The Songwriter Forum - songwriting reviews, tips and chat
Songwriter Forum => The Bar => Topic started by: habiTat on March 31, 2013, 10:18:27 AM
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Just an idea, with the forum growing so fast and with a super fast moving reviews board (I posted voting details for the comp yesterday morning and it had fallen off by the evening!) we run the risk of older members seeming to fade and lose interest, and the whole thing becoming vacuous and stale.
What are your thoughts on people volunteering, or being invited to join a Core members group?
We can kind of 'pledge' to maintain the community spirit, welcome new members, get them involved and make them appreciate and embrace what we've got, before it goes. We can make the effort to involve ourselves in collaborations and competitions and generally just help keep the whole thing together.
It's just an idea but Kafla and MOSP have echoed my concerns already.
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Your right that new people seem to be joining thick`n` fast and songs are disappearing off the main`stage`..... not sure how an `inner circle` of members will rectify that...for sure, on any forum peeps that stay around and contribute tend to make the place their own and take a hand in governing it....
Maybe a `what`s new` page...where songs only can be placed.....of course we could all just spend more time looking through the sections and not concentrate on the home page........
I`m all in favour of genre`s being separated , but that means more work for admin.....
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This has come up before and is always a very split discussion
For what its worth here are my views...
"An inner circle"
Although my first reaction to this is that it is a bad idea I think the reasoning behind it is good
I would prefer to see a "membership" type set-up, where the forum has a public and "members only" section
The main review boards remain public but there is a "members only" section to the forum for a more "private" chat
I have loads of info I would be more inclined to share if there was a section not everybody could see - eg publisher leads, "tip sheets" etc.
The decision would be how to you have a criteria for membership
This could be easily figured out - if a public member shows the right approach in posting and reviewing a "mod" invites them to become a full member - which would be a nice reward for being a "good guy/gal" and would encourage them to stay around
Just a thought but I appreciate others would not want/like a "2 tier" system, although I think it is fine as long as it is "open to all" to prevent "cliques" - which are inevitable anyway and currently possible via PM!!!
Reviews Forum
I have made the following suggestion many times before...
I would like to see the review forum split in to "works in progress" and "finished songs"
It does seem a little unfair when the same song gets posted over and over as it is progressing
I also think it would help with the reviews as I would give a "work in progress" a different type of review than a finished song
As it stands I sometimes feel it is tricky giving a review not knowing this - if someone has paid hundreds of pounds to make a demo in a studio they probably dont want to hear that the chorus should be "hookier", whereas a "work in progress" (wip) may be looking for just this type of feedback
I would love to post a barebones song for feedback but I see the current reviews forum as suitable for "finished" songs
People have commented before about the negative impact of "dividing" the forum but I do not think this would happen as I would foresee songs progressing from the "wip" forum into the main "finished song" forum - so it woukd actually get MORE exposure/feedback imho
I actually think it will also help us be more constructive and "coach" those new to songwriting within the "wip" forum
Just my $0.02
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@Boydie
All great ideas, I'm in favour, definitely.
How to implement them though? and is there enough support?
We could ask Tone's opinion, it's his forum after all...
TONE! :o
TONE :D
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i agree with all Boydie says and ever will say
no, seriously
i do 8)
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As a part-time member, here is my €1 worth (or for those in Cyprus, my €0.7 worth). Sorry to throw a spanner in the works, but I don't think the changes discussed are truly workable or necessary.
Although the forum is growing, the "core" membership always remains fairly intact - and the regular posters continue to provide awesome support to both new and existing members.
By creating sections, whether that may be for members vs non-members or demos vs finished songs, I fear that this will create a more cumbersome website requiring much more navigating around - so when I log-in, do I go to the demo section first or do I go to the finished song section? Too many choices (if, when, why, what, how much have you got - sorry, PSB went through my head there....). As such, I would probably then focus on one section rather than another - which means I'm probably missing out on good quality content from that very section.........
The current set-up is fair because recent posts and comments are listed at the top. In order to capture the posts that are falling off the page, then I would encourage all members, to consider not just page 1, but also click onto pages 2, 3 etc to catch-up on older activity. Many of my posts relate to page 2 activity - so this, to me, is natural.
Toodle pip.
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You know it's mental but I find Myself explaining this forum to my friends and family and they are like WTF?
It really means that much to me!
Maybe a simple solution is just to extend the amount of posts every page can hold so that you get longer exposure on page 1 ;D
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Hey guys!
I'm here and hearing your ideas & suggestions. Not sure how I feel just yet, but I'm not against the idea of creating a more exclusive part of the forum for key supporters.
My main concern is twofold: with the best members occupied in the exclusive area, will the rest of the forum suffer as a result - and secondly, it's a lot of work on my part, and I'm really busy at the mo.
Here's a possible solution that I've seen a few other forums adopt. How about a new section(s) of the forum open exclusively to supporters. Supporters pay a nominal subscription fee on a monthly/ annual/ whatever basis, and get a list of benefits that aren't available to non-subscribing members.
If you think there's demand for this, I'll need to change the forum software in order to bring in the kind of features that would make it work. Like I said, it would be a lot of work, but if it's what the forum needs, I'm all ears.
If anyone else has any other suggestions I'm all ears, and as always, happy to consider all ideas.
:)
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I completely agree and support everything Boydie has said. Spot on as far as I'm concerned.
I think the idea of 2 separate "rooms" for unfinished and finished songs is brilliant. It would slow down the turnover of songs which at the moment is crazy. Weeks of work writing and recording a song for it to get maybe a dozen reviews and off the front page in a few days. It's disheartening.
