How to write a song / how to compose

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Nekdo12

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« on: June 22, 2016, 02:40:39 PM »
Hi! This might be the most suitable forum for questions like this, but some of you might be able to help.

I'd really like to learn basics of music composition. I'm very interested in writing classical orchestral or piano music, but I have no idea where to start. I know that the best option would be finding a good tutor, but I'd rather learn by myself via internet.
At the moment, the wish to learn is basically all I have, apart from small theoretical background. I don't even know what skills are necessary for composing (which makes searching for articles online incredibly hard). I would very much appreciate if someone could give me some advice on where should I begin. Should I first improve my piano skills? Should I improve my ear? Should I find myself a book? Should I start with an online course? How much money should I spend (I presume it's hard to get good quality content for free)? Should I use multiple sources? If anyone has experience with books or online courses that suit my level of expertise, I would be grateful if you could share it.

My current knowledge and skills: I can recognise and use major scale, melodic and harmonic minor scales, as well as a few modes of major scales (I have some experience with jazz improvisation). I have no problems with constructing and recognising intervals and some basic chords with inversions (minor, major, augmented and diminished, a few types of seventh chords). I have pretty developed ear. I'm quite good at playing saxophone and I also have some experience with piano (which is convenient I guess ...).

I would be very grateful for any piece of advise :)

tone

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« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2016, 04:08:00 PM »
Yo Neckdo!

Hello and welcome to the forum!

You're speaking to someone who shares your ambitions to become a better composer and to learn orchestral techniques. I've done a lot of reading on this and even had a teacher for a while (although my lessons stopped when I moved from the area, with no suitable replacement locally) but self-learning again now.

Composition and orchestration are two separate skills really, although depending on your goals, they have a significant degree of overlap. Some film composers orchestrate all their work themselves, some have orchestrators and arrangers who help them.

As far as learning composition goes, I'd say score reading seems to be the most important thing. Get some study scores, and read them as you listen to the works. You'll be able to see not only how the melodic and harmonic structure works, but how the orchestration delivers the composition to the listener. I'd say developing your improvisation skills is another productive use of your time, but also learning other composers' work on your instrument of choice (although I'd say piano here because it deals with melody, harmony and rhythm all together).

Orchestration wise I'd recommend Walter Piston's book 'Orchestration' and check out orchestrationonline.com - there's loads of good resources there including a youtube channel and a free course (which has just begun - although it looks like it might be a thinly veiled marketing device to sell subscriptions to his paid resources...)

The best way to learn has to be finding a good teacher though, so if funds permit, I'd say do that first, and let someone with the skills and experience you desire guide you.

Hope some of that helps, and Good luck! :)
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Boydie

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« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2016, 04:14:12 PM »
That is really useful info

You seem to have most of the "pieces" so perhaps you just need some help putting all those bits of theory together in the right order to create a piece

It would be helpful to know a bit more about the types of music you want to write - perhaps you could post some links to the types of music you would like to be able to write
To check out my music please visit:

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Nekdo12

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« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2016, 10:10:00 PM »
Yo Neckdo!

Hello and welcome to the forum!

You're speaking to someone who shares your ambitions to become a better composer and to learn orchestral techniques. I've done a lot of reading on this and even had a teacher for a while (although my lessons stopped when I moved from the area, with no suitable replacement locally) but self-learning again now.

Composition and orchestration are two separate skills really, although depending on your goals, they have a significant degree of overlap. Some film composers orchestrate all their work themselves, some have orchestrators and arrangers who help them.

As far as learning composition goes, I'd say score reading seems to be the most important thing. Get some study scores, and read them as you listen to the works. You'll be able to see not only how the melodic and harmonic structure works, but how the orchestration delivers the composition to the listener. I'd say developing your improvisation skills is another productive use of your time, but also learning other composers' work on your instrument of choice (although I'd say piano here because it deals with melody, harmony and rhythm all together).

