I can't say I agree with your assertion that writing popular songs are simple- if we are talking popular as in 'hits' then if it was truly that easy surely by now you would have perfected the formula and have written several hits and made millions by now.
Check out the title to this post, a question probably popped into your head "how is it simple?" or for some of you "IT ISN'T SIMPLE" then you came here to leave your input, either way i got a emotional reaction out of both of you to click this link. If you spend time on making the title you can really produce something interesting.
a question probably popped into your head "how is it simple?" or for some of you "IT ISN'T SIMPLE"
Doesn't this just take all the passion - and the joy - and actually, all the honesty - out of songwriting?
It makes it sound very cynical and mercenary, which makes me feel pretty sad!
I may be being naive but I'm willing to bet that no one i admire as a songwriter does it this songwriting-by-numbers way.
I'm not so naive as to think that the marketing part doesn't need to be at least a bit calculated if you're going to achieve some level of popularity....but not the songwriting part.
I'm sure some songwriters must do it the way you described, and do very well out of it, but I feel pretty sure that the songs i love have been written from the heart. And I'm happy to carry on writing that way, whether it brings popularity or not.
Of course that's not to say i don't think other people's opinions are important - otherwise there'd be no point being here on this forum....!
If you know the recipy there are supposed to be successful songs that you've written. Could you give a few examples? It would be fun to see how you apply your own rules.
Cheers,
Bernd
I meant Olie who has started the thread. Otherwise I'd have begun "@Name" or so.
I don't believe in recipes myself. Maybe that's why I have no success to speek of ;-)
Doesn't this just take all the passion - and the joy - and actually, all the honesty - out of songwriting?
It makes it sound very cynical and mercenary, which makes me feel pretty sad!
I may be being naive but I'm willing to bet that no one i admire as a songwriter does it this songwriting-by-numbers way.
I'm not so naive as to think that the marketing part doesn't need to be at least a bit calculated if you're going to achieve some level of popularity....but not the songwriting part.
I'm sure some songwriters must do it the way you described, and do very well out of it, but I feel pretty sure that the songs i love have been written from the heart. And I'm happy to carry on writing that way, whether it brings popularity or not.
Of course that's not to say i don't think other people's opinions are important - otherwise there'd be no point being here on this forum....!
Doesn't this just take all the passion - and the joy - and actually, all the honesty - out of songwriting?
It makes it sound very cynical and mercenary, which makes me feel pretty sad!
I may be being naive but I'm willing to bet that no one i admire as a songwriter does it this songwriting-by-numbers way.
I'm not so naive as to think that the marketing part doesn't need to be at least a bit calculated if you're going to achieve some level of popularity....but not the songwriting part.
I'm sure some songwriters must do it the way you described, and do very well out of it, but I feel pretty sure that the songs i love have been written from the heart. And I'm happy to carry on writing that way, whether it brings popularity or not.
Of course that's not to say i don't think other people's opinions are important - otherwise there'd be no point being here on this forum....!
One question: What's the point of a amazing song if no one hears it?
A question in response.... What's the point of writing an amazing song and then making it not amazing just so that it will be popular? The amazing song still won't get heard.
The point of one is to write an amazing song; the point of the other is to make money and get attention. It depends what your priorities are, but i would rather aim to write something i can be proud of.
Read the rest of it i edited it :P
Read the rest of it i edited it :P
Sorry not sure what you mean... What should i be looking at?... Ta!
Read the rest of it i edited it :P
Sorry not sure what you mean... What should i be looking at?... Ta!
"One question: What's the point of a amazing song if no one hears it?
I feel once you find the rules you can start to jump around them a bit for your own songs. Writing songs from your heart without considering what the listener wants could be argued as being selfish? This isn't really changing what you write it's changing how you write and the tools you have at your disposal, think if you had no way of knowing what words make sentence structure. How would you write at all? That's all this is, a structure to put your songs in.
If you're looking for a success story - the title for this thread seems to be working (and i made it in about 5 seconds). Check out the views and number of responses compared to others keeping in mind the time frame. "
Read the rest of it i edited it :P
Sorry not sure what you mean... What should i be looking at?... Ta!
"One question: What's the point of a amazing song if no one hears it?
