[MartynRich]

But of course I want attention for my songs and of course I want everyone to say they're wonderful...the only thing is that's like your parents telling you you're great at ballet or football or whatever else when you aren't. It doesn't prepare you for reality.

I write songs because I have something to convey and I hope people like them for that. If they don't it's their choice. However, part of the learning process is taking on board those reasons and trying to improve. If you can't take criticism then you shouldn't really be posting. Send them to an A & R man to disappear into the ether.

[tone]

It takes courage to say what you really think about a song, and I think it should be encouraged and applauded.

Of course, everyone likes it when people say nice things about their songs - but after a while, if no-one says anything negative, you have to start asking 'can I trust this'? How am I going to improve if no-one tells me that part of my song isn't as good as the rest, or if the chorus doesn't connect? If my lyrics sound strange to the listener, you're doing me a favour by telling me, even if I decide to ignore you.

The thing is, I find it hard to say what I really think about songs too. We're probably all pretty attached to our writing, so having someone say they think it's derivative and unimaginative is pretty hurtful. But, depending on your attitude and ambition, it's an opportunity to improve.

Good to see this issue getting a proper discussion. I think a few changes along the lines of Boydie's suggestions would definitely encourage more detailed criticism (and maybe more honest criticism).

And I think this is the place to cultivate the right balance. It's a friendly and supportive community. We can still be both those things even if we think a song has lots of room for improvement.

[tina m]

I think if you keep adding different boards & subsections you will break up the community or what ever it is here ..it will be like a house with too many rooms where people never bump into one another …..ive been on forums like that & have had to leave

the thing about critcising  other peoples song is you quickly learn like that scientist with his dogs  that if you say something bad about someones song they will not be so kind when they review your song bcos thats human nature...often its a case of a sort of mutual agrreement that I am nice to you if you are nice to me
I would rather have a  review that was encouraging than critical ….maybe you learn more from the critical one but what I need is encouragement bcos its all a fantasy realy isnt it...imagining you are as good as the big boys & girls & having adulation & being somebody... if I lose that then I give up completely

[MartynRich]

Obviously the criticism has to be constructive to be worthwhile otherwise there isn't any point giving it. But you do have to encourage people to say what they feel a song needs otherwise no-one ever learns.

[MartynRich]

Boydie - I really like the Showcase idea but it's gonna be complicated working out how to get that right. Choosing songs could also turn out to be a nightmare. If it does go ahead maybe it would be better to do that through an external medium e.g. SoundCloud..?

[CaliaMoko]

Since I can't sleep, I'll provide my 2 cents' worth (I assume that saying is a little different across the pond...) to this discussion.

1. I'm glad to see the comment about all the activity in "Finished Songs", because I've been wondering about that. It often seemed to me many of those songs should be in "WIP". I seldom post in the "Finished" forum, because I figured a song isn't finished until it's at least mixed. I thought that forum was for feedback on the mix and production. And to reassure those who post there because it gets the most action...I almost always post my songs in "WIP", and I do get ample feedback there.

2. I really like the requirement to include the lyrics when feedback on the lyrics is desired by the songwriter. Otherwise, I suppose it doesn't matter so much, although I think I would still prefer to have them available. Having the lyrics already printed makes it easy to copy and paste the parts I'm providing feedback on. If we do get a "showcase" forum, I could see not requiring lyrics there.

3. My suggestion for cases in which the reviewer can't find anything good at all to say about a song is this: Don't give it any feedback. Just like your mama told you (if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all).

4. Since well-meant humor can be difficult to detect without the tone of voice to indicate the intention, it may be best not to attempt it. Humor gone awry can be devastating to the recipient.

5. And, to the song posters: Try always to assume the best intentions of the criticizers. If something you read comes across mean and nasty, assume it was not meant that way. The poster was able to hear it as s/he wrote it and probably does not realize how it sounds to you at all. Instead, glean the useful info from the post and then move on.

6. One last comment. I always read over my posts before I submit them. I recommend it. I usually use the "preview" function to do so. And I almost always find things that need to be changed or fixed before I click "Post". More than once, I am sure I might have offended someone (I hope I've managed to avoid doing that!).

