[CaliaMoko]

I took my 12-string to a luthier because the tuning was off when I pressed on the strings. He said it has "bellied up", which is pulling the strings too far away from the neck. He said I could buy another 12-string of a similar value to the one I have for the same price as fixing this one.

I found this website with instructions for fixing the problem.

So I'm looking for opinions.

1. Is it unrealistic to think I can fix it myself by following those instructions?
2. Would different instructions be better?
3. Wouldn't the guitar just belly up again?
4. Should I start looking for a different 12-string?
5. The luthier said I could try tightening the truss rod until the neck has a slight reverse bow in it. Is that advisable??

Wondering,
Vicki

[tone]

Boydie's your man for guitar fixing questions Vicki. If he doesn't pop along shortly you could try dropping him a DM

[Boydie]

It is difficult to tell without seeing it but a "bellied top" is not necessarily bad. Most flat top guitars are supposed to have a nice gradual arch in the area around the bridge. The general advice is to not hasten to "flatten" the top, or let someone talk you in to it!

When you start getting in to these types of repairs the chances of you getting it right without any training is quite remote - and the cost of the tools etc. would quickly build up and you could get a few new guitars for the cost!!!!

I would go back to square one - what is the actual problem?

You mention the action is too high? Do you know what it is? Do you know what you want it to be?

To measure the action: fret the low E string at the first fret and then measure the distance between the top of the 12th fret and the bottom of the low E string - repeat for the high E string

How do you play? If it is a 12 string I am guessing you will be strumming - in which case you will actually get a good sound (and more volume) with a higher action so do you really need it much lower?

There is no problem at all having a completely straight neck or even a reverse bow

You will just need a way to measure the effect of adjusting (tightening) the truss rod. This may help lower the action in the middle of the neck but may lead to rattles and buzzes at the headstock end of the neck - where you are most likely to playing a 12 string I would have thought??

I would like to see a photo of your bridge saddle (the bit of white plastic type material your strings rest on at the bridge)

I would have thought this would be your easiest method of lowering your action - simply remove the saddle from the slot and sand the bottom so that it makes the strings sit lower. There are a few considerations (string angle behind the saddle, what height to aim for etc.) but a new saddle will only be a few $$$ so you can take a few risks

I would be very surprised if you can't get enough of an improvement from adjusting the truss rod and saddle height. I can guide you through doing both of these to see how it goes but I do need to understand "the problem" and the current height - as a really low slinky action on a 12 string may not actually be desirable depending on your playing style, and I am guessing you will not be playing many speed lead runs at the 12th fret on a 12 string acoustic!?!?!?

Does it even matter what the action is above the 5th fret on a 12 string?

Perhaps you would be better off looking at filing / replacing uthe nut to reduce the string height at this end of the neck to make the action in this region a bit lower?

I would still look at the neck first, then the saddle, then the nut

[CaliaMoko]

I would go back to square one - what is the actual problem?

I noticed there was a problem when I realized I was avoiding the 12-string because it didn't sound good anymore. For some reason, I didn't try to analyze why. I recently took it out, tuned it up, and played it, paying attention to what I was hearing. When I'm fretting chords it sounds out of tune. So I checked it with the tuner. Open strings are in tune, but when I fret a string it goes sharp, even on the first fret.

To measure the action: fret the low E string at the first fret and then measure the distance between the top of the 12th fret and the bottom of the low E string - repeat for the high E string

Low E = 4mm
High E = 3mm

How do you play? If it is a 12 string I am guessing you will be strumming - in which case you will actually get a good sound (and more volume) with a higher action so do you really need it much lower?

You guessed it--I strum it. I had already tightened the truss rod some, and it does sound somewhat better now. When I check with the tuner, I can tell each string still goes out of tune when I'm fretting it. The lower strings tend to get progressively sharper the higher I fret. The high strings stay about the same amount of sharp throughout.

There is no problem at all having a completely straight neck or even a reverse bow

You will just need a way to measure the effect of adjusting (tightening) the truss rod. This may help lower the action in the middle of the neck but may lead to rattles and buzzes at the headstock end of the neck - where you are most likely to playing a 12 string I would have thought??