A "works in progress section" would encourage people to review the song, not the production. I sometimes think this should be the song producer's forum rather than a song writing forum because production and arrangement seem more discussed and critiqued than the actual song itself.
I think an inner circle is potentially divisive but I think it could work. I would see it's principle function would be to encourage an improvement in the way people behave on the forum - an incentive to "play the game" so to speak. Posters endlessly commenting on other members reviews of their song to bump it back to the top of the page, people posting a song for comment before they have reviewed even 1 song, one line reviews like "Yeah, pretty good song, quite like it" would all hopefully be reduced.
I'm right behind you Boydie :)
PS I'd be happy to pay a subscription if I was thought of as worthy of membership.
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I actually agree with a lot of what JMACDON is saying and this is definitely a valid opinion of the "other point of view" that came up in previous discussions
I would however add that there already are separate forums that people choose to go to depending on what they fancy posting / reviewing - there are members that I have never interacted with on the lyrics forum as I choose not to review lyrics without hearing them as part of a song
Many members do not post in the production, resources, writing process forums but they are still really valuable to me
A "work in progress" forum would be another area people can choose to post in and or review - and MONTY is spot on when he says this would focus more on the song - especially as feedback may even directly contribute to improving the song, with it being a wip
The main review forum will remain the most popular and I would still anticipate "works in progress" to get posted as finished songs in this forum - where previous reviewers can comment on how it has improve as normal and new reviewers can review the finished song
I think this approach may help cope with the recent influx of new members - which is a great thing and should be encouraged/catered for
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I wouldn't generally be opposed to a "Core" section restricted to... well, to who?
How would that separation of the forum be handled?
I've seen other forums use the number of posts as a prerequisite to enter the "members only" section - which would probably result in people (not all of them of course) spamming the review section with one-liners like "Geat song, nice work!" to get their post-count up.
Another approach would be manual selection by the mods, which sounds like a lot of additional work for them and seems rather abitrary.
Then there's the method TONE suggested, the subscription fee. I think that might actually work best, since most of the people that newly arrive here would not be willing to pay, while the regulars might be happy to.
Then again, that would involve a lot of work on TONE's side...
I am however asking myself... what would be the purpose of this Core section, what would it be used for?
BOYDIE mentioned more private information like publisher leads. I agree that this is stuff you wouldn't want to post in a public space, visible for everyone. But if you really want to keep something secret, there's still the PM system.
Also, I think such a "members only" section would not really address the problem HABITAT originally mentioned, i.e. the flooding of the review section and the fact that single threads are easily lost due to the sheer speed at which the board moves.
As I said, I'm not opposed to the idea itself, but so far I struggle to see its purpose.
The proposal to split the review board into two sections, one for work in progress and one for finished songs, sounds like a really good idea to me.
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Yeah I agree with what Boydie is aiming for
Few questions -
Are we saying finished songs rather than wip just get a ' I listened ' rather than being critical - just thinking if someone says it's finished and then were all like - you need to fix this and that wouldn't they get mad ?
Love the idea of a wip - I feel I need go get songs almost bullet proof before I post them as someone will spot something wrong - I usually send my songs to Paul Vasey and DB.
Speaking of Paul Vasey - he has left the forum but seemingly no mods tried to retain him - surely we should be trying to keep guys like Paul on the forum ?
I also think a minimum post limit to unlock a room or benefits would work - say 200 posts - kick out those that spam that get to 200 - we wouldn't want them anyway
And lastly I would be reticent to pay for the use of this site - I already chat with a lot of you directly by email for more private issues - no offence Tone , you do a wonderful job - just being honest !
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No offence taken Kaf - I didn't set this forum up with the idea I would make money from it. Just trying to reconcile the possible large amount of work to introduce certain features.
Some interesting points being made. Carry on chipping in folks :)
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I have to agree with Kafla re. making it a pay site, money is tight and I wouldn't be able to justify the cost to my OH. This hobby already consumes too much of my time in her opinion :D
I do think that a wip board would help massively though, it would slow the reviews board down and would actually make for very interesting reading, people could give and receive detailed reviews for songs in their early stages. I'd love to hear kaf or Boydie post a rough guitar/vocal track, bare bones stuff, and we could follow the development right through to the finished song on the reviews board.
That may also be a fairly easy solution, not that I know anything about making a forum, but the comps board went up easy enough I think, could it be as simple as adding a new board?
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Nice balanced discussion here, good to see. To quote Ms Mitchell, "I don't know where I stand!" ;D
- As I see it, the main bug bear here is that the board is so busy that songs are flooding the pages. Instead of our songs getting a solid week of rotation where all the regulars can chip in, they drop quickly and that seems unfair. We are more likely to feel bitter towards the fly-by posters because of this. In an IDEAL world, this place should act like a virtual songwriters circle, with an asynchronous delay of upto a week. In these circles, if 8 people turn up, they play a song each and get 7 lots of feedback. Fair as can be! In such a circle, were someone to drop in midway through the session, play a song, take their reviews and leave, such a person wouldn't be let in the next week ;) The trick is making this, or close to this, a reality on the internet; a place of cold hearts and ill manners. The internet is not governed by default by such good manners. Hell, I have admitted on here to slightly abusing Google+ and Tumblr for self promotion. The difference is, they are soulless corporate mechanisms. This place means something to "The core" and is closer to a songwriter's circle than ANYTHING else online.
To lose this place to a spamming board would be saddening
- Dividing the board down to WIP and finished will spread posts, but will one board simply take precedence? Equally, I am happy to review both types of song, and where they sit is irrelevant to me.
- As Kaf mentioned, having a finsihed/WIP will also beg the question of do we critique differently? I tend to post finished songs, but I am happy, willing in fact for people to pick them apart so I take that feedback for FUTURE songs. Other people want to improve existing songs. I did exactly that this week editing a mix that Kaf mentioned was boomy. So ALL help is useful.