Orchestration wise I'd recommend Walter Piston's book 'Orchestration' and check out orchestrationonline.com - there's loads of good resources there including a youtube channel and a free course (which has just begun - although it looks like it might be a thinly veiled marketing device to sell subscriptions to his paid resources...)

The best way to learn has to be finding a good teacher though, so if funds permit, I'd say do that first, and let someone with the skills and experience you desire guide you.

Hope some of that helps, and Good luck! :)

Hi Tone!
Thanks alot for your answer. I'm now significantly less confused than I was before (I've bumped into the term "orchestration" a few times already, but I've always ignored it. I guess I thought that was some kind of expert level composing skill that would be out of my reach for years... Well I might have been right and have just misinterpeted your comment).
So I guess I should start paying more attention to orchestration, especially if I want to write orchestral music. But I'm still not sure if I should dive into it straight away. Should I rather spend some time studying music composition only? Considering I'm complete newbie, I'm affraid of skipping steps.
Anyway. Thanks again for your advice. It will definitely help me a lot :D

Nekdo12

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« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2016, 10:12:02 PM »
That is really useful info

You seem to have most of the "pieces" so perhaps you just need some help putting all those bits of theory together in the right order to create a piece

It would be helpful to know a bit more about the types of music you want to write - perhaps you could post some links to the types of music you would like to be able to write

Hi Boydie!
Thanks alot for your reply. It's very encouraging to hear that I have some material to make music (I thought and pretty much still think that my current knowledge doesn't help me at all. Everything I've tried to composed so far, turned out to be terrible.).
I think that my biggest problem is having no idea where I am or what to do with seemingly usless knowledge that only came handy when writing music test at school.

I'm still pretty much lost. Everytime I try to find a course to begin with, I end up either with course for complete beginners that don't even know how to read sheet music, or with course that concentrates on one specific subject or technique and is far too much in-depth (and I usually get cunfused as soon as I read the name of the course).

It would be very helpful if someone could give me at least few guidelines (names of "subjects" like "counterpoint" or something...) on what I should learn first. I guess that finding a tutor would be the best idea...

Anyway. About music type, I'd like to learn: I'm interested mostly in "epic" music (i'm not sure if that's the proper name of the genre). I'll put some links:





I know I'm aiming too high but still... I must have sometnig to strive for.

Thanks again for your answer :D

Boydie

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« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2016, 10:50:34 PM »
My suggestion (and also covered by TONE) would be to pick one of your favourite songs and just analyse it and find out what makes it tick

I am not talking about identifying the harmony, chords, scales etc. - just listen with a pen a paper and make notes/observations on the following:

Most "songs" are written to a defined structure (eg verse, chorus, verse, chorus, bridge, chorus)

Even the most complex orchestral/film score type music can usually be broken down in to sections (eg A section, B section)

The key to making most music engage and become memorable with listeners is repetition

The key to making most music engage and become memorable with listeners is repetition (  ;) )

So when you analyse your favourite pieces I think you will be able to identify repeating sections or motifs

When you listen to your piece notice how (and when) the main motif (melodic hook) is introduced, notice how it is usually built upon in each following section, note how it is subtly varied to maintain interest, note how the music completely changes feel before returning to the main motif

This is a very big generalisation without listening to your reference tracks but I think it is a safe bet that a similar structure has been followed (it is used in pop music, classical, orchestral, film scores, jingles etc. etc.!)

I would therefore suggest that you start at the very beginning and just focus on developing a simple chords sequence and a catchy melodic motif (hook)

Although focused on "proper songs" this podcast and the notes in the forum post might help you consolidate your theory knowledge before embarking on your journey

The theory (and techniques) translate to instrumental music

http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=9447.0

Once you have your "foundation" (a simple chord sequence and a memorable, interesting and catchy melody) you can then learn the different techniques to embellish and expand this core idea into a full score - but IMHO you need this in place first so you have something to build your "orchestration" around

The best pieces have an orchestration that SUPPORTS and reinforces the core concept - eg if you come up with a happy, major key, jaunty melody it will guide you as to how to build the orchestration (faster tempo, pizzicato strings, light percussion, bassoons [they just sound "funny"!], tubas, bells, chimes, plinky plonky piano)

If you come up with a "menacing" minor key melody then you may want to look at a slower tempo, cellos, hard hit lower register piano, big crashy drums, legato strings, that screechy/slide string sounds, timpani, etc. etc.

