I think the biggest mistake new songwriters make is ...

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Helena4

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« Reply #30 on: August 16, 2016, 11:59:47 AM »
To copy delb0y:

My songs are mostly one idea but they develop the point. I don't think I repeat myself too much. Unless I'm repeating exactly. I think the bigger point here is to provide development, not have more than one subject.

I do think somewhat about the listener. There are songs I've made that I can sit there and sing to myself but they're just boring. I generally want my songs to be pretty lively even if they're depressing (a great fault of mine is being unable to write anything happy haha). But I am really writing for myself.

I cannot get my hand out of my mouth. When I write a chord progression for a song I just can't seem to get myself to do something that doesn't follow the vocal line in all ways. And I don't want that! As I said, I want my songs to actually sound interesting and lively and layered.

I listen to EVERYTHING. Generally I will listen to BBC Radio 1 mindlessly in the morning. I listen to older stuff... I must confess I rarely go back further than 1970s. With punk and early post punk and the begginings of electronica (Kraftwerk woopwoop!) it's just more interesting. I do skip all the way back to classical though. The modern current stuff I listen to is a bit confined though, it's mostly dance stuff because I like to dance to it aaaand, some (not all) of it is quite interesting, more so than I dunno, Ed Sheeran and his undersized guitar. I also listen to a lot of more alternative modern stuff, but I was talking about proper popular music there. With modern popular music, I listen to dance stuff.

I am very very guilty of not finishing songs, because as I said earlier I cannot get my hand out of my mouth so I am never happy with anything. Like I finish my lyrics, but that's it.

I also ryhme a lot but I try not to make it chliche. And I don't force it either, I just see where it goes.

I never promote anything.

I can get a bit enamoured with my songs I must say.

I mean... I do try and be orignal... I'm not too bothered but I really do try. I reject most songs that I try to escape the predictable storytelling singer songwriter vibe... usually by being a bit more dancey or dramatic. I generlaly try to add depth but seem sort of superficially catchy in a slightly unnerving way, which stops my songs from being too predictable I think. I really cannot see how trying to implement some originality would be a msitake.

I have definitely settled in the past. I think it's important for begginners to settle somewhat. They need to get stuff down and build up a flow. I try not to settle these days - I've gotten much more picky.

Overconfidence. I can be a bit on some levels, not on others.

No I don't take others opinion as gospel. I know a lot of people won't like my vibe. On here I think people get it, but some people have made some suggestions of me changing some things that on reflection I just don't want to change.

I mean, what do you mean by great songwriters? I don't listen to Bob Dylan, Johnny Cash, Simon and Garfunkel I dunno, those sort of guys that people say are great songwriters. I just don't care for the vibe. Maybe I'll try again. But I dunno, that is so removed from me. I am not an American man from the 60s - and I don't mean that literally I just mean I have nothing in common with that, and I should not write like that. I am British, prone to bouts of depression and not at all wealthy or glamourous - Ian Curtis, I feel ya. I am British, queer, very much able to laugh at sadness and just the stupidity of life, and caring about people being able to dance to my songs (as in The Smiths... not his later stuff I can't dance to that) - Morrisey, I love ya. I am a girl of the modern age, not really taking much meaning in being a girl, fed up of the shallow pleasures of current life, yearning for love - Jehnny Beth, you understand. I am just a bit of an anarchist - punks unite! I could go on. But yeah, I find it difficult to listen to old "great songwriters". I do listen to music of lyrical value, but not them. I am always trying to expand though so maybe at some point I'll get there.


Now what would I say is a big beginner mistake?

1. Not writing enough. As I said, I don't care if you settle a bit in the begginning, just keep churning them out and keep trying.

2. Not tapping into your emotions and/or using your experiences fully. I dunno, I used to just come up with lines and run with them. The song may have ended up catchy but it wouldn't be about anything all that personal. And yeah, even if your writing some fantastic story song I think it should tie into yourself. Otherwise how ar eyou supposed to perform it? And how do you expect anyone to connect if you don't? I was always holding back if and when I tried to do this, you have to pour yourself out on the paper, otherwise you'd be better off writing that song that's entirely removed from your emotions, because this ones just gonna be cliche and shallow.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2016, 07:47:48 PM by Helena4 »
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stretch

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« Reply #31 on: August 29, 2016, 11:32:50 AM »
... not understanding enough about technique/theory, or if they do, not understanding its importance in songwriting.

Many of the great/est songs weren't so much written, they were constructed, often very deliberately.

tone

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« Reply #32 on: August 29, 2016, 10:47:57 PM »
... not understanding enough about technique/theory, or if they do, not understanding its importance in songwriting.

Many of the great/est songs weren't so much written, they were constructed, often very deliberately.

