[Friedemann]

I think you may have misunderstood me, my feedback wasn't aimed at you personally but thanks for the insight into the way you work. You asked for our thoughts on the article and that is what I gave, I'll try and clarify my thoughts here but please remember you did ask for them.

Oh boy, DevyE, I am really sorry if I made you feel like I insulted you in any way. I really didn't mean to.

In fact, you absolutely have a point and I even meant to defend you but maybe that came across wrong. What I meant with my previous post was that I completely understand that Holistic Songwriting is not for everyone. My audience is writers who are interested in making a professional career as a songwriter. And writing Pop music does have a lot of rules.

About "talking down to my audience": I'm very sorry if you feel that way. I have heard this comment before. I can assure you I don't mean to sound patronizing. From my perspective, the way I write is to-the-point, no-bullshit and clear (at least that's what I'm going for). Some people really like it, and some see it as patronizing. I personally don't like the opposite, I have had too many teachers who can't put their foot down and kick my ass if necessary. I believe it's a love-it-or-hate-it kinda thing. It is impossible to make everyone happy and I sincerely apologize if I seemed rude to you.

@diademgroove: I always listen to the full songs. There is still a lot of variety in pop music in my experience.

[DevyE]

Friedemann, we're cool

[Friedemann]

@DevyE: I'm even wearing sunglasses at the moment.

[montydog]

Interesting post. It all depends on your perspective and why you're writing/recording. I like to actually like what I write and to be able to listen to it and enjoy it. If I was writing to try and get a song on the charts, I wouldn't be able to do that. diademgrove's post about the Billboard top 50 shows that if you write to a formula, you get formula music. Bloody awful drivel that everyone's forgotten next week.

[Friedemann]

Hi montydog. I actually disagree with diademgrove's comment. I think the charts are still very diverse. Yes, they are formulaic, but if I have learned one thing from writing in so many styles it's that all styles are. They all have their own rules and they all sound "the same" to an outsider.

I have friends who will listen to metal and say it's all the same, whereas I am so used to the rules of the genre that I hear all the nuances. I don't have that with Salsa music for example, because my ear isn't as trained in this style and to me all Salsa sounds the same.

I think listening to a 12-minute summary of 50 songs can give you the impression that the songs are more alike than they really are. It's like reading the blurbs of 20 thrillers and going "wait, this one is also about a killer? Man, these books all follow a formula. Get some new ideas, guys!".

I always listen to the billboard songs in full. If you listen to this weeks top 5, you'll hear Adele's Hello, Drake's Hotline Bling, The Weeknd's The Hills and Justin Bieber's Sorry & What Do you mean. Apart from the last 2, these songs could not be more different (to my ears). But judge for yourself.

Would love to hear your thoughts on this.

[diademgrove]

I've taken your advice and listened to the Billboard top 10. I would say that all the songs are broadly ballads. I would say the production on each of them is similar which makes them sound the same even though the songs are different. So here's my thoughts on the individual songs

10. Selena Gomez Same Old Love

Her roots are Lana Del Rey without the interesting lyrics. I found the handclaps annoying. Although the breakdown was a very pleasant surprise and the best part of listening to the whole top ten.

9. Meghan Trainor Like I'm Gonna Lose You

Clever lyrics. I found some of the vocal rhythm strange. I thought the chorus was a bit flat. My first impression was nice but forgettable.

8. Alessia Cara Here

Portishead meets Barry White. A rap song about someone who doesn't like the party and why. Eventually I ended up saying who cares. Could have been an interesting song, but wasn't. Waste of a great Portishead track. Alessia can rap but really had nothing to say, at least to me.

7. Justin Bieber Love Yourself

Tried too hard to be clever. Some great lines, really well sung but without the cleverness could have been very good. Reminds me of 10cc who I thought were always too clever.

6. Shawn Mendes Stiches

Sounds far too happy to be in stitches over a lost love. The music did all the right things in highlighting the chorus but didn't fit with the words. More appropriate to finding love than losing it.

5. The Weeknd The Hills

Started with a bang, then dropped in intensity and went off in a strange direction. The different sections didn't work for me. Pity. I expected more and got less. As it went on I became less interested.

4. Justin Bieber What do You Mean?

Out of the three Bieber songs I liked this the best. The music and lyrics work. Not really my kind of music but I can appreciate the talent that went into it.

3. Drake Hotline Bling

I found this dull. You can see why she left him.

2. Justin Bieber Sorry

I thought the music did not compliment the lyrics. A song about breaking up with jaunty music, not my taste.

