The Songwriter Forum - songwriting reviews, tips and chat
Songwriter Forum => The Bar => Topic started by: GilgaFrank on September 30, 2014, 02:09:20 PM
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Just wanted to vent/brainfart about something that really annoys me in lyrics, the use of "ooh yeahs" and "woah-ohs" as lyrics.
Drives me insane when people do this, use an utterly meaningless phrase as a space filler instead of writing something that moves the song on. Sting, Bruce Springsteen, pretty much any 1980s heavy metal, it's all littered with these hateful things.
People who don't do it - Bob Dylan, Richard Thompson, Joni Mitchell, Paul Simon, Leonard Cohen*. And this man, possibly my favourite lyricist of all time. Might not be to your tastes but there's no sand in the cement.
* apart from Dance me to the end of love but I'll give him that one
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It isn't spacefiller, nor is it a problem. It's people using it as spacefiller that's problem. Like anything else lyrically, it's merit and purpose depends largely on what people are doing with it. Gaslight do it well here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmCBIz8k4Gs#t=170), for example, where it blends well with the oncoming solo and carries out the final verse, Lady Gaga does it just horribly (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVnSV6jvraE) because she likes talking nonsense-French.
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Got to say I agree with you GilgaFrank - this is a real pet hate of mine too. People who write the best lyrics tend not to do this. And every time I hear 'Oh Yeah' in a song, I immediately think of Jon Bon Jovi. And not in a good way. :p
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Is it possible to think of Jon Bon Jovi in a good way?
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Completely disagree!
"Nonsense" words are just as valid a hook as an instrumental solo or a clever lyric if it works in the song (IMHO) - and in most cases they could be classed as "backing vocals"
I do enjoy a bit of JOVI and when you hear a hundred thousand people sing "woah oh - we're half way there" I think they are doing something right!
I can think of examples of "lyrical fillers" for most of the artists you mention (Big Yellow Taxi, Mrs Robinson, the repeating "Hallelujah" is as good as a load of "woah ohs" IMHO)
I think anything that has a rhythmic and melodic element is valid and fair game for inclusion in a song
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I am SO with Boydie on this one.
I think of my voice as another instrument.
I LOVE ooh's and ahhh's as backing.
'Here, there and everywhere' / 'Hey Jude' (Tone - I'm surprised by your dislike of bv's that beautifully pad a song out.
They're the pillow and duvet on the song mattress.
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Yeah, add my voice to Boydie's and Alan's.
I don't think human beings are all that articulate in their daily lives. I know that I'm not - especially away from the considered typing of forum posts... And when we need to express something and our words aren't up to the task, it's going to be a superficially meaningless and probably cliched sound that comes out.
Having said that, I agree with you that there is a form of brainless and, more importantly, emotionless filler that makes its way into tracks because no one could be bothered to think of anything better. And that can get tiresome... But it can be used well, either emotionally or musically, and I wouldn't and don't write it off as an option.
Matt
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I've got to agree here with the later posters.
Yes, as Matt says, we can't always articulate perfectly and a simple 'yeah' or 'yes' can often reinforce a thought.
There's a lot of it in the blues, admittedly often as a substitute for repeating the first line, but can sound great.
And what about all those soul singers....James Brown, Al Green, Mmmmm-Marvin Gaye...who punctuate their performances with some lovely 'filler'.
And, in fact, on its own cement isn't as strong without an appropriate amount of sand....
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Ah, Alan, Matt, Boydie & Cramer, you got me.
I feel I should qualify my position FOR THE RECORD (ha - geddit)
As part of a main vocal, I am not a fan. Actually, I strongly dislike it. But I don't think you can put BV ooohs and aaaaahs into this category. I love a bit of ooohing and aaaahing in support of a melody and lyric.
What I dislike is singers giving it 'woah yeah' as part of the 'lyric'. And while there are countless examples of very successful and otherwise good songs having this element, I don't think you can make the claim that they bring anything to the song that couldn't be delivered by a 'proper' lyric. Therefore, I don't think 'Living on a prayer' forms the basis of a strong argument :p
So ner-ner :D
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I say any sound that the human body can make (except maybe burping. p*king and f*rting) is fair game in the right place in the right song. I've heard (and liked) grunts, cries, ooos, aahs, finger snaps, toe taps, claps, knee slaps, not to mention everything Matt does with his plug-ins ;D ;D
But I do agree if a "whoa or oh yeah" sounds contrived it can hit a sour note for me too.
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I think i have given this example before, so apols if i sound like a broken record (ha....geddit?! ;D )
...but what about the "lie-la-lie"s for the chorus of "the boxer".... They mean absolutely nothing, but who can imagine that song without them now? And that's the WHOLE CHORUS of a lyrically driven (and lyrically brilliant) song....
I think Paul Simon only ever intended them to be place fillers, but probably even he couldn't imagine it any other way now....
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You can't argue a "right or wrong" with opinions...
But I also can't let you off the hook that easy TONE ;D
... I can't see any difference between the use of non-words in LIVING ON A PRAYER than any of the other examples
In fact I would even argue they are MORE important as they help connect the emotion and energy of the song
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haha, ok then ... let me backpedal a little. I posted that after hearing Sting doing a live version of Roxanne where there's a 2 minute break in the song while he just goes ROXXXANNNNE-OH WOAH OH OH ROXXXXANNNNE OH DE DOOBY DOOBY DOO". And I wanted to strangle him.