IMHO the main melody is ALWAYS the most important part of any song so starting with this and buildimg from it will always be a good place to start as everything that follows can then support this key part

« Last Edit: June 23, 2016, 07:50:42 AM by Boydie »
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tboswell

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« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2016, 09:21:58 AM »
I spent several years trying to do something similar and I can share what I explored.

I went to a night school class (at Birkbeck in London) to study composition and learned huge amounts that way. An understanding of harmony is fundamental and the standard text to get started with it Anna Butterworth's "Harmony in Practice". This is packed with examples and easy to follow and will teach you the basics of harmony you need to understand orchestral arrangement.
The other book I really like is this one, which you can get here: https://monoskop.org/images/d/da/Schoenberg_Arnold_Fundamentals_of_Musical_Composition_no_OCR.pdf
Schoenberg builds up slowly from tiny motifs into large structures using many examples. Teaches you how you can build large pieces from small bits of musical material.


To learn the orchestration itself I would suggest several ways:
1. Listen to the orchestral music you like and really understand how it works. Ideally do this reading the score at the same time. This is where http://imslp.org/ comes in handy or you'll end up with endless scores dotted around your home like me  :D
2. Play around with an orchestral simulator. I used to play with Garritan Personal Orchestra to try things out.
3. Play in and orchestra yourself. To arrange for an orchestra you need to understand the instruments and what they can do. No better way than from the inside. I took up the Viola for this reason alone. If you want your music played by real musicians at any point you need this stuff sorted. They hate it when you give them an unplayable passage that is fine for piano but wouldn't work on their instrument.

Books are OK for orchestration and the Piston is a standard text but you won't make sense of it without  understanding the harmony and knowing the repertoire.

Good luck with it!  :)

Tom.

Nekdo12

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« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2016, 12:11:01 PM »
My suggestion (and also covered by TONE) would be to pick one of your favourite songs and just analyse it and find out what makes it tick

I am not talking about identifying the harmony, chords, scales etc. - just listen with a pen a paper and make notes/observations on the following:

Most "songs" are written to a defined structure (eg verse, chorus, verse, chorus, bridge, chorus)

Even the most complex orchestral/film score type music can usually be broken down in to sections (eg A section, B section)

The key to making most music engage and become memorable with listeners is repetition

The key to making most music engage and become memorable with listeners is repetition (  ;) )

So when you analyse your favourite pieces I think you will be able to identify repeating sections or motifs

When you listen to your piece notice how (and when) the main motif (melodic hook) is introduced, notice how it is usually built upon in each following section, note how it is subtly varied to maintain interest, note how the music completely changes feel before returning to the main motif

This is a very big generalisation without listening to your reference tracks but I think it is a safe bet that a similar structure has been followed (it is used in pop music, classical, orchestral, film scores, jingles etc. etc.!)

I would therefore suggest that you start at the very beginning and just focus on developing a simple chords sequence and a catchy melodic motif (hook)

Although focused on "proper songs" this podcast and the notes in the forum post might help you consolidate your theory knowledge before embarking on your journey

The theory (and techniques) translate to instrumental music

http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=9447.0

Once you have your "foundation" (a simple chord sequence and a memorable, interesting and catchy melody) you can then learn the different techniques to embellish and expand this core idea into a full score - but IMHO you need this in place first so you have something to build your "orchestration" around

The best pieces have an orchestration that SUPPORTS and reinforces the core concept - eg if you come up with a happy, major key, jaunty melody it will guide you as to how to build the orchestration (faster tempo, pizzicato strings, light percussion, bassoons [they just sound "funny"!], tubas, bells, chimes, plinky plonky piano)

If you come up with a "menacing" minor key melody then you may want to look at a slower tempo, cellos, hard hit lower register piano, big crashy drums, legato strings, that screechy/slide string sounds, timpani, etc. etc.

