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Does everything need to be Wet, wet, wet...?

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adamfarr

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« on: November 04, 2015, 10:25:22 AM »
One of the great things about being here is to learn from those that know and I'm really happy to get production comments. "Needs a little reverb" is one I get a lot. (Though, even I, the newest noob in Newbieville, can name about 6 types of reverb, so it's a bit hard to know where to start: "What would you like for breakfast? An egg please. Um...")

Researching around:

"Whether generated naturally or artificially, reverb has become an essential part of today’s recordings."

"Getting to know the different types of reverbs and how to use them in your productions is an essential part of doing proper mixes."

I get it. The idea is make things more natural sounding (especially if close mic'ed, directly input etc.). And can make things hang together by making them share a space. But this is also confusing - if I want my vocal upfront, is that compatible with putting it into a shared space with the other instruments that I have just carefully separated by panning and EQing? And if reverb makes things sound further back in the space, do I want to do that to my intimate vocal (for example)? And why do most reverb presets sound absolutely terrible to my ears? Is it just a question of the correct quantity? And aren't effects just for covering up defects? And what's an Auk's end anyway?

So should I be thinking about reverb on every single mix...? But different types for different tracks...? And another type for the master to make it all sit together? But reverb on reverb must be even harder to make sound good?

I am sure there are no rules and it's a question of trial and error and experimenting and listening (and not going overboard with it). But I wondered if anyone had any good examples of songs with great use of reverb on them - or ones that are really dry but still good too?

shadowfax

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« Reply #1 on: November 04, 2015, 01:35:46 PM »
I doubt there are many songs out there that don't have delay/reverb of some sort on the vocal, the trick is in the amount of said effect..doesn't have to be very wet..but slightly audible is good IMHO,
for me a good reverb gives a track a bit of a luxury sound..it's not for everyone i know..
but reverb is back..take a listen to Adele's latest steal..an 80's ballad for sure...

a way to keep your vocal up front but also add reverb is to create a stereo vocal track from your mono vocal track, put the stereo track through a doubler with the left detuned -5 and the right at around +5 and send this to a reverb then bring this up to taste around your main vocal..

if you don't have a doubler make 2 more mono tracks from your original vocal and pan left and right, send these to a reverb and bring them up to taste around your main vocal...also helps if you can de tune each of the new vocals a little..one up and one down..

the best bang for buck verb out there IMHO is valhalla vintage verb..only 50 USD..I use it all the time..

good luck.. :)

best, Kevin :)
« Last Edit: November 04, 2015, 01:42:22 PM by shadowfax »
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adamfarr

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« Reply #2 on: November 04, 2015, 02:00:59 PM »
Wow, thanks for that - that's a really specific technique to try...
I'll definitely listen to Adele (for education only in this case, not her best IMHO!)

shadowfax

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« Reply #3 on: November 04, 2015, 05:26:28 PM »
Wow, thanks for that - that's a really specific technique to try...
I'll definitely listen to Adele (for education only in this case, not her best IMHO!)


yeah, I mentioned it only because of the verb..just imagine it without that luxury coating of velvety verb..

the space the song is in is wonderful..
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Boydie

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« Reply #4 on: November 04, 2015, 08:14:59 PM »
Great questions ADAMFARR

I will answer your questions but in a different order to hopefully help you have that "Eureka Moment" that you are so close to as you clearly understand the individual bits but just need a little nudge to link the concepts together

Here goes...

Quote
And what's an Auk's end anyway?

Lets start here

AUX SENDS

An "Auk's end" is actually an "Aux Send"

In a traditional sense you would set up a "Reverb Bus" and then send a bit of signal to this bus from the tracks you want to add reverb to

So what is a "Reverb Bus"?

