[GuyBarry]

Hi - I've been on the forum for a little while now and I think I'd like some guidance about what I'm supposed to be doing here.

Recently someone posted a blues song.  It was a great song with really "blues-y" sounding lyrics and I really liked it.  However, having listened through to it a couple of times, I came to the conclusion that the story didn't make a great deal of sense and I said so.  I got taken to task by another poster and it resulted in quite a lively debate.  It was all resolved amicably though.

Now someone else has posted a sort of "jazz/funk" song with a lot of imagery.  Again, it sounds great when you listen to it first, but after listening through to it I thought that maybe the metaphors didn't hang together as well as they might, so I said so.  Again I got taken to task by another poster.  The original writer hasn't got back on the thread yet.

I'm starting to get the feeling that you're really not supposed to comment on lyrics here, just on the music.  I'm not sure why this should be.  The forum guidelines say "ALWAYS post the lyrics with your song. Your topic may be deleted if you can't be bothered".  They also say "When reviewing, be constructive. This is one of the most important guidelines of all. It's fine to say if you don't like a song, but you must say why".  That's what I've tried to do since I've joined the forum but people seem to slap me down if I make any comment about the lyrics.  Aren't they just as important as the music?

In my own work I write lyrics, melody and harmony.  I happen to write comedy where the lyrics are especially important, but when I'm listening to other people's work I always try to listen to the whole thing with a critical ear, not just one part of it.  Isn't that the whole essence of songwriting?

[Skub]

What you are supposed to be doing here Guy,is the same as the rest of us. You listen to a song and offer up a critique.What you must remember is,the critique is only an opinion informed or otherwise. Others may disagree with your opinion,but that doesn't make it any less valid,nor should you take offence,believing you have done something amiss.

Of course lyrical content is available for comment,but don't take it personally if another poster holds an opposing view. It's like decorating your house,the colours and embellishments are a matter of taste and therefore subjective. There is everything here from what yer ma would like to what would give her the screaming heebies.
 You can't walk into someone's house and say,"man that red is too red,it needs more yellow". What you can do is say,"I see you like red,can you explain to me where that love comes from"?

With that question you'll gain an understanding of how the host thinks and the way he wanted to decorate. With that understanding you may be able to influence the colour he chooses for the next room.This can only be good.

Before you know it,you'll be collaborating on a project instead of arguing semantics.

[Paulski]

Hi Guy
Good question!
Not sure I have the answer, but here's my take.
Some songwriters feel that lyrics are not important. As a commenter, I need to learn who those ppl are, because I am not helping them make what they feel is a better song by advising them on lyrical changes. It will just be seen as nit-picking. For example, I don't think the level of reverb on a high-hat is important. If someone were to say - "you need more verb on that hat, man", I'd probably think "whatever...  ". And the only way we can find out what ppl want feedback on is to participate and learn from their responses. Not saying that'll work for you... and sometimes I can't stop myself from being a nit-picking SOB.
Best
Paul

[delb0y]

I say criticise away - we're all here to learn how to improve song-writing and the easiest way to do this is when someone is brave enough to point out our deficiencies.

However, the key thing with lyrics (and music, I guess) is what works for one person does necessarily work for another. What one person intends mightn't be what another would have done in the same situation. Some folks like story songs with beginning / middle / end and all loose ends tied up like a well written novel. Others like nonsense songs, or at least songs where the lyrics don't have to make sense to the listener. Some have genre requirements. Some are happy with imagery rather than plot. Some are happy with clichés because the music is the thing and genre lyrics are actually welcome. Some like sub-text and metaphor. Some like funny rhymes. Some like to hide true stories in a code that means little to anyone other than those "in the know". Others know that without a train or a motorcycle or a sad dog then their non-forum audience will be disappointed.

I guess my point is it's fine - and beneficial - to make observations and criticisms, and it should be encouraged, but always be aware that you may be criticising the lyric for not being something that it was never intended to be. This is why I'm really careful when commenting on songs that aren't in my style (i.e. 95% of the songs here). I've not enough awareness of pop / rock / electro / disco  or anything other than acoustic folk and country to know the requirements of the genre.

