a minim. Arghh! I need to translate...hang on....

Okay, got it. When I need a three beat note in 12/8 time, I always used three dotted crotchets, tied.

[Viscount Cramer & His Orchestra]

Triplets? You must have thought of that so try googling again.

[GuyBarry]

Triplets? You must have thought of that so try googling again.

Right, so basically if I divide the beat into two quavers it means "2/3, 1/3", and if I divide it into three triplet quavers it means "1/3, 1/3, 1/3".  I'm fine with that as long as other people understand the notation.

Don't understand where this strict binary division of note-values came from, but it's a pain in the arse.

[GuyBarry]

When I need a three beat note in 12/8 time, I always use three tied, let's see, what is that word in British???--crotchet, I think...no wait. It's a minim. Arghh! I need to translate...hang on....

Okay, got it. When I need a three beat note in 12/8 time, I always used three dotted crotchets, tied.

The ones with the black heads and no hook are crotchets (quarter-notes), so a dotted crotchet is a single beat in 12/8 time.  You write three of them tied together?  I think it's bad enough writing a dotted minim (two beats) tied to a dotted crotchet (one beat).

Our traditional system of notation isn't suited to three subdivisions of the beat.  No wonder a lot of people don't understand it.

[tone]

I think specifying swing rhythm and using triplets where needed will be fine. I get that it 'feels' wrong with the pen, but the other workarounds are more awkward. Basically, so long as the person reading the score can figure it out (which I'm sure they could) and you know how to read back what you've written (which I'm sure you will) you're good to go.

[CaliaMoko]

The ones with the black heads and no hook are crotchets (quarter-notes), so a dotted crotchet is a single beat in 12/8 time.  You write three of them tied together?  I think it's bad enough writing a dotted minim (two beats) tied to a dotted crotchet (one beat).

Yes, I have done that. But I decided to check out what has been done by professionals, so I looked at the music I used to use with my quartet. I found three songs that fit this discussion. One of them is in 4/4, marked swing rhythm, and two of them are in 12/8.

When using 12/8 time signature, three beats--on the sheet music--is indicated by a dotted half note (minim) and a dotted quarter note (crotchet), tied together. So that's probably how I will do it from now on. If I remember. If I write any more 12/8 music.