The Songwriter Forum - songwriting reviews, tips and chat
Songwriter Forum => The Writing Process => Topic started by: tone on March 17, 2011, 10:25:06 PM
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Have any of you received any tuition in songwriting, read any books or studied in any other way?
I'm interested to know how you came to be songwriters!
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I never had any schooling in songwriting. I guess most people just write songs as it seems like a natural thing to do.
However, on referral, I had a look at the UK Songwriting Competition site and saw that the offer courses in songwriting amongst the prizes. I'd be interested to learn what that entails.
And if there are "rules", are the best songs the ones that break them? If everyone followed the rules, surely music would be boring.
I had a good friend at University who also wrote songs. Sometimes we'd help each other out. Once he suggested we begin writing as song "as though we'd never heard a song before". I think that was excellent advice. It didn't yield anything at the time, but it's an exciting starting point. You should try to create something entirely new.
In any event, the percentage comparison between inspiration and perspiration is probably different for everyone - for instance, "The Thread" was written and recorded in about half an hour. "Trial And Torture" was just that to write - it took 3 drafts over a week.
Oli x
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I taught myself guitar and piano without books and feel much better for it. Having since gone through some "how-to-play" books and known a couple of people who took guitar lessons, I am glad I did it my way. I would not have had the creativity I seem to have by learning from a book. Same with songwriting. I took some chords from a song, changed them around, and hummed over the top. Hundreds of hours later, I appear to be able to write music. It was hard graft and I have never considered myself a natural musician or songwriter. For me it's a craft that I learned by trial, error and putting hours in.
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Yesh, well...
I agree, there's only so much a book can tell you. It helps in regards to structure but that should come naturally. Songwriting books aren't too much of a help in that it is impossible for a book to tell you how to write a song. Nonetheless I have two shelves full of Songwriting books, that I guess I could dip into if I felt stuck. A book I do value highly is my Rhyming Dictionary, although I tend not to use it to write, more to rewrite and edit.
I guess I'm lucky in that melody and lyrics just seem to come to me. Songwriting isn't really a conscious effort for me. The only time I really have to sit down and think about it is when rewriting lyrics. Normally either melody or some lyrical concept just comes when I'm at the piano, or in the shower, or a particular favourite - driving. Have to have a dictaphone in the car at all times.
Also twice I've dreamt a song, and woke up and heard it in its entirety in my head, but I've never been lucky enough to record either of those as I soon forgot. I don't use that as a reliable method.
For me the best source of inspiration is turmoil. I feel blessed for the heartbreak I've had in the past as it has fueled many songs. I feel grateful that when I write a lyric I can usually hear a melody in my head.
Be interesting to note everyone elses techniques!
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Oh yeah, and as for the whole Songwriting Course worth X amount free with the songwriting contest, I'm sure it'll be gash! I'm pretty sure they promised this last year, but I didn't bother using mine, or that other thing they give you is it Broadjam membership. Has anyone else used any of these?
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In any event, the percentage comparison between inspiration and perspiration is probably different for everyone - for instance, "The Thread" was written and recorded in about half an hour. "Trial And Torture" was just that to write - it took 3 drafts over a week.
A week? I once spent a month on just the lyrics to one song. That was a labour of love (and hate) but I do still like the resulting song. :p
I recently 'finished' a song I wrote more than 10 years ago, although to be fair I did think it was already finished until I wrote the new part! :p
But I do think the best songs are the ones that just come to you pretty complete. And of course, they're the nicest to write.
Anyway, back on topic...
Massa, what do you think of the songwriting books you've read? What sorts of topics do they cover?
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I studied for an Advanced Diploma in music, which gave me a great understanding of chord construction/harmony/keys etc. It also helped me to read music a little better. However, I'd been playing for more than 25 years before I took the plunge and put in some serious study. I've got half a dozen songwriting books but don't use them much. I'm curious, just in case there's a secret inside one of them. You never know, they might impart a little gem of knowledge that you can't do without. Mosly, I learned how to write by listening to The Beatles, Paul Simon, Don McLean, Neil Finn, Roddy Frame, Nick Heyward, Lloyd Cole and my favorite writer Paddy McAloon. I'm sure there are many others that have contributed to my understanding but these are the people that have influenced me more than any others!
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On the topic of whether ignorance or experience is the best way to approach songwriting, I often find that trying to write a song in a key with which I am totally unfamiliar helps a great deal.
Fumbling around to find a coherent structure often results in interesting structures. If I stick to keys that I know really well then I tend to fall into habitual and tedious formats. Being lost on the piano (or your instrument of choice) is a great thing. If you don't know where you're going then it doesn't matter which way you go (credit to Lewis Carroll).
Oli x
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Being lost on the piano (or your instrument of choice) is a great thing. If you don't know where you're going then it doesn't matter which way you go (credit to Lewis Carroll).