I feel once you find the rules you can start to jump around them a bit for your own songs. Writing songs from your heart without considering what the listener wants could be argued as being selfish? This isn't really changing what you write it's changing how you write and the tools you have at your disposal, think if you had no way of knowing what words make sentence structure. How would you write at all? That's all this is, a structure to put your songs in.
If you're looking for a success story - the title for this thread seems to be working (and i made it in about 5 seconds). Check out the views and number of responses compared to others keeping in mind the time frame. "
Just cos I'm posting in this thread doesn't mean you're making any money out of it! ;)
I totally agree that everyone can improve at their songwriting if they aren't too insular and introspective and learn from others' opinions and other successful pieces of writing. It's the writing to a formula bit i object to - especially when the formula is all about being controversial and attention seeking. As if following the formula and forgetting everything that's important to you is somehow a panacea. Maybe we should all be twerking our way to global superstardom ;D
Doesn't this just take all the passion - and the joy - and actually, all the honesty - out of songwriting?
It makes it sound very cynical and mercenary, which makes me feel pretty sad!
I may be being naive but I'm willing to bet that no one i admire as a songwriter does it this songwriting-by-numbers way.
I'm not so naive as to think that the marketing part doesn't need to be at least a bit calculated if you're going to achieve some level of popularity....but not the songwriting part.
I'm sure some songwriters must do it the way you described, and do very well out of it, but I feel pretty sure that the songs i love have been written from the heart. And I'm happy to carry on writing that way, whether it brings popularity or not.
Of course that's not to say i don't think other people's opinions are important - otherwise there'd be no point being here on this forum....!
One question: What's the point of a amazing song if no one hears it?
A question in response.... What's the point of writing an amazing song and then making it not amazing just so that it will be popular? The amazing song still won't get heard.
The point of one is to write an amazing song; the point of the other is to make money and get attention. It depends what your priorities are, but i would rather aim to write something i can be proud of.
IntuitivenessWorst. Rule. Ever.
Use simple words.
(Most popular songs are at a fourth/fifth grade level in reading.)
IntuitivenessWorst. Rule. Ever.
Use simple words.
(Most popular songs are at a fourth/fifth grade level in reading.)
Look at Taylor Swift, just to name one of the incredibly successful and intelligent songwriters out there, she writes very intelligent lyrics that can be appreciated by many, even if they don't understand all the words. They may sometimes even be educational as they can add to their vocabulary from her lyrics- I know I've done this many times with people on the forum, I've seen words I don't know, googled them and added them to my collection. I get that your hook shouldn't be too complex but I'm not going to dumb myself down to make it a 'popular' song.
At the end of the day, who is the biggest pop song audience? Me. My generation are the largest consumer for pop music, we may be young but we're not stupid, we don't need monosyllabic, meaningless lyrics to buy a song.
And anyway, I agree, there should be no RULES for songwriting. Yes you can pass on a few tips, but unless you're Bonnie Mckee and have actually had success, I don't think you should get too arrogant about your writing techniques.
This is a conversation not a scientific investigation, I'm not going to go out and do research, seriously I have better things to do with my life- like writing songs that don't follow your guidelines.
You're already writing to a formula (English language, rhyme schemes, grammar, spelling, how you feel) You just disagree with the formula I'm presenting because being popular now days automatically means your a sell out.
You can look at is as attention seeking or entertainment. Almost everyone hated Mileys twerking but boy we sure do love speaking about it. It's entertaining, of course she could have done more subtle things to slowly amp up her popularity than going balls out but I'm glad she gave me something funny to talk about.
What is attention seeking? Dying your hair, putting on makeup, wearing a new outfit, making a joke to get a laugh, drinking all night knowing you're going to make a scene? We all do it, there are just social norms that some people seem to get a headache about when people break them. Twerking on stage at a award event - bad, grinding against a guy at a club - good? Only difference is the amount of people who see it. Again i think it's all a balancing act.
Actually i didn't mention money, don't start thinking that's all i care about. I look at both sides of the coin and share the side most people are reluctant to accept as a requirement to make it.
You're already writing to a formula (English language, rhyme schemes, grammar, spelling, how you feel) You just disagree with the formula I'm presenting because being popular now days automatically means your a sell out.