- Payment wouldn't bother me if if was a few quid a month (plus mine would be tax deductable , lol!!) HOWEVER - as soon as a payment sub comes in you have the risk, only risk mind, of an elitist subsection...
- I wonder if also the fact that no-one has the time to review everyone drops the intinacy of this place? Until about 3 months ago I was able to find an hour twice a week to catch up and review nearly every song. It made me feel like I had "ticked off" my duties on here, and the feeling of completion was nice, that I has "done my part". Now I would need more time than I have, so the sea of bold text is a little disheartening. Is this simply something we need to get past, as the place grows?
- If the ABOVE is an issue, perhaps a simple approach would be to switch the posting spread from one a week to one a FORTNIGHT. I'll admit this is easy for me to say: I post one a month on average. Now, while this may seem limiting, surely more listens will come of each track this way, and it will encourage longer term commitment? Perhaps (optimism here) by somewhat enforcing newbies to be patient, they'll have a better chance to see what the benefits are of joining in properly?
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I like the idea of the "2 week" post - as long as it also counts for "revisions" of songs
This is how I see the "finished" / wip split:
It is obviously up for discussion but the way I would sse it is that the reviews board would remain pretty much as it is but without the "I wrote this part of a song this morning, what do you think" followed a day later by another separate post saying "I have now added some drums" follwed by another separate post saying "here is the song with a chorus" etc.
When people then try to review there are comments by the op along the lines of "don't worry about ####, that will be fixed in the final mix"
This results in numerous posts, which gets confusing as to which one to review, but when a review is given it is almost dismissed as it is not the finished product
Now, I do not actually see anything "wrong" with doing this and it would be great to hear more of this kind of approach to hear songs develop by different writers but now the reviews forum is busier it seems to make sense to separate the "wip" songs from the "finished" songs
We can still obviously still make the same comments on the "finished" songs (as we know, songs are never finished!) but I feel once you have posted a song in the "finished" forum you shouldn't really need to go back and post loads of revisions
Take the feedback on board (or not) and improve the track for yourself - or go back to the wip forum with it for feedback on revisions, re-writes
For me the "finished" reviews forum should be reserved for your "best shot" at that particular moment in time
Everyone's "best shot" will be different but getting feedback on your best shot will ensure your next best shot will be better etc. etc.
As for the "core group" / membership thing I see this as a totally different issue and there are lots of different approaches and ways to "manage" it
The first step is deciding if this is what people want and THEN looking at how to do it
Getting bogged down in the second step before deciding the first could be a waste of time and energy
Info can be passed via email/PM but the whole point of a "community" is to share and discuss info
If there are people PMing each other with useful info I want to see it!!!
A "private" forum would be more like a group PM, which whilst not ultra secure will prevent the whole t'internet seeing the info and for all of the potential "horror stories" we could dream up it will end up being those that want to be members (the "core") thst would use the members section anyway - "the bar" is open to everyone but only a few (the core?) use it for the community feel - rather than just posting songs for review - so there is already a 2 tier structure when you think about it!
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If you want a more 'exclusive' part of the forum, why not just dip into any of the sub-forums that are not the reviews section though ;D
Seriously though, as someone who probably spends more time in other parts of the forum than most, I can say that the people posting there doesn't change too much.
For all these 'new' members, there activity is generally in the reviews section only. For new members that stick around and join the 'community', you can see that they get more involved in other parts of the forum.
Just look back at who is posting in this thread or any of the previous ones like it..
Or dip into 90% of the 'recording' threads.
I think, short of making it a pay-to-join service (not in favour of that), you will always get people who just want to post there songs on the reviews forum to promote themselves and then clear off...
Splitting the reviews forum into 'works in progress' and 'finished works' could be a good idea
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OK this is great - glad so many of you lot care enough to write at length about how you feel. A couple of points worth mentioning:
If we go down the subscription route, it's not going to effect you lot. You've earned your (lifetime) subscriptions already. For newbs, it would be a case of something like £2 per month or £20 per year.
What do you think of that?
I'm about to edit the guidelines for posting to explicitly specify that there should be no more than one thread per song. If you add drums, post in your original thread ffs :p
I'm still split on the idea of dividing the reviews forum, but happy to take a vote of all those present (all those who miss this thread/ don't bother with it forfeit the right to vote!
I can increase the number of posts per page if you guys think it will help?
:)
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I vote for the wip board.
What would the 'full member' membership offer/provide?
I'm definitely in favour of cementing our regulars and rewarding loyalty though, this main core of people is why I continue to visit, you are a really good bunch :)
Hab..
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im not sure the Forum needs changing that much
i dont think the reviews section should be divided either.
right now we're open to all influences, unfiltered on one board. and thats a plus..
we need to be jolted occasionally, thats how things move along, clashes of style create new shapes and ideas, cross pollination...how d you meet interesting people or thought provoking ideas if you choose beforehand who they are going to be ?
So Im for keeping the review section set up simple. .
Its all about songwriting no matter what genre it is, something moves you or it doesnt.
Right now the chemistry swings this way and that way, but theres a tide.
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couldn't we just make the entering stage for a new member a bit more regulated, so that some more effort should be put in getting started????
So, that people who seriously want to join in are selected in a natural way, because it takes some effort...
For instance, say you have to introduce yourself in the introduction section first before you can even post a song of yourself...(i mean, that it technically doesn't work without at least an introduction post), and even after the introdution e-mail it takes something like a week before one can start to post your own material? Meanwhile the new songwriter can listen and comment on other peoples songs. I think that songwriters that plan to stay the week and really do that without having a song of themselves on the boards, are more likely to really want to join in (as in interact with other songwriters). Chances are that these new songwriters will take some notice in some form of what is going on on the forum in that first week....