IMHO the main melody is ALWAYS the most important part of any song so starting with this and buildimg from it will always be a good place to start as everything that follows can then support this key part


Thanks a lot for these advice :) . Now I finally have something to begin with.

I guess I have received most of my knowledge about structure of songs by listening to them ( I listen to music quite a lot). But my knowledge is at the moment very poor because I only learnt subconsciously. Deliberate listening to structure and techniques used by composers will probably have huge impact on my future creativity.

And your posts about chord theory are extremely useful as well. So thank you very much for taking your time and sharing those tips :D

Nekdo12

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« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2016, 12:11:57 PM »
I spent several years trying to do something similar and I can share what I explored.

I went to a night school class (at Birkbeck in London) to study composition and learned huge amounts that way. An understanding of harmony is fundamental and the standard text to get started with it Anna Butterworth's "Harmony in Practice". This is packed with examples and easy to follow and will teach you the basics of harmony you need to understand orchestral arrangement.
The other book I really like is this one, which you can get here: https://monoskop.org/images/d/da/Schoenberg_Arnold_Fundamentals_of_Musical_Composition_no_OCR.pdf
Schoenberg builds up slowly from tiny motifs into large structures using many examples. Teaches you how you can build large pieces from small bits of musical material.


To learn the orchestration itself I would suggest several ways:
1. Listen to the orchestral music you like and really understand how it works. Ideally do this reading the score at the same time. This is where http://imslp.org/ comes in handy or you'll end up with endless scores dotted around your home like me  :D
2. Play around with an orchestral simulator. I used to play with Garritan Personal Orchestra to try things out.
3. Play in and orchestra yourself. To arrange for an orchestra you need to understand the instruments and what they can do. No better way than from the inside. I took up the Viola for this reason alone. If you want your music played by real musicians at any point you need this stuff sorted. They hate it when you give them an unplayable passage that is fine for piano but wouldn't work on their instrument.

Books are OK for orchestration and the Piston is a standard text but you won't make sense of it without  understanding the harmony and knowing the repertoire.

Good luck with it!  :)

Tom.


Hi, Tom!
Thank you very much for sharing those tips and literature. I will definitely check both books and try to get the most from your advice.
 And I'll probably give Garritan Personal Orchestra a try... I've been looking for different virtual orchestras for quite some time but all of them either have terrible sound or are very expensive.
Thank you once again :D

tone

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« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2016, 12:23:16 PM »
Yes Garritan is pretty good - I've had some good results with Miroslav too, which wasn't actually that expensive.

I think the genre of music you're interested in is closest to film music. You should look into resources for composing, scoring and orchestrating film music, and I think you'll find more what you're looking for.

The good news is, much of this music isn't actually very complex harmonically. I suppose purists would call it cross-over, because it uses similar harmonic progressions to pop/ folk music, and even shares some structural elements.

The 'epicness' mainly comes from the arrangement/ orchestration. That's building the melody and theme, and using all those 'big' sounding devices like Japanese drums, stoccato strings (particularly cello), piano & string ostinato. Once you strip away all the textural changes, you'll notice that the music (the melody and harmony) don't actually develop a great deal. In other words, the same ideas get repeated, only in different 'clothes' eg, choir in one section, strings in another, brass in a third etc.

I made some tunes that could be considered film music. Take a listen if you fancy it https://soundcloud.com/anthony-lane/sets/from-the-first-floor and I'll be happy to help further if I can.
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Nekdo12

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« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2016, 06:45:29 PM »
Yes Garritan is pretty good - I've had some good results with Miroslav too, which wasn't actually that expensive.

