[S.T.C]

Update on the Petition now at 23.14 ... 2,570,560

[tone]

No they don't - the strongest emerging  identity is 'Northern Irish' rather than Irish or British.... in fact the staunchest loyalist elements are loyal to 'God and Ulster' first rather than 'Queen and country'. Some actually advocate the spine shivering notion of an independent Northern Ireland state.Plus the Tory party or indeed the Labour party has NO mandate whatsoever in the North of Ireland - how is that democracy when people making the most major decisions aren't even answerable to the electorate?

That's interesting - but 'emerging' ain't the same as established. I'd like to know more though, can you share any sources?

[Sing4me88]

That's interesting - but 'emerging' ain't the same as established. I'd like to know more though, can you share any sources?

Their allegiance to Britain and rejection of Irish identity is that strong that there has been an upsurge in attempts to get Irish passports in the North in recent weeks..

The whole emergence of a 'Northern Irish'identity has been discussed extensively in academic literature on the matter.Somewhat paradoxically the post-Good Friday Agreement Catholic 'money class'enriched by the peace process have really bought into this. Jon Tonge has a fascinating article in the academic journal Irish Political Studies 2015 (Vol 32 (1) I think) on the matter.

Here's a pie chart based on 2011 census but the NILT survey has a more up to date reflection on it:

http://www.ark.ac.uk/nilt/2015/Political_Attitudes/IRBRIT.html

A Belfast Telegraph article on the matter - albeit this does point out that 'Northern Irish'identity has fallen to 22% from a record high of 295 in tandem with Irish identity rising:

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/columnists/northern-ireland-remains-sharply-divided-over-national-identity-but-with-no-strong-desire-for-irish-unity-29332675.html

[tone]

As I said, 'emerging' isn't the same as established. The telegraph article says 63% want to remain in Britain. Brexit is happening now, not in 5-10 years.

[Sing4me88]

Perhaps, but then again the Belfast Telegraph is an establishment paper and has consistently championed the status quo and the pro-Unionist line so of course they'll put a particular spin on the figures to support that. In any event, the NILT is only a survey not an actual vote so there's methodological issues in terms of what questions were asked, how they were asked and more importantly who were asked them. These surveys often inflate moderate opinion by excluding the views of certain 'problem' constituencies and focusing on affluent areas - police confidence surveys are notorious for this. Also it didn't canvass the opinion of the people of the WHOLE island of Ireland. Perhaps most importantly though a survey/poll is not necessarily a sound indication of popular opinion or how people will actually vote -people are less likely to advocate or express support for what seem like radical positions against the status quo when asked in public or surveys but more likely to vote in favour of radical policies/positions in the secrecy of a vote. Weren't we told by polls of various hues throughout the EU Ref that Remain were comfortably ahead? Then we were told Brexit were slightly in front then we were told Remain were back in front again? A growing body of sound academic literature - not infallible by any means but certainly MORE reliable than the Belfast Telegraph - has pointed to the prevalence of the Northern Irish identity over the traditional competing identities while economists have pointed out the growing benefits of unification.

In any event, IMHO 'British' identity is a simple misnomer for English nationalism. I've encountered many Irish/Northern Irish, Scottish and English (some Welsh but much less) folk and the only ones that identify or use the 'British'identity card are the English. Britain isn't even a country - it's an archaic union of 3 countries and a statelet. Union and occupation are Dickensian concepts and it is modernity more so than anything else that is tearing the so called Union apart at the seams. The facade of devolution aside, why should people in Belfast be ruled over by people the other side of the Irish Sea? Why should someone in Glasgow have their life dictated by someone in Whitehall?

[tone]

In any event, IMHO 'British' identity is a simple misnomer for English nationalism. I've encountered many Irish/Northern Irish, Scottish and English (some Welsh but much less) folk and the only ones that identify or use the 'British'identity card are the English. Britain isn't even a country - it's an archaic union of 3 countries and a statelet. Union and occupation are Dickensian concepts and it is modernity more so than anything else that is tearing the so called Union apart at the seams. The facade of devolution aside, why should people in Belfast be ruled over by people the other side of the Irish Sea? Why should someone in Glasgow have their life dictated by someone in Whitehall?

Yes, yes, and yes. I like my country, but I'm not a flag-waving nationalist, and I think politics works best when it's decentralised. So long as we can retain peaceful existence with our neighbours I would welcome the independence of Scotland, Wales or NI should they wish to depart the union. I'd even be tempted to move to Scotland if they declared independence, and get away from these monsters in Downing Street

[Sing4me88]

Alas I think you'll have to live in perpetual hope! The only thing that has resulted from the EU Ref is growing or renewed division on every level - in Scotland, North of Ireland and in the Tory and Labour party. The Blairites have somewhat cynically used it to try and shaft Corbyn it seems. Ironically though it seems the devolution arrangements in the Good Friday Agreement and for Scotland could be the best means of putting a handbrake on any actual Brexit.

The world could be an odd place come October with Boris and Trump at the helm. I imagine they'll look like a 1D reunion gig in about 50 years time minus the amount of copious of hairspray an screaming legions of female admirers.....

[Oldbutyet]

Is this the end of the UK as we know it.

England voted  53.4% to leave

Wales voted  52.5% to leave

Scotland voted  62% to remain

Northern Ireland voted  55.8% to remain

Gibraltar voted  95% to remain

The bad news is the possibility of the return of the border between the north and the rest of Ireland but hopefully that won't happen, in fact no one seem to know whats going to happen as there is now talk of a UK general election and then depending on who wins, a second referendum, news reports are also saying that some or maybe even many people who voted to leave where lie too and would vote to remain in a second referendum, what a total mess up this is but don't worry there is good news.