I am sure, this will give some natural selection, at the moment people that just finished a song, and are extremely excited about it (which is very understandable, by the way), Google a bit and find this place and directly put their song up for review, but often without being interested in other peoples projects or this forum. People that want to put their song up right away somewhere, anywhere, probably find a week too long....but their is a good chance that the ones that do subscribe and introduce themselves with the intention to wait a week before posting a song themselves will probably look at the forum during that first week, get a feel for the place and the regular posters, and who knows even respond to other people's posts ;D ;D ;D
i have difficulty with people just putting a post up without looking at other posts, and not introducing themselves. I must say, once you have been here a while you get a good feeling on the basis of the first post (without any introduction of who they are), they are usually gone within two weeks after the comments on their song are slowing down (and some of them then turn up after half a year when they have another great song finished, and people who are new don't know that the poster only shows up when a new song is finished, so again the song will get two weeks of comments etc..etc...)
just my two eurocents
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Good thought, DB...
A one week limit before being able to create threads in the review section. Might keep the number of "Hi I'm X and I'd like to give you guys the opportunity to listen to and compliment me on the greatest song ever" - posts down. And everyone who actually wants to get involved would still be welcome.
I don't know anything about forum software and stuff, would a mechanism like this actually be possible to implement into the forum ?
Would be interesting to hear TONE's thoughts on this
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Subs of £2 a month are still fine value, given the immense resources this forum provides.
WIP / Final - I think we are maybe barking up the wrong tree here. We are often reminded by members that reviews and critiques are often about "production techniques" rather than songwriting - so lets have a "songwriting" vs "production" split. I can guarantee none of my posts would be in the production section because that is not my interest. However, I would get much more value from the pure songwriting section.
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How about this..a section for songs submitted by members with 6 months or more on here...and the rest just post in the normal reviews forum ....it`s only regulars that see all this as an issue?
As for making a charge...again £2 per month or £12 for 6, then it becomes free.....would possibly weed out a few less serious types ,whilst remaining fair...
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I'm for splitting the forum into finished and WIP, one thread per song and more posts per page. I'm very happy to pay a subscription as you've outlined. It's great value for money at twice the price.
Thanks Tone for all the work you put in :)
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Lots of ideas emerging now...
All well thought out, it's good to see so many people care.
One way or another I think most people agree the reviews board is running too fast. I know I've already voted for the WIP board but I agree with John, maybe it should be a 'Work in progress/review the song writing itself' board, regardless of recording quality, panning, eq etc, with the main reviews board re-badged 'Finished song/production review' for those more polished, radio ready songs. That way, any newbies or bi-annual (just finished my new song, what do you think?) people can post straight to the 'finished/production critique' section and the members who genuinely want help and advice/critique on the bare bones of a song can have a (hopefully) slower board for that.
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that is very ok with me, but i think 90% will post their songs on the unfinished songs board, because, as Boydie also pointed out, it is hard to tell when a song and production are really finished
but certainly worth a try, i think
no one (except for Michael) for a bit higher treshold for being able to place a first song after signing up? I think you could loose the small group of people who only look for forums and websites to promote /spam their music without any intent to give feedback on other people's work
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maybe it should be a 'Work in progress/review the song writing itself' board, regardless of recording quality, panning, eq etc, with the main reviews board re-badged 'Finished song/production review' for those more polished, radio ready songs
I am not sure this additional "restriction" is needed as I would still want to give and receive feedback on the "production side" on a "wip" - ie comments on mix, arrangement, instrumentation, a bit of compression/eq here and there to improve the overall package
Likewise I would not want to put people off posting "finished" songs that are just their own demos (eg recorded on a mobile phone) if this is their "best shot"
If it is a rough sketch that they intend to improve upon then it goes to the wip forum - if it is their "best shot" for where they are in the songwriting journey then it belongs in the finished forum
However, it is natural that there will be a little overlap but I think things will sort themselves out
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It's great to see so many replies to this thread. But I am still split as to the best way forward.
Obviously, I want to give you guys (& gals?) what you want (not like that :p ) but also you know my default setting is to avoid too many categories for the reasons already outlines in this - and a few other - threads.
I've already increased the number of topics on each page of the reviews forum, and there's room to increase it further if there's demand.
But Boydie makes a good point. Everyone's idea of a finished song/ production is different.
I think my next step should be to properly research what this forum software is capable of, and see if there's a way to reward those that give most to the forum without dividing the community.
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This is a very worthwhile discussion.
The main problem as I see it is the huge increase in song postings causing songs to drop of the page too quickly. The only way I can see to change that is to have less posts.
To split the forum into finshed and wips would at best split the posts more or less evely into the two sections effectively allowing song posts to remain on the page twice as long. This has some deffinate merit on this point alone let alone the benefits in being able to better target the type of feedback the poster is wanting. I would be favour of this.
To have a members section would certainly allow longer standing members to have a slower moving forum but it could provide an issue with a lack of reviews for the new posters and therefore dry up our source for new members. And we always need a supply of new members to replace those that leave. Not so sure about this aspect.
Having a stand down period before song posts are possible could be a good way to 'qualify' new members. It would certainly slow down the posts of new members and we would be assured of getting more committed members.
The solution to our problem may require the implementation of more than one change. There are many good ideas coming forward all with their repective pluses and minuses and I am sure once the feedback has finished there will be some clear directions agreed upon. I also wonder wether if members were required to post a higher review count for each song posted wether that would have an impact and help give us a better quality of member.