You can look at is as attention seeking or entertainment. Almost everyone hated Mileys twerking but boy we sure do love speaking about it. It's entertaining, of course she could have done more subtle things to slowly amp up her popularity than going balls out but I'm glad she gave me something funny to talk about.
What is attention seeking? Dying your hair, putting on makeup, wearing a new outfit, making a joke to get a laugh, drinking all night knowing you're going to make a scene? We all do it, there are just social norms that some people seem to get a headache about when people break them. Twerking on stage at a award event - bad, grinding against a guy at a club - good? Only difference is the amount of people who see it. Again i think it's all a balancing act.
Actually i didn't mention money, don't start thinking that's all i care about. I look at both sides of the coin and share the side most people are reluctant to accept as a requirement to make it.
Writing in English and rhyming isn't a formula for anything other than communicating with English speakers and...rhyming. I don't pretend to be the world's greatest musical innovator, but writing in English with rhymes about feelings still allows for quite a lot of creative freedom, i think?!
So does this!
I don't think a formula like the one you set out is either necessary or sufficient for popularity,Why? Have anything to add?[/color]
and it's just not appealing to me. Nor is behaving like Miley.
Where did i say that was a good idea?!?!
I don't care what she does - the point was, i don't think you have to be doing that to achieve success as a songwriter.
Where did i say that twerking was essential to getting success?
And whilst i don't care what Miley is up to, I'm glad the whole world is not doing the same thing. Just like i don't care whether some people write formulaic songs but I'm glad the whole world is not doing it.
I'm not trying to argue that a formula can't be helpful to someone wanting to write that kind of music and have that kind of career, or even that that's not a legitimate aim. It's just not my aim, and i don't think it's the aim of every successful person.
Sounds like you want to be successful without figuring out how to write popular songs, shooting in the dark much?
This is not intended to shoot you down or dismiss your post. It is an interesting idea. This is just presenting a different opinion.
Well you misread half of what i said soo.. I agree it doesn't shoot down my posts lol.
I love a good debate! ;D
Who doesn't, i feel like i must be speaking Spanish though, no ones understanding what I'm trying to convey.
HEY
I wonder if these two threads should be taken of the lyrics page
for me they have no place here and just clog up the page
thanks
So does this!
Maybe, but it wouldn't allow me to be who i am. It's just not for me.Why? Have anything to add?[/color]
Nope. Like i said, i don't find writing to a formula appealing. Consequently i don't have a formula.
Where did i say that was a good idea?!?!
I don't think i said that you said that. I made reference to the twerking as it seemed relevant to the discussion. She (probably) did that for attention/notoriety, which seems to be analogous to popularity in your argument (please correct me if I'm wrong), which is unappealing to me in the same way as a formula for songwriting is. I was just drawing a comparison. Again, I'm not saying there's no place for it, I'm just saying it's not for me.
Where did i say that twerking was essential to getting success?
Again, i don't think i said that you said that.
Sounds like you want to be successful without figuring out how to write popular songs, shooting in the dark much?
I don't recall saying i want to be successful. But what i do want, in case you're interested, is to write as well as i can and enjoy doing it, and yep, if other people can relate to what i write, that's fantastic. I'm here to learn from other people, absolutely. I'm just saying a formula isn't the way to go for everyone.
Well you misread half of what i said soo.. I agree it doesn't shoot down my posts lol.
I don't think i misread anything; i just think we don't share the same values. Nothing wrong with that.
Like i said I do actually find what you're saying interesting. I just don't agree with everything. I do agree with some stuff though....like getting a balance etc.
You've nothing to apologise for Tone. Had to give him the benefit of the doubt to start with.AHAHAHA nice one :D
Besides, if you'd banned him before we wouldn't have received this revealing lesson in how to be popular ;)
I apologise to all you lovely people for not banning that complete knob the first time he stepped out of line.Thank you tone! Much love :)
Anyway, consider his ass banned for life.
I apologise to all you lovely people for not banning that complete knob the first time he stepped out of line.
Anyway, consider his ass banned for life.
Hee hee :DI apologise to all you lovely people for not banning that complete knob the first time he stepped out of line.
Anyway, consider his ass banned for life.
But he seemed so nice ;D