Points taken about The Boxer. But compared to something like Bob Dylan's It's Alright Ma (I'm Only Bleeding), those lie-la-lies don't really hold up. For me.
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I take your point Boydie, and I was only (half) teasing about the Bon Jovi thing. Maybe for you, it helps you as a listener to connect with the song. But for me, it helps me to be annoyed by the song.
I'm firmly on Gilga's side of the fence here. Paul Simon being possibly the greatest living songwriter, I don't think the chorus to the Boxer is his finest hour. Sounds like an unfinished song to me. The fact that it's highly successful doesn't really have any bearing - just listen to his other hits and I think it's fair to say it would have been just as successful if he'd finished the lyrics.
In fact, I'd be willing to bet that he was put under pressure to record the song before it was finished, rather than choosing to leave it with the placeholder chorus.
Horses for courses eh? But I still maintain that I AM RIGHT ;) :p
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I never thought about it before but I'd agree about The Boxer sounding like a "placeholder" chorus, something to get the chords and melody figured out before writing something permanent. "Na Na Hey Hey Kiss Him Goodbye" would be another example, the writer actually admitted that was all he could think of and yet it's made him a rich man.
Hmm, maybe these people are on to something.
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We are all RIGHT
Nobody can have a "wrong" personal opinion - it is just not as right as mine ;D
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It's my fave bit of the song! Purely because it's just so flippin good to sing along to.
I think you're right that he never intended to leave in the place holder "lyrics" (i saw him talking about it in a doco)..... But i reckon (and i seem to remember he also reckons) that they are part of what makes the song. [edit for the avoidance of doubt: I'm still talking about Paul Simon here]
Anyway, I'm sure there are loads of examples, from virtually every genre, of "good" and "bad" non-verbal lyrics, and for every example you could find plenty of people arguing on both sides of the fence.
For my part, i agree with Boydie that, used right, they can help people connect emotionally. And a big part of that is the singalong factor. Who hasn't drunkenly belted out a rendition of "wo-oah livin on a prayer".....and felt all the better for it too!
I posted that after hearing Sting doing a live version of Roxanne where there's a 2 minute break in the song while he just goes ROXXXANNNNE-OH WOAH OH OH ROXXXXANNNNE OH DE DOOBY DOOBY DOO". And I wanted to strangle him.
I can imagine that would have been blummin annoyin!
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I never thought about it before but I'd agree about The Boxer sounding like a "placeholder" chorus, something to get the chords and melody figured out before writing something permanent. "Na Na Hey Hey Kiss Him Goodbye" would be another example, the writer actually admitted that was all he could think of and yet it's made him a rich man.
Hmm, maybe these people are on to something.
Exactly!
So now we all just have to find a random syllable generator and then give it a killer hook, and we're all rich! ;D
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I don't especially like Bon Jovi but 'livin on a prayer' isn't a bad song and I don't think the Whoa-oh makes it more insufferable.
I do like 'The only living boy in New York' even the 'na-da-na na-da -da na-da da' bit where he couldn't think of anything else to say before he hits the punchline.
I suppose we can forgive those we approve of ( like GilgaFrank does with Leonard Cohen) and slag off those we don't, and where's the harm in that!!? :)
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Just to get the disclaimer in, I'm not the world's biggest Leonard Cohen fan. My mum likes him a lot more than I do. but I do think he writes some very thought provoking lyrics. Perhaps even more so than does Jon Bon Jovi. Whoa-oh.
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I AM ALL FOR A GOOD WOAH-OH OR A RANDOM SHOOBY DOOBY
*bursts into the adorable OHA OHA of video killed the radio star, imagines a world where random vocal interludes don't exist and cries*
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Some lyricists that wouldn't be the same without ohhs, ahhs and assorted nonsense
John Lennon
Smokey Robinson
Lou Reed
Little Richard
Sam Cooke
Otis Redding
Just goes to show, there's music I like and music I don't.
Keith
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I use them,i like them , i think they 'fill' a gap or help create a moment when regular lyrics just won't do!
There's plenty of songs out there that have them and they become a memorable hook.
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So we're all agreed then, they're a bad thing and everyone should stop using them.
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Yup, we're all (uh-huh), we're all agreed, oh yeah... Oh yeah, we're all agreed. Uh-huh.
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Ha ha! Nice one!
And who do we have to thank?
Who put the bomp
In the bomp bah bomp bah bomp?
Who put the ram
In the rama lama ding dong?
Who put the bop
In the bop shoo bop shoo bop?
Who put the dip
In the dip da dip da dip?
Who was that man?
I'd like to shake his hand
He made my baby
Fall in love with me (yeah!!)
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You're all going to hell.
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Blanket dislike of anything musically isn't wise, imo. It restricts yourself. Some things might not sound great where they're used but can be used somewhere else and sound fantastic.
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BUDAPEST new song ooh ooh oooh
cracking song if its done right and used right its right and deserves a place
i've got more problem with fillers like robbie williams
THAT'S A GOOD LINE TO TAKE IT TO THE BRIDGE, the filler of all fillers
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Im a huge Jovi fan, HUUUGEEE ha ha, and i am fully aware they have a lot of critics. so i knew it would be long before i came across a thread that for lack of a better word 'dissed' them. Not that i mind, just letting you all know JOVI ROCK ha:)