[MartynRich]

Then you should put Stock, Aitkin and Waterman into the se box. They obviously had something too.

[Sing4me88]

I didn't say the 'greats' weren't great - others have said modern writers aren't.....

[Helena4]

Yeah, I defintiely think there are great songwriters about you just have to actually be looking a bit - there are amazing songwriters out right now, you can't say they don't exist just cos you haven't heard them, and you're too busy worshipping the past to look.

And there are definitely songs of merit in the charts too, there are songs I love in the charts...

And yep, Ed Sheeran does well I just hate him haha. But I was having a conversation on another forum today about how I'm not a big fan of the Beatles. They're significant but I don't find them particularly earth shattering - they're significant mostly cos they were so ridiculously popular. I'm not gonna be blown away just because somethings popular and I'm supposed to like it. (Disclaimer here - I much prefer the Beatles to Ed sheeran and I know its rather silly to be mentioning the two in the same point). Mostly I see the Beatles as an important step towards things actually getting really interesting haha.

*Helena soon after this post got shot by a Beatlemaniac assassin and her obituary read: "not as earth shattering as John Lennon's assasination"*

[tone]

Hmmm, it's really interesting seeing what different people think makes a 'great' song.

For example, Max Martin's hit after hit after hit does not make him a great songwriter in my opinion. It doesn't make him a bad one either. It makes him a highly successful producer with access to in-demand performers who are a crucial part of the success he enjoys. I won't pretend I know many of his songs, but I don't consider them 'great'. They're repetitive, predictable and somewhat insipid - in my opinion at any rate.

Mr Blobby was a massive hit, but I think we can all agree, it's not a great song. Are there great writers who've had no hits? I would say so, but I'm working from a different definition of 'great' to some of you.

I think what STC is noticing is that there's an absence of a more 'developed' kind of songwriting these days, including more interesting harmonic progressions, less repetition and a few more surprises. More Steely Dan and less Ed Sheeran I suppose.

[S.T.C]

The great songwriters of the past, the one's who created hits back then produced great songs , and it is for this, that they are revered and remembered .
All these hit makers your mentioning will be/ are  forgotten very quickly as will the hits they make..for they know how to manipulate the music audience out there....before bands had to make music for an educated public ,or at leas tone that had experienced great songwriting.....i know i'm right.

Sales mean tosh...it's not a barometer of anything.

[Oldbutyet]

*Helena soon after this post got shot by a Beatlemaniac assassin and her obituary read: "not as earth shattering as John Lennon's assasination"*

You see great songwriting will never be gone, you got more to this dont you, i mean lyrics right.

[Sing4me88]

I think what STC is noticing is that there's an absence of a more 'developed' kind of songwriting these days, including more interesting harmonic progressions, less repetition and a few more surprises.

There's also a noticeable absence of the lute in music these days but I wouldn't argue that the only 'great'musicians were medieval minstrels and bards.......

[Sing4me88]

All these hit makers your mentioning will be/ are  forgotten very quickly as will the hits they make..for they know how to manipulate the music audience out there....before bands had to make music for an educated public ,or at leas tone that had experienced great songwriting.....

So basically anyone who likes Max Martin's songs are stupid? Right outta the Tory manifesto there and demonstrably wrong. I'm a huge Max Martin fan and I'm practically a fucking genius......

[S.T.C]

All these hit makers your mentioning will be/ are  forgotten very quickly as will the hits they make..for they know how to manipulate the music audience out there....before bands had to make music for an educated public ,or at leas tone that had experienced great songwriting.....

So basically anyone who likes Max Martin's songs are stupid? Right outta the Tory manifesto there and demonstrably wrong. I'm a huge Max Martin fan and I'm practically a fucking genius......

I never mentioned Max Martin ,TONE did...i like the dude ,i like the Swedish songwriting cartel ....but
they're not great , just good at what they do.

[tone]

There's also a noticeable absence of the lute in music these days but I wouldn't argue that the only 'great'musicians were medieval minstrels and bards.......

You've (deliberately?) missed my point though. I'm talking about songcraft, not instrumentation. You can write a concerto on a synthesizer or a punk rock shout-along on a cello. I'm saying that the songwriters STC is nostalgic for had more progressive musical attitudes, which are reflected in their songs, which in turn is one of the qualities that makes those songs enduring - or great, if you will.

Only time will tell I suppose, but I think there's a reason why Stock Aitken & Waterman aren't considered great writers, but Prince is, despite the former having more hit singles.

[Oldbutyet]

No offence but for anyone who thinks great songwriting is gone especially songwriters is probably the real reason why the music world is control by people like yous.

[Sing4me88]

All these hit makers your mentioning will be/ are  forgotten very quickly as will the hits they make..for they know how to manipulate the music audience out there....before bands had to make music for an educated public ,or at leas tone that had experienced great songwriting.....

So basically anyone who likes Max Martin's songs are stupid? Right outta the Tory manifesto there and demonstrably wrong. I'm a huge Max Martin fan and I'm practically a fucking genius......

I never mentioned Max Martin ,TONE did...i like the dude ,i like the Swedish songwriting cartel ....but
they're not great , just good at what they do.

I mentioned him and you said all the hit makers I mentioned wrote songs fora more or less dumber public than the 'greats'. The clear logic of that is that anyone who likes a Max Martin song is less educated.....

[Sing4me88]

Why is writing a song that has some loser crying over a photo of their ex something worthy of a  'great' but writing hits that have millions of people dancing in clubs, streets etc isn't worthy of being 'great'?

[tone]

It's got nothing to do with crying vs dancing, and I get the feeling you're being deliberately obtuse...

You're forgetting that a massive portion of pop music has been dance music: disco, abba's dancing queen; rock n roll was popular in no small part because it feel so physical.

As for your logic, you've honed in on one word in an otherwise interesting argument and turned it into a straw man. Whether or not you agree with STC, it's hard to deny that pop music has become more repetitive and less musically complex in the 21st century. It's up to you to decide whether you think it's a good or a bad thing, but I happen to like more variety in a song.

[Helena4]

I love stuff that I can dance to. Mostly I like to dance to The Smiths. I also like to dance to some EDM. But not all of it. I hate the fact that a huge amount of  EDM has th most predictable bloody build up thing going on it's practically making fun of itself. But any artist who fails to make any songs that make me wanna move... they're probably not winning me as a long term fan.