As for the pay to join section I have reservations about what that would achieve. I am not against paying, I am just wonder what it would achieve.
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You know everything does settle into an equilibrium over time as some have stated
It really is just new members joining - posting lots of songs ( through eagerness ) and reviewing the songs at the top of the first page ( as they don't know better )
And the user types who post a few songs and clear off
So what I am saying the is that the problem lies here
I think if Tone could impose some tighter restrictions to new members - can't post a new topic until they hit 50 posts and obviously throw out spammers that try to circumvent this rule we may solve 90% of the issue
That way they would also see how the forum works and whether it is for them ;D
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Thanks for keeping this thread going peeps :)
Here's what I think of minimum post counts: spam. With the best will in the world, they lead to more spam, and more work for the mods.
Now I'm happy to appoint more mods, but I'd rather avoid more spam if I can.
But I've come up with this possible solution: A review post format. Fro example, the poster must follow certain guidelines such as stating who wrote the music & lyrics, state of completion, what they're hoping to gain from review (improve song, improve production etc), a full copy of the lyric, and .... whatever else we decide.
Members who can't be bothered to read the guidelines and follow the post format have their post removed without warning or explanation.
Those who do read it will be forced to think more carefully about what to expect from asking for a review, and will be reminded that this is a community designed for mutual support and encouragement, not just pats on the back.
Thoughts?
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Thanks for keeping this thread going peeps :)
Here's what I think of minimum post counts: spam. With the best will in the world, they lead to more spam, and more work for the mods.
Now I'm happy to appoint more mods, but I'd rather avoid more spam if I can.
But I've come up with this possible solution: A review post format. Fro example, the poster must follow certain guidelines such as stating who wrote the music & lyrics, state of completion, what they're hoping to gain from review (improve song, improve production etc), a full copy of the lyric, and .... whatever else we decide.
Members who can't be bothered to read the guidelines and follow the post format have their post removed without warning or explanation.
Those who do read it will be forced to think more carefully about what to expect from asking for a review, and will be reminded that this is a community designed for mutual support and encouragement, not just pats on the back.
Thoughts?
That sounds very sensible, and very reasonable, spammers and non-committed types will soon get fed up if their 'Here is my new song, tell me what you think + link' posts keep getting deleted. Proper, worthwhile members will read the rules and hopefully participate and embrace the community.
It would also be useful to know what people want in a review, so we can listen for any specifics. I find reviewing quite difficult at times, especially when the song quality is high. If the poster wants opinions on arrangement or tempo etc, it would be much easier to focus on those points when listening. If they just purely want 'do you like it? would you buy it?' reviews that would also be nice to know they are after a pat on the back. I'm happy to say I like something if I do. :)
Little Bill works well in enforcing the one per week rule, so this proposal, along with the larger pages you've made could well fix the issue.
I'm in favour :)
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all i am trying to say
and i will try one more time.. :P
give a seven days cooling period to a excited new member who wants to post his or her song right away
that will select the real interested ones from the complete spammers
once you join, you can do everything, except for post your own song, for seven days...
you have to hang in for seven days, and then you get to start posting your own material
that will get rid of almost all the spamming al together
come on guys and galls, listen to old Dutchbeat ;D ;D ;D
for once
and oh, while you are here, vote for Dutchbin, by the way ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Tone,
Sounds like a reasonable idea to me. I'd still like to see a seperate section for works in progress or rough demos with an emphasis on reviewing the song, not the productio/mix/mastering which could be the emphasis in the finished recordings section.
M
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I completely agree with DB's 7 day cooling off period
I think this is an inspired idea that will solve a lot of the "fly by night" posters
I also think the mods/Little Bill could be a little more "pro active" with the regular "takers" that do not contribute (although to fair they may be doing this via PMs)
To say that it will sort itself out by them not getting reviews by not reviewing others does not really stand up now that the place is so busy - it is more difficult to identify the wrong 'uns
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Hi guys,
As a relative noob here, I'm not sure how welcome I am to comment, but I'll add my tuppence worth anyway!
The thing that struck me about this forum initially is the good general vibe from the regular posters. Any good online community will grow naturally, but you do tend to see like minded people making up the bulk of the user base - people who ignore the ground rules don't tend to do well...
Some other forums work on a "post x reviews before posting a song" basis, though they're not ones that I post on so I'm not sure how effective it is - I can imagine that it's probably highly dependent on how involved mods get.
DB's cooling off idea is a good one also, imo.
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I'm not convinced by the cooling off period, despite Dutchbeat being one of my favourite forumites :D
I've 2 reasons for this: first is that some great members have found the forum in the excitement of wanting to share their music. They've headed straight for the reviews board, and I understand.
But more importantly, the current forum software doesn't support automation of anything like this, making it pretty unworkable for the mods...
@monkfish - thanks for chipping in. Everyone is welcome on this thread :)
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So Tone, you would have a opening post be:
SONG NAME: Let me Know (live)
WRITTEN BY: James Nighthawk
RECORDING TYPE: Live recording
FEEDBACK WANTED: General notes on writing. Performance. Quality of ambient recording
GENERAL NOTES: I wrote this song while thinking about....etc ect...
I like this idea. It is clear and will make scanning and replying quicker, AND give an incentive for people to use the place properly, as a forum for growth, encouragement etc.
Note: the setup above is clear and follows your idea, but laying it out as such, inputting the bold coding etc is more than some will bother with. The question is therefore, is there some way of having a submission form that sets out these fields? Then we fill in the five boxes and the above is generated on the post. Thereafter, replies on the thread would be as they are now..
I don't know if this is a simple bit of coding or a nightmare, so apologies if that is one hell of an ask!!