Cheers
Derek

[Boydie]

I think SKUB has pretty much summed up my view

I have just read one the threads you have referenced (the blues song one) - I think it is important HOW the feedback is given

There seemed to be a tone in some of your posts that the lyrics were "wrong"

In something as subjective as songwriting there is rarely "right and wrong" - just what people like

It is absolutely fine to point out what you like and what you would suggest to make the song better - but it is always good to remember that this is your opinion and the writer will have their own (and probably everyone else as well)

I also think the attempt at humour (sentenced to 25 years fishing) could be construed as a bit of a sarcastic comment, which naturally gets people's heckles up

The true value of this forum is if several reviewers all mention the same things (eg vague lyrics, I didn't get it, cliche phrases etc.) then the writer may stop and think about whether a re-write is needed - or they have the right to completely ignore the critiques

Debate is always good and I encourage it here - as in this thread - and it is great to see that everything was resolved amicably

I am 100% sure nobody intends to be "nasty" and everyone's intentions are good

I also appreciate the danger of just using the written word to communicate, which can be risky in itself

So carry on saying what you want to say but just remember to make it clear you are saying things "that you would consider" or "if it were me I would..." or "the song may have more impact if you..." Etc.

Posting a song is a big deal for the poster and any criticism is like we are criticising their children

I think most people want genuine feedback such as: I liked..., I didn't really like..., You could consider...

As you get to know the individuals on the forum it is easier to judge how far to go with the critique and what the original poster would find helpful/valuable

[tina m]

what you have to remember is we are all artistes with fragile egos &  what we are here for first & foremost is  for  attention  &  applause...we want to be told we are wonderful  & our songs are realy as good as we think they are….so when you do a review  you first need to find the good things in the song & say nice things about those bits....you need to be encouraging & you need  to massage that persons ego with baby oil!
when youve done that sufficiently  & they are jumping up & down with joy shouting 'at last a  guy who knows what hes bloody talking about! ..then you can start to suggest that this  bit might be able to be improved  or  that bit just sounds a teeny bit off ..its simple realy  
you have to remember most of us  do not have a audience  outside of here ..if you are straight away going to boo & throw remarks about dodgy lyrics  that person is going to storm off stage in a huff or even jump out in the audience & thump you

why do you think my signature says 'tell me i am wonderful & i will be nice to you'  

[delb0y]

Be interesting to share our favourite lyrics (maybe in another thread) and explain why we like them. It's probably not possible to separate lyrics from the song, and indeed the moment/history of release - there are no doubt songs that were trail-blazers lyrically that may have been improved on by countless imitations, but without those originals who knows where we'd be?

I started to do this with one of my favourite songs - Heart of Saturday Night - and I know Boydie has plans to do something along these lines, so I've resisted the urge to do any more in depth analysis of "professional" songs. But I think it would give great insight into what each of us is looking for in our music, and thus help other direct their criticisms and suggestions more appropriately.

I mean, how many times have you played your absolute favourite all time song to someone and they've just looked at you, to use a cliché, like you've just shown a card trick to a dog? Sometimes it's good to know where people are coming from, and where they want to get to, if you're going to help them on that journey.

[MartynRich]

Giving constructive criticism is an incredibly difficult thing to get right. It depends on so many things, including your tone, how you say it and the sensibilities of the other person. But...it IS important so don´t lose heart. Just try to get a bit more constructive at it and positive about your suggestions for the original poster.

Don´t stop doing it though, I prefer criticism and am happy to accept it (even if I go and swear and scream in another room afterwards).

[GuyBarry]

Thanks for all the responses.  I'll comment on detail in the morning but I was a little surprised by this:

you have to remember most of us  do not have a audience  outside of here

Is that right?  I've performed all my songs on stage at open mic events, I've played them to friends, and I've recorded four for an EP which is coming out shortly.  I'd like to give them more exposure, which is partly the reason why I joined this forum.  The idea that most of you here might be just playing your songs to each other hadn't occurred to me.  Maybe I've misunderstood the nature of the community.

[Boydie]

The beauty of this community is the wide mix of different genres, styles, approach and "levels" of songwriters

At any time on the front page you might see posts from people posting a song they have written for the first time, a pro songwriting with a publishing deal & placements, a performing songwriter, a veteran songwriter, some just starting out etc. etc.

I think the cause of most "upsets" is the original poster not giving enough info/detail of what feedback they are looking for

I am looking at ways this can be improved and am even considering a short "form" that should be filled out so it forces the original poster to consider what feedback they are after - as just slinging a song up and saying "let me know what you think" does not really help

I much prefer reviewing songs where the original poster says something like "I would like feedback on my lyrics - do they work for the genre" or "how is the mix" or "does the current arrangement work - should I consider a bridge?" - etc

[GuyBarry]

Thanks again to everyone for all their comments.  I've tried to respond to as many people as possible but please don't take it personally if I haven't included a quote from yours - I've read everything and taken it all to heart.