This is usually a BUS within your DAW where you would add a single reverb FX and set the setting to 100% WET

Then you would use a "send" (sometimes referred to as an "Aux Send") from your track (eg your Vocal) to send some of the signal to the reverb bus

You will then hear the dry signal of your original track along with the bit of signal you have sent to the reverb bus

The more signal you send to the reverb bus the more reverb you will hear

You can then send any other tracks to this same reverb bus by using their sends to add reverb to them as well

The major benefit of using this approach is that you have a single reverb FX running, which achieves 2 things:

1 - The reverb you choose will be consistent across all of the sends (because you are sending them to the same reverb)

2 - You are only running a single instance of your reverb plugin so it will be much lighter on your system resources


This is a great approach for adding the same reverb effect to lots of tracks - bearing in mind you can adjust the amount of reverb by changing the send level so a single reverb can be really versatile

You can add other "FX Busses" and use sends to send part of the track's signal to these - and of course you can use multiple sends from a track to different busses - eg on your vocal you might want to add a send to the "reverb bus", another send to a "delay bus", another send to a different "reverb bus" etc. etc.


TYPES OF FX BUSSES

I have a template saved with the main REVERB and DELAY Busses already set up and ready to send tracks to

I use the following FX busses:

VOX VERB - a medium sized Plate reverb with a Predelay of around 100ms. This gives a bit of a delay to keep the vocal clear before the reverb kicks in

VOX AMBIENT - a small room type reverb (think vocal booth) using a different plugin for a bit of variety

VOX PLATE - a large Plate reverb with a "big space" sound

BIG VERB - a "big space" natural reverb (eg a large hall)

GENERAL AMBIENCE - a large room reverb - eg a live room within a studio

SHORT DELAY - a 1/4 (quarter note) delay that is in sync with the BPM of my track

LONG DELAY - a 2 x delay that is in sync with the BPM of my track

This is my basic palette of FX and I would use sends to send part of the signal of my tracks to these busses

Eg - my lead vocal will often be sent to most of these busses in varying amounts to provide some interest and variation - but I will only use a very little of each to prevent a "mush" of sound

My general rule of thumb is to use the send until I can hear the effect clearly and then back it off a bit


Quote
I get it. The idea is make things more natural sounding (especially if close mic'ed, directly input etc.). And can make things hang together by making them share a space.

Correct - and using a reverb bus is definitely the way to go for this

I use my "GENERAL AMBIENCE" reverb bus for all of the tracks I want to be in the same space (which is sometimes all of them)

However, I will be very careful with the amounts used - and I use the "send level" to control the "front to back" space so something I want to send back will have a higher send level (and therefore more reverb) than something I want "up front"


Quote
But this is also confusing - if I want my vocal upfront, is that compatible with putting it into a shared space with the other instruments that I have just carefully separated by panning and EQing? And if reverb makes things sound further back in the space, do I want to do that to my intimate vocal (for example)?

In this case I would add a light amount of my "VOX VERB" bus - the key to the reverb I have set up here is the predelay setting. I want there to be a slight delay between the "dry vocal" and the reverb kicking in, which will help keep the vocal clear and intimate but also add some space

I would then add very tiny amounts of the other reverbs to give some "depth" to the vocal but be very careful to maintain the intimacy

The other key to an intimate vocal is COMPRESSION or careful VOLUME AUTOMATION, which will level out the vocal (make the loud bits quieter and the quiet bits louder) enabling you to keep the level up and keep everything "in yer face" - but COMPRESSION is a discussion for another day...


Quote
And why do most reverb presets sound absolutely terrible to my ears? Is it just a question of the correct quantity?

Presets are great starting points but it helps to know what you are trying to achieve with the reverb first, which will help you choose the right preset

The correct quantity is key - if you can clearly hear the effect you have probably added too much

Another good general measure is to set your FX send levels so you can't clearly hear them in the mix and then hit stop - if you can then hear the reverb/delay tails you have a good general level


Quote
And aren't effects just for covering up defects?

NO NO NO - NEVER!

A surefire "rookie error" with mixing is to hide behind FX - eg "I am not a very good singer so I have added loads of reverb"!

I can't play guitar very well so I will add lots of delay

This will just be a bad vocal with lots of reverb or a bad guitar solo with double the mistakes!


Quote
So should I be thinking about reverb on every single mix...? But different types for different tracks...?