I too disagree with the cooling off period idea (no offence Dutchy, still love ya!!). When I joined I posted day one. It was exciting. Who wants to give a kid a Christmas present only to say they can't open it for 7 days!!
Let's be fair here... all musicians are kids that never grew up 8)
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I think it's getting too complicated.
What about this one simple cast iron rule:
For every review you receive - You must review that person's latest song.
If you get 10 reviews from 10 different people, you must review those 10 people.
Simple.
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I think it's getting too complicated.
What about this one simple cast iron rule:
For every review you receive - You must review that person's latest song.
If you get 10 reviews from 10 different people, you must review those 10 people.
Simple.
some intersting stuff going on in this thread like but i think this is the best way forward i would say, its always nice to get a review even if they not too keen on a song i have put up but listened so be good to hear from those people
at the end of the day we all on here for the same reason to listen to songs and hopefully they'l listen back
i'm not that great with detail when i stick a review up but i love listeneing to peoples songs and i always try and stick as many commments as i can up about the song
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@ Perseverance
I think in many ways this thread is about finding a simple route or two to tweak the forum to make sure it stays in good stead.
Tit for tat makes sense on paper. But it falls flat when someone reviews "Yeah, nce track, like teh gtrs". And then someone like myself who would rather review in depth (when required, obviously). Do I then feel obliged to return this chap's half-assed effort with a similar one?
This is why I am personally weary of ANY rule enforcement. As of now, I scan the boards on a regular basis. I know the lads and ladettes who are of a community spirit. And those that have just flown in for exposure. Newbies that join in are fairly easy to spot, as their names pop up on other review thread, and so I review and welcome them.
OF COURSE: the problem with the above is it risks clique-i-ness. Which I dislike!
This is why there is no simple answer to this.
As other have said, it may be a combination of a few ideas, gently employed, that together keep the forum on track :)
On which note, another point: What happened to the old forum "level" system. We are all buskers again?! A visual nudge to show people that have "ranked up" might help?
I think the discussion here is healthy assuming any decisions are taken carefully. Which Tone is very good at. Knee Jerk is never good!
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@ James Nighthawk
'Tit for tat makes sense on paper. But it falls flat when someone reviews "Yeah, nce track, like teh gtrs".'
I don't think this happens very much at all.
I can't remember anyone leaving that kind of review with my stuff anyway.
Keep it simple say I.
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I think it's getting too complicated.
What about this one simple cast iron rule:
For every review you receive - You must review that person's latest song.
If you get 10 reviews from 10 different people, you must review those 10 people.
Simple.
This seems more complicated than all of the suggestions so far
Who is going to monitor and enforce this rule?
I can't really see the song posters caring that much about counting their reviews and "ratting" on other people that haven't returned the favour
The issue seems to raise its head every couple of months (and I am not sure that was even the original intention of this thread) but on a day to day basis I think most are generally happy with how it goes
The mods would definitely not be able to cross reference and tally the reviews
I do think it is worth throwing in to the pot though
As JN has said the ideal would be a few tweaks here 'n' there - ideally automated within the coding of the forum to take any "subjective" opinions out of the way
The longer front page has already made a huge improvement IMHO so a few more considered tweaks may help
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I don't think it's more complicated than all of the suggestions so far.
It doesn't require any coding although it does require the good will of forum users I suppose.
Any rule is going to have to be enforced/monitored by the mods.
It wouldn't be a case of 'ratting' on anyone.
If you get a review, return the favour basically. If you don't want to return the favour, leave the forum.
That's what I meant by the comment.
It would help reduce fly by night users.
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But the reason this discussion keeps coming up is the lack of good will by forum users
A "cast iron rule" needs to be enforced
It can't be "cast iron" one minute and reliant on good will the next ???
I agree that any rule needs to be enforced by the mods and I also completely agree that the "rules" need to be cast iron
The tricky bit is balancing the rules/policing with the friendliness/goodwill of the forum
It is VERY difficult to achieve and I think TONE does an excellent job of taking all of these differing views into account and coming up with sensible solutions
If you get a review, return the favour basically. If you don't want to return the favour, leave the forum.
The problem is that this is not how it works in reality
Some join the forum, post a song or two, get lots of reviews, not contribute much (if at all), disappear, come back months later, post some songs, get loads of reviews, not contribute much (if at all), disappear - rinse and repeat
In the "olden days" the forum was "tight enough" to ensure that repeat offenders got ignored and eventually disappeared
Now the forum is busier (a good thing) the repeat offenders still get good value from the reviews (eg by newer members) without contributing much to the forum
As I have always said I find this a tricky one as I really enjoy reviewing songs so I don't particularly mind the "wanderers" - everyone can choose who they give reviews to or not so I do not get particularly bothered by the "fly by nighters"
I do enjoy these discussions though as it is great to thrash things out every now and again and if it leads to improvements to this wonderful place then that is great - but I am personally quite relaxed where it ends up
I would be equally happy with a laid back casual forum (where we may lose those that want a more rigid structure) or a rigid structure with cast iron rules (where I think we could lose the more relaxed/casual members)
If I HAD to choose I would go for the cast iron rules so that everyone knows where they stand
We seem to be sailing somewhere between the 2 on this forum, which are potentially dangerous waters IMHO, as discussions like this will keep cropping up causing disruption
However, I think everyone gets more value from the forum than they give so a mass fallout is unlikely, which is why it is such a nice place to "hang out"
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totally agree with Boydie
and sorry to begin about this again....but we (cast in iron) that the forum rules are that new forumites post an introduction e-mail
can respond to verything and any song right away, but are expected only to start posting their own work after they have joined for a week, so that they know a bit about the other members and music etc
so, no difficult technical solution, but just the expectation or rule that you can join in on everything right away, but you cannot start with your first post being your own song, first get a feel for what the forum is about
i am sure that people whose intentions it is to only post their own work will go to other sites where they can have the immidiate gratification of putting there work out to the world
and i am saying this realising i also put my music up in my first post....and i understand people want to do that, we all want our new song to be heard right away, but this was a time when the forum had another speed as far as new posts were concerned. Looking at the forum stats, the number of new topics and the number of post is ten times higher as back then and people were extremely happy when a new song was posted ;D ;D ;D ;D, finally something to comment on... ;D ;D ;D
well, actually very nice to see that is forum is such a huge success....perhaps we old forumites should just be happy with that, but it is hard to keep up with all the new songs and to know who is who
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It is good to see the forum becoming so popular but it feels a little less personal with the sheer amount of posts lately. Amazing.