Well, I now have my measurements of the E strings, so I can compare after I tighten the truss rod, if that's what I should do.

I would like to see a photo of your bridge saddle (the bit of white plastic type material your strings rest on at the bridge)

Attached

I would be very surprised if you can't get enough of an improvement from adjusting the truss rod and saddle height. I can guide you through doing both of these to see how it goes but I do need to understand "the problem" and the current height - as a really low slinky action on a 12 string may not actually be desirable depending on your playing style, and I am guessing you will not be playing many speed lead runs at the 12th fret on a 12 string acoustic!?!?!?

Does it even matter what the action is above the 5th fret on a 12 string?

Perhaps you would be better off looking at filing / replacing the nut to reduce the string height at this end of the neck to make the action in this region a bit lower?

I would still look at the neck first, then the saddle, then the nut

I've attached the photo, but it sounds like I should probably tighten the truss rod some more as a next step? Is it ever okay to tighten the truss rod without loosening the strings? Not that I could do that--the end of the truss rod is inside the body.

Thank you, thank you....

PS: Sorry, no pic after all. I get this message every time I try to post with the attachment:
An Error Has Occurred!
The upload folder is full. Please try a smaller file and/or contact an administrator.

[Buc McMaster]

Takes some special tools and beaucoup experience to pull off a repair like that......wouldn't attempt it yourself.  I worked in a retail musical instrument concern for many years and have seen this often enough to know it goes deeper than just a "bellied top".......that's just the manifestation of underlying problems.  You have not mentioned the maker of your particular guitar or how old it is.......can you?

In the first place, a 12-string tuned to pitch exerts a lot of pull on the bridge and the top it is attached to.  And beneath the top are braces.  The environment an instrument lives in can have dramatic effects on it's condition.....too dry, too wet, too hot.  Factors like this make guitar woods move around, swelling and shrinking, which can be tough on glued joints......like those that hold the braces to the underside of the top.  You may have brace problems......if you don't now you soon will.  The bridge is rolling toward the neck, lifting the top behind it and collapsing the top before it.  This distorts the bracing, further exacerbating the problem.  There are other structural issues that could be part of the situation as well, but not having seen the guitar I can't say much to that........

All this is why your strings are rising off the fingerboard, and that is why the notes go sharp as you proceed up the neck.  Tweaking the truss rod will not help this issue.  This not what the truss rod is for at all.  Your repairman may well be right - might be cheaper to replace the instrument.  I can tell you that such repairs are iffy at best and rarely hold up in the long run.  G'luck with it!

[Boydie]

It does sound like there is an "issue" with the bridge/top but from what your luthier is saying about the cost of repair/replacement cost then it does sound like it is not worth repairing this particular guitar (unless it has particular sentimental value)

My suggestions are not an attempt to deal with the cause of the issue but more about dealing with the symptoms to give you a more playable guitar for as long as it lasts

If it is a "strummer" and the main issue is strings going sharp I would guess (bearing in mind I haven't seen it) the main issues are either of the following (or a combination of the 2)

- the bridge is being pulled forwards (towards the headstock) so the strings are making contact with the saddle further towards the sound hole, effectively shortening the distance and making them sound sharper as the intonation is out. Depending on how far out they are you could replace the saddle and shape it at the top so that the contact with the strings is towards the side of the saddle away from the sound hole. You clearly don't have much room to play with but it may be enough to improve the symptoms

- the nut is too high so when you fret strings, especially the first few frets, you are needing to push down so hard you are effectively "bending" the string on the fret. You could try filing down the slots in the nut to lower the strings, but if you over do it you may experiences fret buzz

In all honesty those action heights are not outrageously high for a 12 string acoustic so if you just wanted to treat the symptoms and get it more "playable" then it may be worth looking at the nut

What is the distance between the top of the first fret and the bottom of the low and high E strings (no fretting)?

[CaliaMoko]

@Boydie:
Low E = 1.5 mm
High E = <1 mm (maybe .75?)

Assuming that means the nut is low enough already, would it be likely to make it worse if I tighten the truss rod some more? If so, let's look at the bridge.

