3 Traps Songwriters Fall Into

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Paulski

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« Reply #30 on: December 15, 2015, 05:06:39 PM »
Great topic!
I think that top 10 list from 1967 tells us a lot (thanks for posting that Keith :))
Back then most everything was "pop" and pop meant popular music not some formula sh*t like you hear these days. I think things started to separate in the 70's when radio stations were approved to play specific genres only (at least that's what happened in Canada). So if you wanted to hear "The Green Grass of Home" you tuned to a country station. If you wanted "Let's spend the Night Together" tune to a rock one. Our "CRTC" thought they were protecting existing stations from competition - idiots :(

But I'm not bitter about it... :)
Paul


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« Reply #31 on: December 15, 2015, 06:47:23 PM »
New here, and still trying to find my feet and get used to the forum so forgive me if I'm out of order.

It feels to me that production rather than song-writing is at the fore-front in what's you're saying here, Friedemann. There's nothing wrong with that -  I've always thought the arranger and producer and mixer and masterer don't always get their fair dues. But they're not the song-writer. I'm sure one could take any song of the last fifty years and give it a modern treatment that wouldn't sound dated - but, again, that's not the song-writer's call (IMHO).

That said, from just listening to a few of the tunes in the Finished Song thread and reading some of the comment a lot of people are commenting on the production and arrangement as well as the song, so maybe I'm in the wrong forum. For me, the song in its purist form is of interest - ideally an acoustic guitar or piano and a vocal - all the other stuff can come later.

Like I said, I may be at the wrong place. I'm in my 50s and the pop charts have no relevance to me. I'm not looking to sell a song to Justin Beiber or One Direction - I wouldn't recognize them on the street or on the wireless. What I want to do is learn to write songs that will stand me in good stead when I sit down at an Open Mic with just my guitar. If I could write a song a tenth as good as John Prine's worst song I'll be a happy camper.

As an aside, aside from the Adele song I recognize none of the other Billboard top ten listed below - but I know all of the 50 year old songs. Heh!

Cheers
Derek



Totally agree with the above.

M

Friedemann

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« Reply #32 on: December 16, 2015, 10:57:39 AM »
There weren't many outlets for music in the 60s (no radio 1 until '67) so I suppose everything and anything was mainstream and the chart reflects this.

Even 10 years after that you could hear a pretty rough and quite amateurish (but great!) Adverts song followed by a fantastic classy extravaganza by Earth Wind and Fire.

Maybe the good music goes elsewhere for its listeners.

And yes, I'm gobsmacked that Young Friedmann has only heard of one of those songs which probably reinforces the fact that I am very old and completely out of touch!

I think this is the case, yes. Love "Young Friedemann" btw ;) Also have to agree with what Paulski said. I do believe that availability plays a HUGE parts in what sells best. Most people just turn on the radio without thinking too much about what they want, so they just get what they're served (which most often is Pop).

You can like Pop or hate it. I personally despised it for many years but have completely changed around in the past 4 years. :)
"You got to sound gefährlich"

diademgrove

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« Reply #33 on: December 16, 2015, 02:15:53 PM »

You mention lyrics fitting the music a couple of times. I think this isn't as important anymore, because music is consumed very differently today. Today, we have music running all the time and need to hear a song 2 or 3 times before we really notice it. We hear the music first, THEN we listen to the lyrics. If the lyrics are nice, that's seen as a bonus.


I'm not sure this is necessarily true. I would say nearly all the top 10 have traditional pop music themes in terms of their lyrics. Your friend Drake has basically re-written Dion's Runaround Sue from 1961. It's my opinion that Adele is number 1 because the music and lyrics go together.