1. Adele Hello

Head and shoulders above the rest, which is why its number 1. Music and lyrics go together well. Do I think its great music? No, the chorus reminds me of one too many power ballads from the 80s.

In contrast to the billboard top 10 here's the UK top ten from 26 January 1967

10. Cliff Richard and the Shadows In the Country
9. Jimi Hendrix Experience Hey Joe
8. The Seekers Morningtown Ride
7. The Rolling Stones Lets Spend the Night Together
6. The Four Tops Standing in the Shadows of Love
5. The Who Happy Jack
4. Tom Jones Green Green Grass of Home
3. Cat Stevens Matthew and Son
2. The Move Night of Fear
1. The Monkess I'm a Believer

I would say the chart in 1967 had something for most people, kids, teenagers, parents and even grandparents. Most of these songs would be recognised today.

I would say the current billboard chart hasn't got something for everybody which may be why the music industry is in a mess. In 50 years time how many will be remembered?

Music is wonderful because it just comes down to opinions. These are mine.

Keith

[Friedemann]

3. Drake Hotline Bling

I found this dull. You can see why she left him.

This made my day Thanks for the great comment. Good point on there being a lot of ballads. Maybe because of winter?

I have a couple of observations - not to argue with you, because I respect your opinion as I feel you respect mine - just because I think it's interesting:

You mention lyrics fitting the music a couple of times. I think this isn't as important anymore, because music is consumed very differently today. Today, we have music running all the time and need to hear a song 2 or 3 times before we really notice it. We hear the music first, THEN we listen to the lyrics. If the lyrics are nice, that's seen as a bonus.

I think music has never been more diverse. It's just that the diversity has moved into the niches, and it takes a little bit of work to find it. Tool, NIN, etc all have a huge following of hardcore fans, their music just sells very differently than that of more commercial artists. They typically release an album every 3-5 years (tool hasn't released one in a decade I think), whereas some big artists now release a new single every two months, completely abandoning the concept of albums. In general, pop sells quicker and dies quicker, whereas alternative music (if you wanna call it that) sells slower but longer. The billboard charts are on a week to week basis, so they are made to reflect those short-term sales, which might be an explanation for why the charts are all filled with pop music.

And another interesting fact: I am 26 now and from your 1967 list (which is now roughly 50 years old), I recognize 7 artists but only 1 song (and while I don't listen to a lot of oldies, I would consider myself a music nut). There are certainly classics which will stick around (I swear, if I hear "Last Christmas" one more time!), but unfortunately, most music dies with its generation. This is not because the songs aren't good, it's just that the sound (production AND writing) and lyrical themes have changed so much that this generation doesn't much care for them anymore.

So glad we're having this conversation! Looking forward to your response!!

[diademgrove]

I'd be interested to know which song, it'll tell me a lot and help with my reply.

[Jambrains]

I'd be interested to know which song, it'll tell me a lot and help with my reply.

Given that Friedemann is a southpaw I would be utterly surprised if the answer is not Hey Joe. 

[delb0y]

New here, and still trying to find my feet and get used to the forum so forgive me if I'm out of order.

It feels to me that production rather than song-writing is at the fore-front in what's you're saying here, Friedemann. There's nothing wrong with that -  I've always thought the arranger and producer and mixer and masterer don't always get their fair dues. But they're not the song-writer. I'm sure one could take any song of the last fifty years and give it a modern treatment that wouldn't sound dated - but, again, that's not the song-writer's call (IMHO).

That said, from just listening to a few of the tunes in the Finished Song thread and reading some of the comment a lot of people are commenting on the production and arrangement as well as the song, so maybe I'm in the wrong forum. For me, the song in its purist form is of interest - ideally an acoustic guitar or piano and a vocal - all the other stuff can come later.

Like I said, I may be at the wrong place. I'm in my 50s and the pop charts have no relevance to me. I'm not looking to sell a song to Justin Beiber or One Direction - I wouldn't recognize them on the street or on the wireless. What I want to do is learn to write songs that will stand me in good stead when I sit down at an Open Mic with just my guitar. If I could write a song a tenth as good as John Prine's worst song I'll be a happy camper.

As an aside, aside from the Adele song I recognize none of the other Billboard top ten listed below - but I know all of the 50 year old songs. Heh!

Cheers
Derek

[pompeyjazz]

Really enjoying reading this thread and appreciating all the different opinions being voiced.

Going back to the hits of '67 I was absolutely gobsmacked that you said Friedmann you only knew one song, until...... I applied the same logic and looked at the best selling songs of 1938 which incidentally were......