What you must remember is,the critique is only an opinion informed or otherwise. Others may disagree with your opinion,but that doesn't make it any less valid,nor should you take offence,believing you have done something amiss.

That's a very good point and I'll try to remember it in future.  In the second example I cited above the songwriter has now come back and responded positively, so perhaps I'm worrying about nothing.

I guess my point is it's fine - and beneficial - to make observations and criticisms, and it should be encouraged, but always be aware that you may be criticising the lyric for not being something that it was never intended to be.

That's a good point as well.  Different genres of music have different lyrical conventions.  I suppose because I write "wordy" songs I tend to listen to the lyrics more keenly than most, and perhaps I expect more from the lyrics than the writer intends sometimes.  It does annoy me slightly though when people say things like "it's up to the listener to put their own interpretation on the lyrics".  That may be true in some cases but in others I get the feeling it's an attempt to absolve the writer of any responsibility to produce a meaningful lyric.  If the meaning is supposed to be in the listener's imagination then all song lyrics might as well consist of nonsense syllables.

There seemed to be a tone in some of your posts that the lyrics were "wrong"

I'm sorry if I gave that impression - I'm usually careful not to use terms like "wrong".  I normally try to say what I like about a song, then point out an area where I think there might be room for improvement and explain why.  The requirement to be constructive is very important in my view.

I also think the attempt at humour (sentenced to 25 years fishing) could be construed as a bit of a sarcastic comment, which naturally gets people's heckles up

I do have a habit of tempering my criticisms with humour and maybe it backfires sometimes!  In that particular case I was genuinely curious to find out where "Rocky Island" was, and when it turned out to be a fishing resort I got such a surreal image in my head that I couldn't resist making a joke of it.

(If I can digress slightly, I think that to us Brits a lot of American place-names can sound very exotic and romantic, when the reality may be otherwise.  It can work in reverse as well - there's an old song called "Ashby-de-la-Zouch Castle Abbey by the Sea" written by an American who'd never been to England.  Anyone who's been to Ashby-de-la-Zouch will know it's about as far from the sea as you can get!)

what you have to remember is we are all artistes with fragile egos &  what we are here for first & foremost is  for  attention  &  applause...

Well I'm not!  I get my attention and applause from live performance (hopefully).  I'm here to receive critical feedback on my work, and to try to give constructive feedback to others.

so when you do a review  you first need to find the good things in the song & say nice things about those bits....you need to be encouraging & you need  to massage that persons ego with baby oil!

I think I've done that in nearly all my reviews so far.  There was one song which was so banal and trite that I really couldn't find anything good to say about it, and I noticed that other reviewers were struggling as well.  But with that one exception I've been greatly impressed by the standard of songs on the forum, and for each of them the good points have hugely overshone the bad ones.  I suppose it can be easier to find detailed reasons why you don't like something than why you do like it, and maybe I should make more of an effort to analyse what it is I like about a song before I go into detailed criticism.

Be interesting to share our favourite lyrics (maybe in another thread) and explain why we like them.

That'd be a great idea.  Do you want to start a thread?

I think the cause of most "upsets" is the original poster not giving enough info/detail of what feedback they are looking for

That's another really good point.  Because I write comedy my main criterion is "is it funny?", which is of course rather different from the sort of feedback that people are looking for on other songs.  I can appreciate that if someone posts a song looking for feedback on the instrumentation or melody, and they get feedback on the lyrical structure instead, they might be a bit miffed.

Can I ask why there's a forum requirement to post the lyrics with every song?  If it's sung properly you should be able to hear the lyrics anyway (which I'm pleased to say is true of most songs posted here, unlike a lot of pop songs).  With my songs there's a slight issue in that if you read the lyrics first then all the jokes are spoilt, which is why I've been posting links to the lyrics rather than the actual lyrics (I hope that's OK).  But the fact that writers are required to post the lyrics would suggest to me that detailed lyrical scrutiny is encouraged.

[Neil C]

Good thread. Everyone saying everything is great is not use to anyone. Like at work and in life feedback, suggestions and criticism has to be for the benefit of the songwriter and delivered in a way they can take on board.
 