I think music has never been more diverse. It's just that the diversity has moved into the niches, and it takes a little bit of work to find it. Tool, NIN, etc all have a huge following of hardcore fans, their music just sells very differently than that of more commercial artists. They typically release an album every 3-5 years (tool hasn't released one in a decade I think), whereas some big artists now release a new single every two months, completely abandoning the concept of albums. In general, pop sells quicker and dies quicker, whereas alternative music (if you wanna call it that) sells slower but longer. The billboard charts are on a week to week basis, so they are made to reflect those short-term sales, which might be an explanation for why the charts are all filled with pop music.


This has always been the case. Although with Spotify and Youtube it is so much easier to find. In the 1970s, when I started paying for my own records, you had to search local record shops for singles that weren't in the top 40. Many classic records had been deleted and achieved legend status. I grew up in the 60s and 70s when, roughly, every three months artists released a single. It was not unusual for the single not to be on the album. The single market was far more important than albums for people like me well into the 1970s. Earning more money then made albums affordable.


And another interesting fact: I am 26 now and from your 1967 list (which is now roughly 50 years old), I recognize 7 artists but only 1 song (and while I don't listen to a lot of oldies, I would consider myself a music nut). There are certainly classics which will stick around (I swear, if I hear "Last Christmas" one more time!), but unfortunately, most music dies with its generation. This is not because the songs aren't good, it's just that the sound (production AND writing) and lyrical themes have changed so much that this generation doesn't much care for them anymore.

So glad we're having this conversation! :) Looking forward to your response!!

I discovered Hendrix in the mid-70s. Hardly anybody else I knew liked him. He'd been dead 5 years, his albums didn't sell and he was basically an old hippy who had died young. The 80s weren't much better for Hendrix fans. However a new generation discovered him and he is now, almost, universally recognised as the greatest guitarist that walked the planet. However for teenagers today that will be on the basis of 3 or 4 songs. Hey Joe, Purple Haze, All Along the Watchtower and possibly Crosstown Traffic.

The same would apply to the Stones and the other people you recognise from 1967. You'll know one or maybe two songs from each of them and that will be about it. However most of the 10 mentioned built a successful career that has lasted until today. Nearly 50 years. It will be unlikely that many of the current billboard top 10 will build a career that lasts that long. The reason is the quality of the songs they wrote or sang.

Finally, I do respect your knowledge and what you offer. I just happen to think you don't recognise the full potential of what you are saying by restricting it to pop music.

I'd be interested if you could tell me how the 3 traps songwriters fall into together with lyric less story telling applies to Chuck Berry's No Particular Place to Go. Its old, the production isn't modern but your principles apply just the same.

Have fun and keep rocking

Keith

Friedemann

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« Reply #34 on: December 16, 2015, 04:37:57 PM »
Hey Keith!

Interesting stuff. Never knew that artists already released singles every couple of months in the 60s.

Whether Adele's Hello is #1 because of it is hard to say, but I completely agree that the connection of lyric and music plays a part in it. But I do think (know, in fact) that there will always be commercially successful songs that don't have that whose strengths lie elsewhere.

Playing Devil's advocate here, but hasn't been Madonna been around for a while? ;) Unless you want to argue that pretty much every part of her body has been replaced over the years. And of course music is much more short-lived these days, no question about it. But I believe that is because of the sheer mass of songs rather than quality. I still hear amazing new music every day. I sometimes feel like new music only seems more fleeting because that's how we LISTEN to it. I used to buy my CDs, study the booklet, order fan shirts from catalogues and watched TV shows to see Bryan Adams sing live. Today, I find something, listen to it a couple of times in the background and that's usually it. My emotional connection is less deep, which makes the songs seem less deep.

This is of course my opinion - was it Tim Minchin who said opinions are like assholes, but unlike assholes, you should examine your opinions on a regular basis?

Quote
Finally, I do respect your knowledge and what you offer. I just happen to think you don't recognise the full potential of what you are saying by restricting it to pop music.

Thanks for the kind words. Restricting myself to pop was a VERY conscious choice that took me many months to make (I started working on Holistic Songwriting in January this year). Here's my thinking behind it. I think it may also clear up a couple of other things.