The UK will still be able to enter the eurovision song contest, now doesn't that make you all happy.

[shadowfax]

England managed absolutely fine before a Federal government with no mandate (nobody got to vote on whether we wanted the EU to be politicized) decided to tell everybody what to do..
I reckon we'll manage fine again..why the heck wouldn't we?
England has always been a country to reckon with and now it seems everyone is running scared..bit strange really..
people will travel to Europe..like they used to,
people will move to and live in Europe, like they did before Brussels..
I don't really get what all the fuss is about,
I'm thinking it's nice that the government that we elect will now run our country, (badly of course) but it's better than faceless bureaucrats in Brussels running our country badly..
I actually voted to stay in but now I'm starting to wonder why I did that..
England does not need running from Brussels..
remember the fishing industry?
I think Brussels trying to force quotas of immigrants on countries may have been the last straw and they certainly did not have a mandate to do that..

and what about the huge corruption in Brussels..100's of millions disappear every year...
whistle blowers get removed very quickly..


we'll be fine...

[Jamie]

I voted to remain. The reasons a are many, but this is not an exhaustive list.

We have free access to a market of 500m
They are our nearest neighbours and have similar security issues as us eg terrorism, and Putin
We are not in the euro and never will be
We have a seat at the table where major decisions about Europe will be made
The World is made up of blocks of power and moving out of the EU makes us a smaller player in a World that's not getting any safer
The growth of our economy and our skills base will need immigration now and in the future
There is as much immigration from outside the EU as from inside.

I couldn't and still can't understand why so many voted out without knowing what they were going to get! There is no plan and that is so evident.
As predicted in project fear the pound has taken an hammering, the banks which are owned by the taxpayers have lost £6bn, cost of imports will increase by around 10% based on current exchange rates. There will be two years of instability costing us all. Xenophobia that drove many peoples decision to leave will cause more problems as some will feel their views about immigrants is validated. There are now many reports of immigrants being told to pack and go home, it's tragic.
There is a vacuum of leadership due to the out vote and now the Labour Party are in disarray. You couldn't make it up.

I note that some of the exit brigade are now backing off their immigration claims and the £350m for the NHS.

I despair.

I am sure that the vast majority who voted for exit will not get what they wanted.
Just sayin'

[Viscount Cramer & His Orchestra]

No, they may not get what they wanted.

I'm never very good at reading the small print, but from what I can gather, before article 50 can be invoked there has to be a bill passed in Parliament to repeal some 1972 act.

So, it seems, the ultimate decision rests with our elected representatives and not necessarily according to this non-binding referendum. This makes sense to me. It does seem a bit unlikely that such a big decision about the UK's political and economic future could be left to a bunch of factory workers from Stoke (I worked 5 years in a factory...not slagging down factory workers, just trying to make a point).

The House is estimated to be about 75% in favour of Remain(ing). Anyway I'm pinning my hopes on this...maybe wrongly!

[Sing4me88]

England managed absolutely fine before a Federal government with no mandate (nobody got to vote on whether we wanted the EU to be politicized) decided to tell everybody what to do..
I reckon we'll manage fine again..why the heck wouldn't we?
England has always been a country to reckon with and now it seems everyone is running scared..bit strange really..
people will travel to Europe..like they used to,
people will move to and live in Europe, like they did before Brussels..
I don't really get what all the fuss is about,
I'm thinking it's nice that the government that we elect will now run our country, (badly of course) but it's better than faceless bureaucrats in Brussels running our country badly..
I actually voted to stay in but now I'm starting to wonder why I did that..
England does not need running from Brussels..
remember the fishing industry?
I think Brussels trying to force quotas of immigrants on countries may have been the last straw and they certainly did not have a mandate to do that..

and what about the huge corruption in Brussels..100's of millions disappear every year...
whistle blowers get removed very quickly..


we'll be fine...

Wasn't the EU Ref a 'British' vote about 'Britain' though - you never mention 'Britain' once but mention 'England' 3 times. Seems like an English nationalist position to me....

[Sing4me88]

It does seem a bit unlikely that such a big decision about the UK's political and economic future could be left to a bunch of factory workers from Stoke (I worked 5 years in a factory...not slagging down factory workers, just trying to make a point).

Is having factory workers from Stoke determine such matters collectively any less palatable than having self-interested Oxbridge graduates and old Etonians with no concept of the real life trials and tribulations of the common woman or man deciding them?

[Jamie]

Many people will have used their knowledge, Experience and understanding of how the world works to come to conclusions about the referendum. Many more will have looked to others to help them decide how they should vote. They were shockingly let down by the tone of the campaign. Many of the elements of the campaign pandered to the basest elements of emotions of ordinary people. Immigration unfortunately was at the forefront of this fear stoked by people who should know better. Be careful what you wish for.
The economy is critical for the future well being of this country and this instability will have devastating effects on our ability to afford the services we want and need.
Many people pour scorn on the bankers and I am happy to have been a critic of them, but, this decision is likely to mean that London will no longer be at the centre of world finance and that will have devastating effects on our economy. Frankfurt and New York will be rubbing their hands with glee at the decision we have made.Decisions about jobs and investments in the uk have already been put on hold and many companies who set up here will be re-evaluating their future plans. In my opinion this is a decision that has unforeseen consequences, who knows where this will take us.
As I said before the people who voted for this will not get what they thought they were voting for and unfortunately they will be the people who carry the burden of the decision.

[digger72]

What I find sad is that almost half the country now seem to want everything to go wrong just so they can say, "I told you so."
And they say the majority are selfish for imposing their will on them. Of course, they would be more than happy for the minority to impose their will on the majority because they are so wonderfully enlightened, and so obviously correct in everything they say and do.