As a general rule I would say yes - but small amounts

I have listed the different types I use above

I personally like the idea of having a single "GENERAL AMBIENCE" bus that you send a bit of everything to to put everything in the same space


Quote
And another type for the master to make it all sit together?

If you have used reverb correctly your shouldn't need much (or any) reverb in the mastering


Quote
But reverb on reverb must be even harder to make sound good?

Not if you are careful

I like the sound of lots of different reverbs on a track - especially a lead vocal - as it adds a bit of depth and interest

The key is to use just enough and not too much

The other advantage of using a reverb bus is you can also use other FX on the reverb bus - eg you could use an EQ to add a High Pass Filter so you don't add reverb to the bass frequencies to keep the mix clearer - especially if you have lots of instruments in the mix


Quote
I am sure there are no rules and it's a question of trial and error and experimenting and listening (and not going overboard with it). But I wondered if anyone had any good examples of songs with great use of reverb on them - or ones that are really dry but still good too?

Correct - but I hope the above gives you some general pointers


AUTOMATING SEND LEVELS

I would use the above as a good starting point to get a good "static mix" (ie a mix where everything stays the same throughout) but there is another key advantage of using FX Busses and Aux Sends as most DAWs will allow you to automate the send level

This allows you to get a bit more creative:

Eg:

 - you could drastically increase the send level to a reverb bus at the end of a word to get that "falling off a cliff" effect

 - you could drastically increase the send level to a delay bus on certain words (eg the last word in a phrase) to get only some words to have delays. This can give the impression of a track having more FX than it actually has

- you could increase the amount of reverb in the chorus sections to make the song sound "bigger" for these sections

etc. etc. etc.


USING TRACK EFFECTS

The other approach to using FX Busses is to insert the FX into the track itself instead

This is really useful if you want to add a "special effect" to a particular track - eg a more "whacky" reverb or other FX such a distortion, flanging, phasing etc.

You can also mix 'n' match - eg add a weird reverb to a track (eg a "reverse reverb") but still add a send on this track to the GENERAL AMBIENCE bus to put it into the same space as your other tracks



I hope this answers your questions and gives you some ideas to try out

This thread might also help you understand a little more as I give a few different examples of how to use reverb using a "real world" space example and how you can layer reverbs using track FX and "aux sends":

http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/recording/confused-by-reverb/msg66502/#msg66502  

If you have any questions on any of the above just add it here
« Last Edit: November 04, 2015, 08:36:59 PM by Boydie »
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Neil C

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« Reply #5 on: November 04, 2015, 08:32:39 PM »
Adam, great advice from the guys. I tend to insert specific reverb/delay on vocals, and certainly different feel in BV's. Don't put it on bass, make a decision about how dry or live I want the drums to sound and some on guitars. I'd also think about the type of music you're aiming for, difference era's and genres require difference approaches. Do you want it to sound like it's all recorded live or are you going for a specific sound. 'Dry' vocals sound really immediate and in your face. I'd try out some different things out and see what you like. A fairly dry lead vocal with a heavily reverted harmony is an interesting sound.
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adamfarr

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« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2015, 07:29:14 AM »
Wow - may I say I'm glad I asked the question?!

Boydie - that's the clearest and most usable explanation I have seen related to any of this. (You really should get that book published!) Thanks for not only taking the time to explain the concepts but also for including practical real-life examples - that's so generous when they must have taken so much time and effort to work out for yourself. I feel like I've made a leap forward just with that and am starting off from a much better place.

Neil and Kevin - really great input as well - it really helps when we are sitting on our own behind a PC... This stuff is really not that intuitive.

One thing: if I'm applying my Vox verb just to a single vocal track I guess there isn't a huge benefit in using the send and a similar result is achieved from inserting the effect on that track (except if wanting to EQ etc. just the effect)? However, having these things templated out in order to be able to use them in different doses as needed seems like a super practical facility to have.