1) All styles gravitate towards Pop. Look at Metal, which started out as this extreme thing. Now it's widely accepted in the shape of Limp Bizkit, Linkin Park, etc. It's still Pop, but they definitely took a bite out of the "Pop music rule book". So I think all songwriters can learn something from Pop.

2) Most of my "fans" don't write Pop, which is exactly what I had hoped for, but I want them to understand that I'm coming from a certain angle (commercial music) and that all my ideas and techniques spring from that. People (like yourself) get that my stuff doesn't just apply to Pop music . When you watch a stand-up perform, you don't necessarily agree with him but he's entertaining because you get where he's coming from. If I said (like so many other songwriting coaches) "I teach EVERY style", it becomes much harder to place me.

Take a look at Lady Gaga. She's a pop queen to the outside world, but only few people know that she has a background in jazz. It's her image. I'm also not just "Pop", I have written for (and conducted) orchestras, Big Bands, Drum bands and choirs, but if I told you that the first time we met, you'd probably think a) he probably does a lot but nothing's any good and b) I can't relate.

3) I don't want to have to start using sentences like "do this. Unless you're writing Rock, in which case do this. Unless you're in 6/8, in which case..." etc. By restricting myself to Pop, my message is clear and simple.

4) Pop is easy to access. You don't need to know much about music theory or orchestration (I've written for a couple of Big Bands, and it's quite a challenge to understand all the different instruments).

There are countless more reasons, but you get the idea.
"You got to sound gefährlich"

diademgrove

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« Reply #35 on: December 16, 2015, 10:22:59 PM »
Madonna is much more musically significant than the post-Brian Jones Rolling Stones. At least in my opinion. I'll think about the rest of your post tomorrow.

I'm just going to relax after our 2-1 victory against Reading.

pompeyjazz

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montydog

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« Reply #37 on: December 17, 2015, 12:20:29 AM »
I have to say that the title of the post sets us all up to fail. Who decides what is a trap and what is a brilliant piece of creativity? Bohemian Rhapsody by Queen couldn't get airplay because the fore runners of people who have your attitude said it was too long. If the crazy DJ Kenny Everett hadn't championed it and lied about how long it was, it would probably have never been a hit.

The phrase "traps that songwriters fall into" suggests that there is a right and wrong way to write songs which is complete bollocks.

Many truly successful artists/songs have broken all the rules set by the people who have your mindset and completely changed the musical landscape.

Discuss.

M

Neil C

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« Reply #38 on: December 17, 2015, 08:00:33 AM »
Interesting. In this context traps seem to imply things that restrict getting to your full potential or the best commercial pop...
:)
Neil 
songwriter of no repute..

Boydie

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« Reply #39 on: December 17, 2015, 08:12:12 AM »
I have been following this discussion with interest but haven't yet contributed as I do understand where FRIEDEMANN is coming from (as many know I champion "commercial pop") but I just can't quite "buy in" to what is being promoted and this approach to the "rules"

I couldn't quite put my finger on how to phrase it until MONTY's last post:

Quote
The phrase "traps that songwriters fall into" suggests that there is a right and wrong way to write songs which is complete bollocks.

Many truly successful artists/songs have broken all the rules set by the people who have your mindset and completely changed the musical landscape.

I couldn't agree with this statement more - and couldn't have put it better myself

Whilst I completely accept that there are "rules" to songwriting and genres (which I always put in " ") I prefer to see them as "common themes" that are clear to see and can be consciously learnt (by reading songwriting books, studying songs etc.) or are just absorbed by "osmosis" from what you listen to (often from what you listened to during your younger formative years)

Eg - if I want to write a metal or a heavy rock track I might want to consider using electric guitars, if I want to write folk I would probably pick up my acoustic, if I am writing pop I will dig out my sample cd of swooshy sound fx etc. etc. - the same common themes can apply to structure, lyric content, themes, melodies, mixing etc. etc.