I joined a few months back and the change is unbelievable.
How on earth have so many people found it? I literally stumbled across it.
It's both good and bad. Good for the newbies who have found it (I count myself amongst them) and a little disconcerting for the long term members who maybe feel that something is being lost.
I think the answer is probably with Dutchbeat.
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Whats needed is to open up another road...not re-shape the whole road system..
Slowing down traffic..will create problems...we just need 2 main review forums..more choice in other words.
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perhaps we old forumites should just be happy with that, but it is hard to keep up with all the new songs and to know who is who
Yeah, well said Donaldboris :D 8) ;) :P
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Hmm so I've had a look around and this forum software that I'm using at the moment is looking more and more like we've outgrown it.
Which poses a bigger problem. Some of the changes I would have made are unworkable without automating them, which means migrating to better software (time & money).
Maybe it's cos I've had the flu, but I even wondered how it would feel to close the forum to new members for a while, just while we figure out what's what - or operate an invitation system, or ask potential newbs to request an invite (telling us/me why they deserve on :p ).
Or we could halve the number of new submissions to the reviews forum by asking that the one song per week rule be extended to one song per fortnight.
I'm wondering if the sudden influx of new blood might also warrant an increase in the number of mods...
Not wishing to act hastily, yet realising something must be done, I await any further comments :)
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I think it's great that the forum's popularity is growing but it does make it rather difficult to keep up.
However, I'll tell y'all what would help me. ;)
Make your songs for review downloadable chaps. 8)
I spend hours sitting in the car on my way back and forward between jobs and this is dead time. If I had a couple of cd's worth of new songs to listen to.............???
Whereas when I'm at home I have lots of things to do. New house has a big garden with a veg patch to get into shape. decorating to be done and I'm still trying to find the time for the "Garage to Studio" conversion, never mind trying to do my own material. All of which has to be squeezed in whilst trying to earn a living. :o
Secondly, I'm not actually very good at reviewing songwriting. Reviewing production I can have a stab after a single listen, but actually "songwriting", I don't really know how to do it. So once again I need to spend time, that could be more profitably for me, be spent doing something else. :(
So, I'll try and get back into the listening and reviewing, 'cause I have been away for a while, but... I'll be doing it on the move. So if I can't download it a review is much less likely.
cheers chaps
Mihkay
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Hmm so I've had a look around and this forum software that I'm using at the moment is looking more and more like we've outgrown it.
Which poses a bigger problem. Some of the changes I would have made are unworkable without automating them, which means migrating to better software (time & money).
Maybe it's cos I've had the flu, but I even wondered how it would feel to close the forum to new members for a while, just while we figure out what's what - or operate an invitation system, or ask potential newbs to request an invite (telling us/me why they deserve on :p ).
Or we could halve the number of new submissions to the reviews forum by asking that the one song per week rule be extended to one song per fortnight.
I'm wondering if the sudden influx of new blood might also warrant an increase in the number of mods...
Not wishing to act hastily, yet realising something must be done, I await any further comments :)
What sort of money are you looking at ? if there's going to be a root and branch change..why not make it a good one...
More boards...links ...genre forums ..not just a single review one...being able to handle the traffic is better than blocking and delaying it.....surely.
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It's not so much the money - I think the licence fee for the software I would like to use is about £100 or less - and it's a one-off fee, so not actually very significant.
What poses the real problem is the time investment. It's going to take a lot of time (time I would otherwise use to do paying, client work).
Maybe I need to team up with another songwriting web-smith...
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I have seen other forums that have gone down the road of splitting genres up and putting them in their own sub directories and it comes with its one set of problems.
We need to acknowledge that although we have a large influx of new members, the majority of the reviews are posted by an ever decreasing percentage of the members. If we split genres then some genres will receive very little in the way of interest and feedback. The current system forces me to listen to music that I would not generally listen to by choice simply because it lies outside my chosen genres. This is good. It widens my musical appreciation and influences e into different directions. I guess if we tread carefully and limit the number of genres sections it may work but I feel the real solution is to qualify the members in some way. A smaller number of quality members is far mar beneficial than a huge numbe of members who contribute little.
I enjoy reviewing music and listening to what people are doing. Absorbing new ideas and learning new techniques and directions but it is at times frustrating to find yourself reviewing dozens of individuals who never have the courtesy to review any of your own work.
I share Tina's frustrations but without the resentment. I am now keeping a spreadsheet of who I review ad who reviews me so that when the board is so busy that I cannot afford the time of reviewing all song postings I can ensure that I at least review those that contribute positively.
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Well there`s a way out of that..time would have to be paid for....
If though a tweak to the site.to help it deal with the increase in recorded songs(which is what this is all about really) why not change collaborations..it doesn`t really do much ...i think collab`s happen in other places anyway...just make it , review forum number 2..for new members and W.I.P. ...?
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I don't think an increase in mods is that necessary.