Boydie

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« Reply #7 on: November 05, 2015, 08:10:22 AM »

My pleasure and I am glad it has helped

Quote
One thing: if I'm applying my Vox verb just to a single vocal track I guess there isn't a huge benefit in using the send and a similar result is achieved from inserting the effect on that track (except if wanting to EQ etc. just the effect)? However, having these things templated out in order to be able to use them in different doses as needed seems like a super practical facility to have.

This thinking shows that you are starting to get your head around it - yay!!!

In this scenario you can do either - use a "track effect" or a "reverb bus"

You can probably also save "track effects" as part of a template so you could save your "go to" vocal reverb within the vocal track in your DAW

My own personal preference would be to use FX Busses for all of my "go to" reverb and delays (as shown above)

The reason I like this approach is that I do my "tracking" (posh word for "recording") completely dry - so my template has all of the FX Busses set up but I DO NOT save any of the sends within the template

This means that everything is there ready to use but nothing is actually being sent to the FX Busses

This enables me to ensure I always add the right amount of reverb / delay to the FX Busses to suit each individual track / song - but I don't have to go hunting for the right types of reverb and delay

I then save the "track FX" for the more creative FX - eg I might want a different type of reverb or delay on a particular track, but I still have the option of using a send as well to apply my "GENERAL AMBIENCE" reverb as well to subtly put this track in the same space

If you save your vocal reverb as a "track effect" you need to decide whether to save it in its "on or off" state - leaving it on may cloud your mixing judgement as you may get used to it

If you leave it off you need to turn it on when mixing and then dial in the wet/dry mix of reverb within the plugin, which means opening another window and twiddling

If it is an effect you are likely to add frequently (in my case multiple types of reverbs and 2 types of delay) it is soooo much easier to know they are there ready to go - just add a send and dial in the amount of the FX you want


Templates are AWESOME as you only need to set things up once and you can always improve them as you go along

When I open my template all of my FX busses are set up, my different tracks are set up and grouped (and colour coded), they are all routed to appropriate busses, my virtual drums are all set to different tracks, my "go to" softsynths are already loaded, my master bus is set up etc. etc.

I am planning to do some YouTube videos on this stuff so "set up, routing, and templates" seems to be a good place to start so I might start planning my first one using the same concept as my book idea - explain everything in "plain English" and assume the reader/watcher has zero prior knowledge (as most books I have read jump straight in to the technical jargon!!)

I use SONAR PLATINUM as my DAW and the latest update has added a whole range of routing possibilities so I am just about to revisit my own template and set everything up again so I can start thinking through my first video at the same time


Once you get your head around busses and sends (also referred to as "routing") you can have all sorts of creative fun - eg side chain compression, adding reverb to your delays, gated reverbs etc. etc.
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MartiMedia

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« Reply #8 on: November 05, 2015, 08:59:36 PM »
Excellent info here thanks all for sharing and esp Boydie for the detailed tips and tricks!
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adamfarr

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« Reply #9 on: November 09, 2015, 11:38:58 AM »
Slight "aha moment" - no-one would mix a song with all tracks panned to the centre, or with no high or low end, so why would we leave everything "flat" without depth when we can vary that with the different reverbs available?

Off to get some templates set up...

Boydie

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« Reply #10 on: November 09, 2015, 03:36:20 PM »
It can helpful to visualize your mixes in "3D":

Left & Right

Pan


Front to Back

Use reverb to add "space & depth"

You can use reverb to create an "ambience" as well as using it to have things "up front" (less reverb) or further away (more reverb)

Compression can also be used to add "front to back" space - a really compressed vocal can, for example, sound very "close" and give the impression of being really dynamic - but as I said before compression is a discussion for another day


Top to Bottom

This is often forgotten but EQ can be used to add a sense of height to your mix

We talk about "lows" and "highs" from a frequency point of view but the ear can often perceive them as vertical highs & lows

Eg is you had a flute sound that you want to float on top of your mix you might cut the lows and add some high end
« Last Edit: November 09, 2015, 11:29:04 PM by Boydie »
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olivergearing

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« Reply #11 on: November 09, 2015, 11:26:44 PM »
Great topic, as someone who has always struggled with Reverb / Delay I will be sure to try these ideas out....

Thanks very much!