However, I find the language of "absolutes" that is being used a bit of a turn off

Someone else mentioned the tone of the article being a bit patronising etc. and I can see why some people thought this - although I completely understand that this is not FRIEDEMANN's intention

I find it a very fine line between giving "observations and advice" and "preaching" (which ironically is something to bear in mind when writing lyrics for songs!)

The views have obviously provoked discussion, which is a great thing

On this single point instead of "3 traps songwriters fall in to" I would have much preferred to have seen something like:

3 things to bear in mind when writing commercial pop

3 common mistakes made when writing commercially

3 potential traps to avoid when songwriting

I find this way of presenting the same thing MUCH more engaging as it doesn't deal in "absolutes", which is difficult to do in an area such a songwriting, which is sooooooo subjective

In the "pitching world" I completely accept that there are some very specific "dos and don'ts" but even these are determined by the particular brief (is label, tv, film, library etc.) but it is dangerous to extrapolate these things to songwriting in general (IMHO)
« Last Edit: December 17, 2015, 08:21:42 AM by Boydie »
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PaulAds

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« Reply #40 on: December 17, 2015, 09:27:01 AM »
Friedemann...Perhaps English isn't his first language?

Which might explain some of the clunky wording.

He seems like a really nice fella who is just trying to help with some advice that we are all free to  consider/ignore...I know he's got a book out but hasn't made much of that. It's served as an interesting discussion - though I must say I feel a little for him now.

Personally, I wish he'd been around with feedback Friday to persuade Queen to cut out that barmy Scaramouche Bismillah Fandango bit in the middle of an otherwise canny song :)

My first song submission here didn't follow the "rules" of songwriting...and that was pleasantly, helpfully and correctly pointed out to me :)
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diademgrove

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« Reply #41 on: December 17, 2015, 11:20:49 AM »
Personally, I wish he'd been around with feedback Friday to persuade Queen to cut out that barmy Scaramouche Bismillah Fandango bit in the middle of an otherwise canny song :)


That's the best bit, 17, drunk, walking from pub to pub in the middle of winter singing at the top of our voices, Scaramouche, scaramouche can you do the fandango? What's not to like?

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« Reply #42 on: December 17, 2015, 12:56:54 PM »
Friedmann is a very enthusiastic young fellow and seems like a nice guy who has given a lot of time to giving his views about some of the forum members' songs for absolutely nothing. Yes, he is promoting his book, but as Paul says he isn't being heavy about it and his Friday broadcasts are engaging and I've enjoyed watching them.
 
He hasn't made any false promises and has made it clear that he is talking from today's commercial point of view. We can take it or leave it, can't we?

While I agree with Monty that the creative boundaries ought not to be too limiting, there have long been 'song factories' and writers who studied the formulating of a hit song for the current market and i'll bet that most of us love some of these 'manufactured' songs. I know I do. So isn't Friedmann just continuing that method. It might be that some of us old curmudgeons think that most modern music is not as good as it used to be but plenty of young folk clearly think otherwise.

And Friedmann I am still intrigued to know which was the only song that you knew from that 1967 chart. I'm amazed that either Hey Joe or I'm A Believer is unknown to you! Us old farts, eh?
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diademgrove

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« Reply #43 on: December 17, 2015, 11:05:10 PM »
I agree with the Viscount. I think Friedemann's advice is valuable and has contributed enormously to the forum. I enjoy listening to his Feedback Friday's and seeing if I agree with his comments. Usually I do, but not always.

Keith

ps I'd love to know which song he knows as well.

pompeyjazz

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« Reply #44 on: December 17, 2015, 11:15:12 PM »
Hey Keith, totally agree. I love the feedback Friday stuff. It's my top watch at the weekend. Come on Freidemann what was that song ??? It has to be Hey Joe ?

Cheers

John