I hope this is all taken in the friendly spirit in which it was given.

Vicki

[Sing4me88]

HUGE +1 to what TONE has said (and others have alluded to also).

Far from advocating needlessly harsh criticism for the sake of being petty or vindictive, I think constructive criticism is a necessity if a songwriting forum is to be of worth to those who frequent and use it, and more/most importantly, for those willing to learn from or grow through the insight of others.

Yes opinion and taste in music is subjective but that doesn't stop constructive criticism based in firmer observed reality - i.e. 'I like your song, it's got a really nice melody and it was easily listened too but it seemed to me like a 'nice' song rather than a 'commercial' song like you were aiming for'. It's entirely legitimate to tell someone what you liked about their work (subjective) while at the same time offering critique on where you think they are falling down on what they want to achieve (objective) - granted this may only apply to people looking for a publishing deal or trying to produce/write a particular type of song like a modern pop hit. For example, if someone said they were hoping to come up with a country song to pitch in Nashville and it was a really good strong with a strong melody and hook but was loaded with hand claps, synth, swipes and 32 hi-hats you could conceivably say 'your song is great but you've missed the mark in terms of what you wanted. Perhaps you should think of switching where/who you pitch to or changing the production to replace the synth with a fiddle and banjo and those hi-hats to 4ths/8ths of a tambourine'.

I'm not so sure about the 'say nothing if you can't say it's great approach' - I think that immediately demeans the value of feedback. It'd be a great place to post for a feel good factor and an ego massaging if we are all told great things but what use would that be when it comes to pitching? I kinda fell into this 'be nice and don't criticise' trap in some of my earliest collabs. Some of the songs that resulted were clearly wide off the mark of what I'd initially agreed with co-writers and even at an early stage this was obvious but I bit my tongue with the result that many lyrics were made into 'nice' songs rather than 'commercial' songs. There was probably an element of co-writers doing the same, especially when I re-read some older lyrics and see they are laden with cliches, forced rhymes and general sh£t lyrics. I'm not too proud or afraid to admit that I was far from a lyrical genius constrained by a straitjacket of other's mediocrity.....

I started collabing with others more attuned to the 'commercial' aim I was seeking (a few like BOYDIE and JESS on here included) and suddenly the value of healthy critique of lyrics and other elements of the song became apparent.They don't/weren't critiquing just to disagree but because they seen what they believed was an obvious flaw or obstacle in achieving what we had set out to come up with and knew it had to be addressed. This works both ways and there's an implicit understanding that it's not personal but simply 'business' - i.e. writing a song to be pitched. Granted I haven't penned a hit yet but with new collabs and co-writing with new folk with similar aims, more insight and experience I am improving and certainly getting closer to publishing and placements and with this comes increased scrutiny from co-writers and a greater expectation to bring my A-game.

[adamfarr]

Late to this but I think it's important to put yourself in the shoes of the person receiving the comment and think what were they trying to do and how would I feel if I got that comment. And secondly to always frame things as suggestions not as something the other person has necessarily missed or got wrong. But with those provisos,  if we are posting songs here then normally we are expecting and wanting constructive input (or should be) so nothing is off limits.

[Boydie]

Well said ADAMRFARR

I think that succinctly sums up the preferred approach (and at some point I may copy that for future versions of the guidelines and welcome emails for new members if that is ok?)

[adamfarr]

Boydie - not a problem!

[Vintage54]

 
      This is my opinion, for whatever it is worth. I post on here, just to get it out there. Not for adulation, i'm under no illusion, though positive feedback is always welcome. All i hope for is that some words of mine, will hopefully inspire others, the way that others have inspired me. Also, i love this forum because it's like a social club. People coming together from all the four corners, for the love of music and words. Some may call us strangers, i call us distant friends.