I think the genre of music you're interested in is closest to film music. You should look into resources for composing, scoring and orchestrating film music, and I think you'll find more what you're looking for.

The good news is, much of this music isn't actually very complex harmonically. I suppose purists would call it cross-over, because it uses similar harmonic progressions to pop/ folk music, and even shares some structural elements.

The 'epicness' mainly comes from the arrangement/ orchestration. That's building the melody and theme, and using all those 'big' sounding devices like Japanese drums, stoccato strings (particularly cello), piano & string ostinato. Once you strip away all the textural changes, you'll notice that the music (the melody and harmony) don't actually develop a great deal. In other words, the same ideas get repeated, only in different 'clothes' eg, choir in one section, strings in another, brass in a third etc.

I made some tunes that could be considered film music. Take a listen if you fancy it https://soundcloud.com/anthony-lane/sets/from-the-first-floor and I'll be happy to help further if I can.

Film music indeed sounds pretty similar to music I'm trying to create, so maybe I really should start searching sources that are based on it. Looks like I've been looking for the wrong thing... I've always thought that "epic music" and "film music" or "program music" are really just branches of classical music with little to no essential difference...  and that I should master art of Bach and Beethoven before moving to Hanz Zimmer or Thomas Bergersen... (I guess you just spared me huge amount of work :) ... and thanks for defining what makes so called "epic music" so epic).

And now something about your masterpieces: I listened to all of them and I must say you couldn't give me better examples. That's exactly the kind of music I'd love to be able to write. There weren't any piano pieces among links I sent to Boydie but I just love music where piano (or violin) have solo with symphonic orchestra for background (I think I mentioned piano in original post). I really like your songs (Transparency, Artificial Light and Ludicity are my favourite) and since your already a professional on that area, it would be great if you could share some literature or courses (or some tips) specifically for film music (though I presume you have already shared all important tips and tricks).

And if you have some spare time... Would you mind checking an "experiment" that I made last year? It was more or less failed attempt of composing (now it seems even more terrible than it did last year) but you as an expert might be able to extract some informations about which areas of my composing skills are more terrible and which are less (I think that would provide valuable guidelines for the future). Of course if it won't take too much time (you've already helped me a lot.). Here's the link:



And if you could please tell me why it sounds so terrible. Is it the cheap sound library? Is it repetitive chord progression? Is it the lack of variations or modulations? All I know is, that it doesn't sound as it should.

Thank you very much for your reply and I'm sorry to keep bothering you.

tone

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« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2016, 07:08:29 PM »
No need to apologise - I did offer to help, and this is a bit of a pet subject of mine, although I would scarcely call myself a professional! You'll make me blush.

First of all, your piece doesn't sound terrible at all. The piano in particular is really nice and very realistic, so a very good starting point. I think the things letting it down are the drums and the strings.

Drums are really hard to get right in my opinion. I'm not a drummer, and while I sort of understand how drums work, I'm a novice in programming them. Having said that, your drums sound like they've been drawn onto a midi grid using the pencil tool for 1-2 bars and then copy/ pasted for however long you want that part to play. It doesn't sound realistic at all. At the bare minimum, I suggest playing your drums in by hand for the duration of each part - and then soft quantising them to the grid to retain the human feel. Remember to use a good combination of hard and soft/ softer hits as this is how human drummers play. Failing that, do what I did - use a combination of loops and programmed drums.

As for the strings, this really comes down to 2 things - creating idiomatic string parts and recreating the sound of real players. The first is long journey of learning that I've only just begin, but there are some brilliant resources out there to get you started. This should be a big help on its own


Also:



The second part is covered in those videos too - and that's realistic programming (or more accurately, convincing programming a.k.a PRODUCTION). For example, string parts are extremely dynamic, so learning to swell your phrases in the right places makes a massive difference. Also, good use of reverb is essential (I posted a thread about this in the resources forum http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=11358.0 )

So in addition to learning about orchestration (starting with what instruments play what notes, using which techniques (articulations) and in which combinations) you'll also want to start learning some production techniques. I recommend joining the virtual orchestration group on facebook and trawling youtube for tutorial videos (there are loads on there).