1 Artie Shaw - Begin the Beguine  
2 Bob Hope & Shirley Ross - Thanks For the Memory
3 Seven Dwarfs - Whistle While You Work
4 The Andrews Sisters - Bei Mir Bist Du Schoen
5 Fred Astaire - Nice Work If You Can Get It

I'm only familiar with two of those songs, and one as it was a cover in the 70's, the other one is obvious  

Other members should try the same experiment - Top songs from 23 years before you were born !

I think the great thing about this forum is that there are people coming from so many angles. Of course the song is the most important but production does play a big part these days and even a simple acoustic or piano track can sound much enhanced with some considered production.

I have learned so much in the past few months it's unbelievable, mainly down to members contributions and experimentation.

Cheers

John

[diademgrove]

New here, and still trying to find my feet and get used to the forum so forgive me if I'm out of order.

It feels to me that production rather than song-writing is at the fore-front in what's you're saying here, Friedemann. There's nothing wrong with that -  I've always thought the arranger and producer and mixer and masterer don't always get their fair dues. But they're not the song-writer. I'm sure one could take any song of the last fifty years and give it a modern treatment that wouldn't sound dated - but, again, that's not the song-writer's call (IMHO).

That said, from just listening to a few of the tunes in the Finished Song thread and reading some of the comment a lot of people are commenting on the production and arrangement as well as the song, so maybe I'm in the wrong forum. For me, the song in its purist form is of interest - ideally an acoustic guitar or piano and a vocal - all the other stuff can come later.

Like I said, I may be at the wrong place. I'm in my 50s and the pop charts have no relevance to me. I'm not looking to sell a song to Justin Beiber or One Direction - I wouldn't recognize them on the street or on the wireless. What I want to do is learn to write songs that will stand me in good stead when I sit down at an Open Mic with just my guitar. If I could write a song a tenth as good as John Prine's worst song I'll be a happy camper.

As an aside, aside from the Adele song I recognize none of the other Billboard top ten listed below - but I know all of the 50 year old songs. Heh!

Cheers
Derek

Hi Derek,

welcome to the forum. Your definitely not in the wrong place. We have a few contributors who post acoustic songs and usually get helpful feedback on song structure, lyrics, melody etc.

The bar is were we put the world to rights and discuss any and every topic under the sun. Just like a real bar.

Hope to hear one of your songs soon.

Keith

[diademgrove]

Hi John,

Apart from the Seven Dwarves rock and roll and the Beatles effectively killed the chart careers of all the other 4.

I can see what you mean but the chart today claims a direct link back to the Beatles, Stones, Tamla etc. I didn't hear any conscious link between today's top 10 and the 1930s.

On Youtube the top 2 videos of Andrew Sisters' song had 2.8 million listens. The top 2 videos of Lets Spend the Night Together had nearly 4 million. Doesn't prove much but indicates that the Stones song is more popular with the Youtube generation.

The main point I was making was that the chart in 1967 has a wider variety of musical styles than the billboard top 10. Hendrix is side by side with Cliff Richards and a ballad by Tom Jones. You have folk lite with Morningtown Ride, my first single and something I still play today, and I'm a Believer by the 60s version of a fabricated boy band. In the middle you have a fairly heavy Tamla song. All co-existed together and sold well, in similar amounts which explains their top 10 status.

Hey Joe, Lets Spend the Night Together and Happy Jack have been reissued on album and cd throughout the 70s, 80s and beyond. The artists may have other songs which are more famous but  each of the above is in the collections of millions, including a lot of people under 30.

I agree it is definitely an interesting topic.

Keith

[pompeyjazz]

Ah Keith, brilliant. I do agree there was so much diversity in the sixties. Morningtown ride, the first song I learned the ukulele chords to. Apart (and as well as that) Some classic pop toons many of which are being derived from today. Time moves faster of course but the classics remain imho.

Any other thoughts anyone? 
Pompeyjazz

[Viscount Cramer & His Orchestra]

There weren't many outlets for music in the 60s (no radio 1 until '67) so I suppose everything and anything was mainstream and the chart reflects this.

Even 10 years after that you could hear a pretty rough and quite amateurish (but great!) Adverts song followed by a fantastic classy extravaganza by Earth Wind and Fire.

Maybe the good music goes elsewhere for its listeners.

And yes, I'm gobsmacked that Young Friedmann has only heard of one of those songs which probably reinforces the fact that I am very old and completely out of touch!