That's a really great analogy!
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I have never had any songwirting lessons or anything like that. At a young age i was very creative but i didn't like talking to people. So i kept a lot of my problems to myself and i began to write my complications down on a piece of paper. I made some of the words rhyme and i would imagine the kind of melody to the song and sing it in to my recorder. Thats where it all began :)
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i learnt how to songwrite because of peoms, i love peoms, u can put anything in them. i have never had songwriting lessons, never knew you cud till now. i am an artisic child, so i was allways gonna fall in love with music and songwriting
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I like to take things apart, so that I can have a better understanding of how they work. This applies to music too. I love getting to understand the structure and the ingredients of a piece and therefore discovering how the sum of the parts becomes something so perfect in its entirety. I always recognised the importance of 'building' in music... putting phrases and harmonies and counterpoints together, and using different sounds and tempos and atmospheres and sequences to deliver the images that first existed only in your head. I never mastered reading music but I do appreciate and understand its importance. When I recorded my first 'album' (in college I composed and recorded 4 (approx.) ten minute long instrumentals, shaped like classical overtures) a guy actually said to me 'you couldn't possibly have done that if you can't read music or if you haven't had any musical training' to which i replied 'f#ck off you bell end'. Songwriting for me is all about trying different combinations of things until you have something that feels like a competent piece of work.
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'f#ck off you bell end'
I couldn't agree more. Songwriting is all about the ears. You need to understand from an intuitive place how the combination of rhythms, melodies, phrases and harmonies combine to make a song. However you reach this point is irrelevant.
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'You couldn't possibly have done that if you can't read music or if you haven't had any musical training.'
'F#ck off you bell end'
To which the stranger put the multi-million pound recording contract back in his pocket and walked away. ;)
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Not even close, Sonic. Just some chinless in-bred (yes, we get them here in Ireland too) who thought that an oik like me couldn't possess anything as sophisticated as 'talent'.
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Ive never had any songwriting course or read a songwriting book and would be extremely wary of anything that claims to teach songwriting. How can you teach something with no answer?
Ive had piano lessons, and I think just having proper lessons on whatever instruments can certainly help you improve and open your eyes to other possibilities. I self taught myself guitar, mandolin and bass.
I think the most important starting point for writing good songs is an appreciation of good music. And Im talking all music, even if it isnt your preferred genre, being able to appreciate the songwriting and musicianship can help you understand where it comes from. It really irks me when, for example, a hardcore metal fan would dismiss the beatles or 60s music in general as it is not metal and therefore crap. If you talk to most sucessful acts they will all have at least an appreciation of this. (And this applies to all; just using metal as an example).
And taking inspiration from things outside music - books, art etc can all help.
And also being completely obsessive about music in general. I surf countless blogs, play all the time, go to gigs etc etc, all the time listening out for new interesting things, or different ways of doing things.
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Have any of you received any tuition in songwriting, read any books or studied in any other way?
I'm interested to know how you came to be songwriters!
For me, I think I said somewhere else, I never really consider myself a songwriter, but then Ive completed so many now, that I think its time to adjust that self discription!
As for learning, I just did it. Alot of ideas come to me either musical ones, or lyrical ones, and I think the first few times are about experiencing how you manage to put it together. You learn from that and repeat the process. Until it becomes a case of knowing how you put a tune together, what steps need to be done etc.
Ive been around a few decent songwriters too - one of my friends is a writer for Robbie Williams among others, and I got to work with him on a few occasions, and gained a bit of "calm" about it by working with him, but there was no formal training per se.
I think the main thing for me is to just do it, and keep doing it. Some people learn in different ways, but I tend to find if I focus on books or courses I don't really write, I nail down techniques. Which is not a BAD thing in any way, all that stuff is useful. I just think when it comes to actually writing a tune it has to be from you. Your own creativity as it were, which will always go back to what you can actually accomplish or are comfortable doing. Techniques are things you pick up on the way that will become natural at some point, but the actual process of writing a song doesnt change that much.
So I guess my only answer is, just by doing it until Im happy with it!
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The moment you 'learn' how to write lyrics is the moment you stop writing lyrics. If someone tries to teach you then you'll end up writing their songs all over again.
Some people can't write lyrics so if you can't find a way of making them happen naturally then you just can't write lyrics. It's like how some people can excell at any sport they try and some people can cook a spectacular dish from scraps
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Depends how you define learning. Lots of people learn how to write songs just by doing it. Most people learn from a combination of listening, mimicking and doing. But if I was given the chance to spend the day chatting about songwriting with Neil Finn, there's no way I'd turn it down, and I'm certain I'd be a better songwriter at the end of the day because I'd learn new things about my craft.
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I'm not entirely sure that I've learnt how to write songs yet, but I sure do write a lot.. well, let me re-phrase that: I start a lot and then occasionally finish them ;)