I looked at the bridge very carefully. It appears to be totally solid. I can see no evidence of it pulling away from the guitar. I'll try again today to send a photo of it so you can see it. Actually, three views. If it comes through.

I do want to treat the symptoms and try to make it playable for as long as possible.

@Buc:
The guitar is a Kona Signature. I got it in...oh...2005, 2006, 2007. One of those years. From a pawn shop, so it wasn't new. Kona started in 2000 (according to the website) or 2001 (according to the label inside my guitar), so it can't be older than that. And I think I can see what you're talking about--the bridge rolling and pulling/pushing on the guitar top. Thanks for the info.

***************

Nope, still can't post any photos. When I attach a JPG, I get:

This site can’t be reached

www.songwriterforum.co.uk’s server DNS address could not be found.
Search Google for songwriter forum co uk index
ERR_NAME_NOT_RESOLVED

So...the pic is here.

[Skub]

The best way to upload photos Vicki, is to use an off site host such as photobucket. You can stick up loads of shots free,then use them on forums/email etc.

http://s51.photobucket.com/

Then you can post up pics when you are cutting a new nut or showing off!  

[CaliaMoko]

Okay, got it. Here's the photos:

[Buc McMaster]

Hard to tell much there.  The shots don't show enough of the top for perspective.....can't see any deflection.  This is not a truss rod problem.  It has nothing to do with a bellied top.  You have top issues, not neck issues.

[ShinyThang]

Quite understand how you want to keep this guitar playable for as long as possible but I think I'd take the luthier's recommendation and go shopping. What a fabulous excuse to go around trying out lots of 12-strings and then actually buying one in the knowledge that it had to be done. And they don't have to be expensive. A couple of years ago I found a 12-string in a shop in Cheltenham (bit of a trip for you) which was made by someone I've never heard of but was a joy to play and nothing like the thing I had as a kid that had what felt like 1/4" action and shredded my fingers and made me sound nothing like David Bowie. No, this one played almost like a 6-string and I have no idea why, at only £150 ($200) I left it in the shop. Oh! I remember ... the then "Mrs Shiny" would have disapproved. I should go back to that shop!

[Boydie]

This is not a truss rod problem.  It has nothing to do with a bellied top.  You have top issues, not neck issues.

Nobody is saying it is a neck issue

However, adjusting the neck MAY allow the strings to sit closer to the fret board, especially if done in conjunction with lowering the saddle as per a normal acoustic setup

Doing this MAY make the guitar more playable by addressing the "symptoms" but this will not address the "cause"

@CaliaMoko

I can't see anything drastically wrong and the saddle does look like it has already been lowered

The measurements you have taken also do not indicate anything drastically wrong with the action

Have you played many other 12 strings?

By their very nature they are a bit more difficult to play, especially cheaper models 

[CaliaMoko]

I appreciate all the input. This forum is great!

Since the last time I tightened the truss rod a few days ago, I've tuned and retuned the brand new strings and it's working pretty well at the moment. When I check with the tuner, I can see that the strings do go sharp when fretted, but only a little. I don't hear it with my ears. It may help that I got smart and tune it with the capo on instead of off; I tune a step low and play with capo on 2nd fret.

This 12-string actually has pretty comfortable action. When I bought it (about 10 years ago) I was just shopping quickly for a guitar--I was on my way to a music workshop and decided at the last minute I wanted to take a guitar with me. I hadn't had a guitar for several years, at that point. So I went to a pawn shop and tried a bunch of guitars. This one looked new, sounded nice, and was easy on the fingers (important, since I hadn't been playing for awhile), so I bought it. It cost $180 (£135) plus tax.

I have recently learned it must actually have been new, because it was built in 2005. And I can find new ones of the same model now for anywhere from $180 (what I paid) to maybe $350, depending on where I look. So I should have offered less...oh well. I learned my lesson. A month or so ago I bought an electric guitar at the same shop. It was priced at $130. I said my budget was $100 max. The guy said, "Okay." And I paid $100 including tax. That was too easy. Did I offer too much?

Anyway, I think I'm good for now, so thanks again!

Vicki