                           All we need is love
                                Vintage54
   

[Doodles]

Hey really looking forward to the new developments Boydie. Particularly the Showcase section! Zero expectation for my own shabby efforts - but it pains me that some of the top quality stuff on here attracts so few listeners. I find that my favourite music from here interchanges suprisingly seamlessly with my cd collection and bulks it up a treat. I've even found myself wondering which I'm listening to a few times. The gap in songcraft and even production seems infinitesimal in contrast to the gaping chasm in income. It would be nice if there was some element of nomination and voting for the Showcase tracks, if that is practical.  

With regards to criticism, I've found the 'mixed-bag' feedback the most valuable. I tend to agree with MartynRich and Tone in that you cannot underestimate the value of honest feedback. I'm here to learn and improve, which I guess takes a balance of encouragement and brutal honesty where required. If the best way to improve is to go away and practice an instrument, learn some theory, buy better kit or give up on a song and try something new, I'd like to hear that. However if that was all I heard, I would feel discouraged. Personally I've benefitted hugely from the great support, encouragement and THE EXAMPLE of other forum members. This in itself has encouraged me to practice more, learn more theory, upgrade my kit etc.  

When reviewing I want to give my honest opinion as a listener. But would never want a negative comment to discourage anybody from making, sharing or feeling good about their music. Not always an easy balance.

[pompeyjazz]

Some very good points Ben. I wholeheartedly agree with you regarding the critique. I have benefited so much from the constructive criticism that I've received on the forum. When I think back to when I joined last August I would like to think that I have improved based on the stuff that I have picked up here. With regard to the quality on here, well I'm a big fan of Marc Riley on 6 Music and although he has some cracking new bands on quite frankly some of the stuff is grossly inferior to songs on the forum. Actually I do have to thank Marc as about a year ago I heard a couple of dreadful sessions and it made me think surely I can produce something better than that  If I've achieved that then I've reached my goal. Anyway it's always so much fun and is wonderful to be able to express your creative side whatever that might be 

Cheers fellow forumites

Pompeyjazz

[adamfarr]

One more 2p into the pot - I do think feedback should ideally be as specific as possible. "Lyrics are clunky" is not a helpful comment and just makes the recipient feel inadequate. "Line 3 seemed rushed and to have x more syllables than line 7" is a comment that is actionable.
(Not very demanding am I?!)
Thanks!

[hardtwistmusic]

So much to respond to here.   

First of all......  What is expected of "us" when someone posts here.   

That is too simple a question.  Every poster wants something different when he/she posts.  Some want to be validated with praise.  Some truly want to hear what might be wrong with their song.  Some want help with their lyrics, but want praise for their music. 

Someone said "we're all artists with fragile egos."  That isn't true.  But some here definitely are.  The trick is knowing who you are talking to.   It's rude to give false praise to someone who genuinely wants to make his/her song better. 

And (while not really rude) it creates "disharmony" when you/I/we offer criticism to someone who only wants validation and praise. 

Again... the key is to tread softly until you KNOW who wants criticism and who wants praise. 

THAT, my friend is not easy.  You have to read and listen a lot to know who is who, and who wants what.  The easy way is to just praise every noteworthy song and ignore the rest.  The hard way is to know the players and give each what they need and/or want.  (sometimes what they "need" is FAR different from what they "want." 

As far as the "Works in progress" section being "where the action is" I disagree.  My experience as both a poster, and a reader of other people's posts is that no one bothers to invest much into the "Works in Progress" section. 

It seems like most people either wait for a song to come to the "Finished songs" section, or simply aren't interested. 

While I agree with Caliomoko that many of the songs in the "finished songs" section aren't "finished," I do NOT blame people for skipping the "works in progress section."  I've privately advised several people with incredible songs to just go to the "finished songs" section because their song wasn't going to get any significant feedback in "Works in Progress." 

Until more people begin responding to "Works in Progress" it is (for most posters) pretty much a waste of time in my opinion.  Case in point, I responded to a work in progress three days ago.  My response is still the third newest response in that section.  That means for three days, only TWO posts have received responses newer than the one I responded to.  For that person, it's been a waste of time to post his/her song there instead of just finishing it and posting to "finished songs." 

Okay....  I'm off the soapbox for now.