I'm really glad you liked my music. It's no less repetitive for the main part in terms of the chord progressions than yours - it's more that I've broken things up into more definable layers and sections with different textures and other elements that come and go.

Of course the best way to learn is by doing, so I encourage you to get started. Once you've filled your head with some of the more important information, you'll be amazed at the difference in your tracks. And don't forget to share them with us when you're done :)
« Last Edit: June 24, 2016, 01:20:49 PM by tone »
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Boydie

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« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2016, 07:11:55 PM »
I just had a quick listen and it is not terrible by any stretch of the imagination

There are a few things I think you could "tweak" to get closer to where you want to be but I really do not think you are as far away as you think

I could hear a clear "motif" but felt it got a little lost within the rest of the piano part - perhaps concentrate on establishing the main motif first

The piano and string sounds weren't too bad (IMHO) but I think there are some "tips & tricks" to make your existing sounds a little more realistic - although I am going to resist posting them yet as I think you should concentrate on the "writing" first and worry about "production" later

I felt the drums were the weakest part as they immediately took away the "epic" feel and sounded like someone bashing away in a small room

Some epic toms or timpani replacing the existing track would completely transform it - even if everything else remained the same

Quote
Thank you very much for your reply and I'm sorry to keep bothering you.

No need for apologies - this is a forum and we love discussing this kind of stuff
To check out my music please visit:

http://soundcloud.com/boydiemusic

Twitter: https://twitter.com/BoydieMusic

Nekdo12

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« Reply #13 on: June 24, 2016, 11:57:48 AM »
Thank you both for your opinion.

As I'm listening again, I'm starting to agree that drums (and strings) are the weakest part of my "experiment" (I've somehow figured that out on my own already... But I 've always blamed my sound library. I had no idea that the actual choice of drums or the way how you add them to MIDI grid have so much impact (yes, I did use pencil tool and copy / paste :P is it really that obvious?).
Anyway... I guess you uncovered me another huge area of expertise (I thought that music theory (harmony and melody) was everything I needed to learn... And then orchestration and production apperared. I think I'll lost count :P ).
And those links you posted will surely provide great help (btw I think you accidentally misplaced link of your forum thread with youtube link).

There's just one technical question that I'd like to ask. Do you know any music production software that has sufficient quality and is really cheap or free (I'm only beginning to learn and I don't know if I'll ever get into composing as much as I wish to... I really wouldn't like to spend a lot of money at the very beginning, just to find out that I'm hopeless at music composition). At the moment I use Linux Multimedia Studio which is not that bad, but it has some downsides. And same question for sound libraries as well (For symphonic orchestra I'll probably go with Garritan. It's cheap and has sufficient quality.But I still need to find a piano and maybe some percussion or solo violin). Just curious if you have some experience with it.

Thanks for your reply :)

tone

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« Reply #14 on: June 24, 2016, 01:24:28 PM »
Ooh well spotted. I corrected the link (it's http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=11358.0 by the way)

As for making music on linux, I say go for it! I think it will be a little more difficult and time consuming to find libraries, plugins etc that will work, whereas spending a little ££ on a well-known DAW will give you more of the tools you need and a gentler learning curve. But I'd like to see more linux based music making tools, so maybe you can probe that frontier and report back?

I think how you use your software is generally far more important than what software you use. Your ears and understanding of musical ideas are the main skills - software is just a tool for turning it into a wav file.

Maybe there are linux folks on here who can offer more experienced views? Also, there are bound to be linux music production chatrooms, slacks, forums, subreddits etc you can join, so I'd have a look there too.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2016, 01:26:20 PM by tone »
New EP: Straitjacket - Listen here

1st track from my upcoming album -- Click to listen -- Thanks!

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