Neil 

[delb0y]

I am looking at ways this can be improved and am even considering a short "form" that should be filled out so it forces the original poster to consider what feedback they are after - as just slinging a song up and saying "let me know what you think" does not really help

I much prefer reviewing songs where the original poster says something like "I would like feedback on my lyrics - do they work for the genre" or "how is the mix" or "does the current arrangement work - should I consider a bridge?" - etc

These are good ideas. One thing that I find interesting is how the Finished Song section rather than the WiP section is the busy one. All this stuff we're talking about would better fit in the WiP section where a song is still in the creation stage. e.g. If someone is asking if the lyrics fit the genre, would that not be better in the WiP? That's the section where (when I first joined) I expected all the action to be. My expectation was that the Finished Song area would be more of a showcase place, a sort of, I've taken advice and here's the finished thing (song-wise at least. Production-wise is a whole other discussion).

Cheers
D

[Boydie]

This thread is really useful for me as I am currently collating the survey responses and deciding on how to take the forum forward

Here is my my current thinking (a bit of an exclusive sneak preview before I formally "present" my plans for discussion  )

I think there should be 3 song forums:

Work In Progress

This is where songs that are "being written" live and should be where the main action is - especially for those new to songwriting and those wanting to help/mentor new writers

Some examples would be: here is my first verse but I am stuck for a chorus..., I have just written the chorus of a new song, is it hooky enough for modern pop..., here is my first scratch recording, what production elements should I consider... etc. etc.

The feedback can therefore be a little more "detailed" and "harsh" - as hopefully people are not too attached to their song yet as it is still being formed

to continue SKUB's excellent room decoration analogy...

This is where you might show a friend some magazine pictures and paint colour swatches saying you are thinking of decorating your room - here are the things I am considering. How about this big coffee table over there and a big lamp over there

At this point you are more likely to say - oh, I don't like that colour and that lamp is really big and ugly, what about a fish tank instead as a feature

Finished Songs

This is where you have completed your song to a point you consider it "finished" (not that we ever really get to this point - "abandoned" may be a better word!) - it may be a demo or a fully produced song but it is at the point where you have done everything to it you wanted or are able to do

This may be just a guitar/vocal recorded on an iPhone or it could be a full professional recording and master

However, posting in this forum is still asking for feedback/critique of the SONG and all elements (melody, chords, lyrics, production, performance etc. etc.) - but you are still free to be selective on the feedback you want - eg I know my voice sucks so please don't tell me that, I just want feedback on the melody and production...

Using the room decoration analogy...

Your friend invites you around to their newly decorated living room, where all the furniture is still within its return period, and then explicitly asks you "what do you think? - should I change anything?"

The discussion would obviously depend on how well you know them but you will probably say what you like and if there was something you didn't you may tactfully say it. If it was completely awful you might tactfully ask why they made such bold choices

Showcase

I think a great way to expand the forum is to actively encourage music LISTENERS to visit the forum - Ie not musicians/songwriters but people that just want to listen to good music

This will give our members a chance to grow an "audience" and potentially build a following

Songs in this section would be finished and completed - not necessarily uber produced but there would need to be an element of "quality control" to make sure that listeners are actually attracted to listen and give feedback (and not just because it is something they have to do to get comments on their own material!!  )

I have not yet decided how this would work and it may start off just me choosing the songs I think are most suitable for this area or give members the opportunity to submit songs for consideration - not everyone will agree with my choices but to start things off I would want to control this if I am investing in attracting a new group of members - ie "listeners"

Also, adding this level of "pre-screening" will prevent the "fly by nighters" getting exposure in this section of the forum

I would expect the reviews to be much more like the reviews a commercially release song might get in the press or blogs. More opinion rather than a detailed critique and ideas for improving the song

Using the decoration analogy....

This is where you simply visit a friends house. You might say things like "wow - I love the colour of your walls and that lamp is gorgeous" but you certainly wouldn't walk in and give them a detailed critique of their decor without being asked (or you wouldn't stay long!)

This is likely to be one of the first major changes to the forum so any thoughts are more than welcome

[tina m]

delboy said: 'These are good ideas. One thing that I find interesting is how the Finished Song section rather than the WiP section is the busy one. All this stuff we're talking about would better fit in the WiP section '
[/quote]

thats becos everyone wants maximum attention for there song so they post it in the busiest section where they will get that ...
i still reckon its attention seeking that drives forums like this
when i was looking at forums to go to before i decided to come back here i noticed peoples names cropping up over & over again...
there are people here on up to 5 other forums posting the same song for review asking the same questions ...if that doesnt confirm its all about wanting attention i dont know what does