This is an interesting point of view. It strikes me that you're talking about the Cole Porter/ Irving Berlin era of songwriting? In which case I'd be inclined to agree with you, but also, great is something of a subjective judgement. I mean Yesterday by Paul McCartney is arguably a great song, but was it 'constructed'? I think he composed the music in a dream, and only really had to sweat to write the words...
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Helena4

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« Reply #33 on: August 30, 2016, 10:54:15 AM »
... not understanding enough about technique/theory, or if they do, not understanding its importance in songwriting.

Many of the great/est songs weren't so much written, they were constructed, often very deliberately.

This is an interesting point of view. It strikes me that you're talking about the Cole Porter/ Irving Berlin era of songwriting? In which case I'd be inclined to agree with you, but also, great is something of a subjective judgement. I mean Yesterday by Paul McCartney is arguably a great song, but was it 'constructed'? I think he composed the music in a dream, and only really had to sweat to write the words...

I think there is relevance to this point. I definitely feel like my lack of understanding of music theory and limited technique in everything holds me back. It ought to haha, otherwise ever learning that stuff would be useless.

In terms of songs being constructed... I think it is absolutely definitely worth putting your ideas through a wringer and trying to create a higher version. I've had lyric ideas that I could sing nicely along to a chord progression that I like, but if I think about them... I feel like the emotion deserves a more dramatic stand out depiction than regular old strummy guitar. So I've reworked the whole thing - lyric and music to construct a full picture. And I've had things that I liked singing along to chord progressions but I felt the atmosphere of the guitar part needed to be better served by my vocal melody and lyrics so I've painstakingly contructed more weaving lines that hug the progression. These things are all worth doing. I must say though none of this involved using music theory much more than knowing what notes certain things are and wondering how I should match/contrast the vocal/guitar/whatever with that. I just imagine it could be easier if I did know what I was doing haha.
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Sing4me88

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« Reply #34 on: September 03, 2016, 07:12:20 PM »
I think another mistake new songwriters make is adopting a superiority complex or, conversely, an inferiority complex. Basically reading/listening to lyrics and songs and thinking 'I'm better than them' or 'they are better than me'. Music is hugely subjective so the issue of being 'better' is perhaps the wrong approach to take - it's amatter of being 'different'. I read a lot of the lyrics on here and listen to a lot of the songs. I don't think I'm better than of the the other forumites but I don't think any of them are necessarily better than me.Granted a lot have more developed skill sets and write in different styles and there's some peoples songs/music/style I connect with more than others but that's probably a personal taste thing. Likewise, there's songs I hear and I really like but don't see as commercial while there's songs I hear and see as commercial but don't necessarily like them. I think failing to keep this perspective in the mindset is a mistake new songwriters make.

hardtwistmusic

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« Reply #35 on: October 01, 2016, 09:40:31 AM »
I think another mistake new songwriters make is adopting a superiority complex or, conversely, an inferiority complex. Basically reading/listening to lyrics and songs and thinking 'I'm better than them' or 'they are better than me'. Music is hugely subjective so the issue of being 'better' is perhaps the wrong approach to take - it's amatter of being 'different'. I read a lot of the lyrics on here and listen to a lot of the songs. I don't think I'm better than of the the other forumites but I don't think any of them are necessarily better than me.Granted a lot have more developed skill sets and write in different styles and there's some peoples songs/music/style I connect with more than others but that's probably a personal taste thing. Likewise, there's songs I hear and I really like but don't see as commercial while there's songs I hear and see as commercial but don't necessarily like them. I think failing to keep this perspective in the mindset is a mistake new songwriters make.

Now an interesting aspect of what you just said is that the pyschology of "comparing" (yourself to others) means that the person comparing ALWAYS compares from a point of weakness/inferiority.  

The obviously accomplished person does NOT compare himself to unaccomplished other people.  There is no need to.  His genuine (earned) confidence in his own level of accomplishment means he need not compare himself to others who obviously cannot compete with him/her.  

It is not until the person being viewed is frighteningly close to being good enough to challenge us that we play the "I'm better than him/her/it" card.  And we always do it out of the fear that it isn't true.  If we aren't afraid someone IS better than we are, we need not make the comparison.  

But when we (or he/she/they) DO make the comparison, the fact that the comparison is driven by fear means that (in his/her own mind) the comparer WILL lose the comparison and feel even more inferior.  

It's an interesting psychological human quirk.  And you pointed it out perfectly in your post.

AND. . . btw. . . we "old songwriters" make all the same mistakes attributed to "new songwriters" in this post too. 
« Last Edit: October 01, 2016, 09:43:05 AM by hardtwistmusic »
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Tracey Cracknell

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« Reply #36 on: November 20, 2016, 05:34:35 PM »
I don't know really, as I am only one songwriter amongst many and I only have my own perspective. Maybe the biggest mistake could be not allowing themselves to make any mistakes ?
Re Adam Harkus's point of putting the listener first, after a lifetime of putting everyone else first (no, not poor me, fact) I've decided to put myself on an equal footing, so I agree that the listener is important, but the singer/songwriter is equally important.

