[Michael]

I wonder if any of you ever have this problem:

When I write and record songs (instrumental) I obviously listen to them again and again and again in the process and keep changing things until everything sounds fine to me (though I guess one is never 100 % satisfied with one's work).
But once I haven't listenend to the song for a couple of days or so, 4 out of 5 times I get the feeling the song is too slow, could use just a couple more BPMs. (Of course I can't just turn up the tempo as this would mess up all of the recordings.)
Now if I listen to it a couple of times again, I don't notice the apparently slow tempo anymore.
And so on, and so on.

Anybody with similar experiences? Any hints how to avoid this?


[I wasn't sure wether to post this in the Writing or Recording sub-forum, hope it's fine right here]

[anthonyceseri]

I wonder if any of you ever have this problem:

When I write and record songs (instrumental) I obviously listen to them again and again and again in the process and keep changing things until everything sounds fine to me (though I guess one is never 100 % satisfied with one's work).
But once I haven't listenend to the song for a couple of days or so, 4 out of 5 times I get the feeling the song is too slow, could use just a couple more BPMs. (Of course I can't just turn up the tempo as this would mess up all of the recordings.)
Now if I listen to it a couple of times again, I don't notice the apparently slow tempo anymore.
And so on, and so on.

Anybody with similar experiences? Any hints how to avoid this?


[I wasn't sure wether to post this in the Writing or Recording sub-forum, hope it's fine right here]

I'd recommend experimenting with your tempo up front, as soon as you come up with the riff. Make a habit of it, so you automatically do it every time, to see what works best for your song. TRy at least 4 or 5 different tempos...

This might help too... http://www.successforyoursongs.com/past-newsletter-issues/issue-29/

[Boydie]

As a "rule" I try to get all of my songs above 100bpm - so this gives me a "yardstick" of sorts

This is to ensure that they are "radio friendly" as radio stations do not like playing songs under 100bpm - as it can ruin the mood and feel good factor of the station and turn listeners off - literally!

Even my slower songs I try to "pep up" a bit with a double time strum, picking or rhythm pattern to ensure they do not become too "draggy"

Another well known trick is to aim for 120bpm as this is the tempo of the human heart rate when it is "excited" - and it can therefore have a connection and make people want to dance as it kinda resonates - this is why disco is usually around 120bpm


I agree with experimenting with tempo at the ideas stage - and bearing in mind what you have said, and what I have replied with, I would push the tempo to a point where it feels uncomfortable and then come back a bit to find the optimum tempo for your track

[Kafla]

BPM really confuses me

I have songs at 140 bpm and I swear they sound slower than ones at 120 bpm

I have come to my own amateur conclusion that you must establish your drum pattern before you decide on BPM - that way you get the right fit between drums and song

I also always increase the BPM a little from where I think is right - Almost every song I write sounds slower than I want at the end - so I deliberately increase the BPM at the start and it seems to work.

Something else I do before I start a full scale production is to make a quick sketch of the song - basic drums , bass. I then play along with guitar and ascertain the preferred key and BPM. I need to play and sing along with gusto to nail both BPM and key.

After that I will launch into a full scale production.

[Boydie]

BPM really confuses me

I have songs at 140 bpm and I swear they sound slower than ones at 120 bpm

That is a really good point KAFLA

The BPM is very different from the overall feel and groove of a track

I gave a few examples, using some famous ADELE tracks, in a review of one of Aunt Acid's tracks that illustrates this

Here is the thread:

http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/song-reviews/stray-hairs/

My comments are on Page 3

[Kafla]

Read it Boydie - very good points!

[anthonyceseri]

BPM really confuses me

I have songs at 140 bpm and I swear they sound slower than ones at 120 bpm

I have come to my own amateur conclusion that you must establish your drum pattern before you decide on BPM - that way you get the right fit between drums and song

I also always increase the BPM a little from where I think is right - Almost every song I write sounds slower than I want at the end - so I deliberately increase the BPM at the start and it seems to work.

Something else I do before I start a full scale production is to make a quick sketch of the song - basic drums , bass. I then play along with guitar and ascertain the preferred key and BPM. I need to play and sing along with gusto to nail both BPM and key.

After that I will launch into a full scale production.

Good points, here...

[Ramshackles]

If you have your tempo set at 140 BPM and your songs sound slower than those at 120 BPM, it could be because you are playing at half-speed (i.e. 70 BPM) and using two clicks on your tempo track for every beat ??

I generally set up my tempo track and just record e.g. the acoustic guitar part, listening through a couple of times and deciding what tempo changes to make. It's often good to vary the tempo between parts of the song to get a bit of movement and a natural feel too..

[Dutchbeat]

In reaper you can change the tempo of any part at any stage, so also of guitar parts or piano played 'live' in one track, without it sounding strange or messed up (and without pitch changes)


that is something that certainly didn't work on my 16 track digital recorder....

but i agree that a song starts to sound slower the longer you worked on it

[The Corsair]

I would like to say that there is a certain aural illusion that makes songs sound weird and slow. I can't remember the causes and the like but it could just be that it's occurring whenever you listen back to your songs.

[HillbillyJim]

BPM really confuses me

I have songs at 140 bpm and I swear they sound slower than ones at 120 bpm

There's a good chance that this is to do with how quickly the chords are changing, which often gets overlooked. There's quite a good explanation here http://www.icce.rug.nl/~soundscapes/DATABASES/AWP/dt.0.shtml in the context of 'Day Tripper' by The Beatles. It bears comparison to something like 'Anarchy in the UK' by The Sex Pistols (both close to ~130 BPM) which you imagine must be quite a bit faster, but if you really listen to it, it's suprisingly slow.  

Likewise something like 'Help!' has a tempo ~180 BPM but the chord changes are very slow, so it doesn't feel any faster than something like 'Really Got Me' or 'My Generation' (~140)

[anthonyceseri]

BPM really confuses me

I have songs at 140 bpm and I swear they sound slower than ones at 120 bpm

There's a good chance that this is to do with how quickly the chords are changing, which often gets overlooked. There's quite a good explanation here http://www.icce.rug.nl/~soundscapes/DATABASES/AWP/dt.0.shtml in the context of 'Day Tripper' by The Beatles. It bears comparison to something like 'Anarchy in the UK' by The Sex Pistols (both close to ~130 BPM) which you imagine must be quite a bit faster, but if you really listen to it, it's suprisingly slow.  

Likewise something like 'Help!' has a tempo ~180 BPM but the chord changes are very slow, so it doesn't feel any faster than something like 'Really Got Me' or 'My Generation' (~140)

Great point! good call 

[domstone86]

I try and get my bpm near to the comfortable limit to as fast as it can go without sounding strange. It allows for a shorter track with more happening in a given time. Doesn't work for slower pieces obviously, but for radio friendly, it helps!

[Beat Poet]

If you're stuck for a tempo, I find it's best to drop it down a smidge, rather than to speed it up. Speeding something up is just an easy route out if you're struggling to play the song.

[kirkleblanc]

I kinda feel like your experiencing a "loss of scope" in a sense, I get this same feeling all the time when working on beats in MIDI so it's okay to bump the tempo's. However, with audio it's a bit more difficult to change tempo's without elastic audio resources and skills/time. So I suggest if you take a good long break from working on the track and come back to it with a fresh perspective you might gain more appreciation/ understanding to why you felt comfortable with the tempo's you originally chose. If not sorry, you gotta track everything.