Tracey Cracknell

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« Reply #37 on: November 20, 2016, 05:36:00 PM »
And maybe trying too hard ?

diademgrove

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« Reply #38 on: November 23, 2016, 09:47:37 PM »
They steal too much or else they don't steal enough.

Martinswede

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« Reply #39 on: January 22, 2017, 07:48:06 PM »
Hi!

It took some time to read through this thread. I guess cause it was interesting.
It's nice to see such devotion to the subject.

We all make mistakes. But some are easier to avoid if you have some experience.
The road is full of obstacles. Each time you walk it. But with experience you are
better prepared and the obstacles are easier to avoid or overcome.

Everyone has their own difficulties when it comes to songwriting. Beginner or not.
If this is true (in short), not knowing about ways of overcoming what gives you trouble is
the biggest mistake. So what can these obstacles be?

Well the first you should not be scared to writing songs and then
discarding them if they don't meet your standards. Re-writing is always an option but as a beginner
discarding and starting something new is also a psychological exercise. You should learn not to 'kill your darlings' but to understand that writing a good, yes good not amazing, song is not a once in a lifetime experience. How many of your favorite artists are one-hit-wonders? Well surely not Joni Mitchell.

No one should be stuck in the past if they want to go forward. So the second mistake must be, as a beginner, not to think you can write a better song then the one about well anything. For every say five songs you write you will become a better songwriter. And guess what? Unless you live in a bubble you will every day be bombarded by impressions. Stuff to write about.

I see writing as a way of keeping sane. Some gossip, I write. I can't stop, just like I cant stop eating.
I've got a notebook full of five or six lines of music and nothing more. Discarded. You can write about what ever you want but if it can not turn it into something unless a miracle happens. )Well some still got the hope). I just turn the page and start anew. If you want to do something. Do it. If you want to do it good. Do it again.

Thanks for a great thread,
- Martin


tone

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« Reply #40 on: January 22, 2017, 09:14:13 PM »
Everyone has their own difficulties when it comes to songwriting. Beginner or not.
If this is true (in short), not knowing about ways of overcoming what gives you trouble is
the biggest mistake.
Amen to that - you stripped it down to the wire. Excellent reply - the whole thing, not just the part I quoted.
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CaliaMoko

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« Reply #41 on: January 22, 2017, 10:28:19 PM »
Don't know why I didn't think of this before, but I think my biggest mistake has been in assuming I've run out of ideas. Or will have, once I finish the song I'm on.

A few years ago, I had written several songs, but only one or two I actually liked. The rest just embarrassed me. Then I wrote another one I liked. Then I took a songwriting course and wrote two or three more I liked. And now I've joined this forum and written a few more I like.

Each time I write one I like, I'm thinking I will never be able to come up with another one as good. I've reached a point where I know the more I write, the better I will be, but I still have that negative mindset buried in my subconscious somewhere, always trying to sabotage me.

11

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« Reply #42 on: January 23, 2017, 09:35:22 AM »
Not finishing the songs...

I have loads i have to go back too...
& finish!!!.

But hey the prob i have, is when doing a song wham!!!
Another pops in to my scull :/
So then i record the Melody then write the lyrics

My problem is when i start getting melodys in my head
i have to hum them to my phone so that i dont lose the melody
I seen myself many a night wake up with music going through my head..,
Hum it to the phone then back to sleep, then if i get time go back to the melody
& get it on guitar etc.. then start writing... but as i say its finishing what is started..
Is my plight... its just getting time to work on each one :/
« Last Edit: January 23, 2017, 10:05:16 AM by 11 »
Melody 1st...
Lyrics Will Come After ;)

mikek

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« Reply #43 on: January 27, 2017, 07:32:48 PM »
Apart from the obvious of not using the fab resources and talents of this forum for me its Not Finishing song. 
Starting is hard, but finishing harder. Complete it and move on the the next. Like Arnold Parlmer's thing the more you do the better you'll get, so dont get stick.
 :)
Neil


this is mine as well.  i was going to post it up but read on and found someone else with my same bad habit.  i have a number of potentially good songs that i have put on the back burner expecting to have the lyrics fall from the heavens some day.

mikek

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« Reply #44 on: January 27, 2017, 09:39:11 PM »
something else occurs to me.  i don't recall reading it so apologies if i overlooked.

I notice quite frequently that new lyricists gravitate toward trite, overused metaphors and phrases.  we are probably all guilty of it from time to time, but a song riddled with recycled words and phrases really turns me off... as a consumer of lyrical content, little bothers me more.

great songwriters are rarely or never trite.  i'm inspired by those whom i consider to be superb lyricists; Jeff Tweedy, Elvis Costello, Lucinda Williams.  I strive for their greatness, and though i'm certain that i fall short, i feel that measuring my work against theirs is the surest way to eventually find quality.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2017, 09:44:52 PM by mikek »