There isn't too much to mod anyway and you don't want an over-zealous approach to modding where we are chastising people left right and centre just for not posting 100% according to the rules.
Making a request to join could ward off spammers. They needn't say why they want to join, just the mere fact that they have to go through the hassle of waiting to be approved might ward off most spammers.
I still think the first forum people will always want to post in will be reviews, and people always want to get posting their thoughts/songs/ideas as quick as possible, rather than joining in old threads. Doesn't necessarily mean they won't become good members.
It all depends on what you want from the forum.
a) A 'closed' group of a few people to have a chat and review each others work (perhaps you are already there, then dont let anyone else join!)
b) An growing forum that can eventually compete with the biggest/most active forums out there. Perhaps at some point you might want to generate income from it etc etc..
If it's a) then maybe it just as simple as setting a member cap. Then also keeping tabs on inactive members. IF someone is inactive for a couple of weeks, send them an email. If they dont respond within a couple of weeks then they lose their membership and you re-open registration until the member cap is reached again.
If it's b), then there will always be people that use the forum in a different way to your intentions. But then the idea is to adapt and grow with it. Like any big forum/subscription place...gearslutz, facebook, whatever...
If there are a lot of people that just want to post their songs/show off their work/get a clap on the back, then perhaps a sub-forum for people just to post finished works as suggested. No reviews necessary and no obligation to ever look in there ;D
Might open up a new area of people that just want to have a listen to some unsigned music...
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I agree with SF that having sub forums by type/genre would not be a good thing
Thanks to Hab, Monty, JN and others I have actually grown to appreciate, and even like 8), folk music
If there was a "folk" subforum for reviews I probably would never have ventured in!!
There is also the issue of trying to identify the genre
RAMSY is right about choosing the "goal" first and then adapt accordingly - only TONE can answer this one, which may need some careful thought!
For a quick, easy, and cheap fix I think:
Change posting to fortnightly and enforce this as a cast iron rule (may need more mods? - there are enough good people here thst are nkt over zealous but will enforce rules fairly)
Introduce a new WIP Reviws Forum - making sure it sits underneath the reviews forum on the board list (not as a subforum within the reviews forum like the old competitions forum)
Along with the longer "front page" I think this would cope with the influx, especially if "the core" made an extra effort to post ands review in the wip to get it going
I already have stuff I would post in the wip for feedback that is not ready for the proper review board - I am sure there are others in the same boat
The 2 week rule should also apply to the wip forum IMHO
I think this would be a good "quick fix" until a long-term strategic dirction is decided by TONE
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Some peeps are looking at this place from the perspective of a club/song writing circle...when in fact it`s a place to showcase...also the amount of people wanting to showcase is going to increase to the point that even with a 2 week rule/guideline...could still mean 30 songs plus a week being submitted ,and then were back to square one.
Most people have a fairly good idea of the genre of their song...so i can`t see a pop song going into the country/folk section and visa versa..
One or two saying they wouldn`t venture out of their comfort zones if it wasn`t right there in front of them..doesn`t represent the experience of everybody.
But this is all for the future..opening up a second forum for songs seems the most pressing move..i don`t really submit songs ,so i`m not speaking from any selfish point of view ...
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I feel like a broken record but again I agree with everything Boydie says, I think those steps would help a lot, I for one would use the wip board, if I'm honest, due to my limited production skills and eagerness to share new ideas, the wip board would probably become home for most of my material.
A two week limit also sounds good to me.
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Ok
Here's what I think I'll try. One song every 2 weeks, no exceptions. Appoint another couple of mods so the existing team never feel overwhelmed. Rename the reviews forum to something like Feedback on finished songs and create a new board called feedback on works in progress.
Additionally to this, I'll amend the guidelines for posting, asking people to be specific about the feedback they're looking for, tell us about their goals, make the reviewers' lives easier, always post the lyrics in the thread.
I know people mess up occasionally, but this gives us the basis to remove threads when it's clear people haven't bothered to learn about our community first.
Then in a month or 6 weeks time, we'll reconvene and see how it's going?
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Thanks TONE!
It will be interesting to see what effect these changes have
Fingers crossed this is all that is needed but I think it is sensible to have a review in a month or so
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Excellent News! ;D ;D
Great stuff Tone, let's hope these tweaks have the desired effect.
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Sounds good to me.
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sounds good, and to be honest
if these mod functions would be open, i would like to apply
but this will work, Tone
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Sounds like a good start to me. Gives us the opportunity to gauge the impact of these unintrusive changes and be avoid making anything too drastic.
I am sure we are all right behind you on this.
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change for the better is always good to keep this great forum ticking over in good order, good stuff!
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Ah, I've arrived just as the party has finished.
Looking over the discussion (and sorry I wasn't here to contribute, though I don't think I'd have had much to say) I agree wholeheartedly with the end result.
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All sounds good ;D
Looking for a little clarification around WIP and Finished as I am having difficulties getting my head round this
Very simply I would say that a WIP is a basic idea , rough lyrics, chords etc
and Finished means that you dont plan on working on the song further regardless of feedback
Is this correct?
Habi has said that most of his work will go in WIP and this confuses me as most of the stuff you post is to my ears finished - complete lyrics , chords , final vocal take etc
Otherwise whats the point in finished- is it just for professionals i.e. Nighthawk, Boydie, Perseverance
I just want to get my head round this - hope this makes sense ???
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@kafla. Erm yeah, I guess it's open to interpretation, I think you're right in what you say, we do need to make it a bit clearer. I'd regard a lot of my posts as wip because they are often early takes of ideas before I've properly figured out the way it should be sung etc. I like to share the idea in its early stages for opinions and guidance from you guys.
Maybe the finished section should be for that song you're really happy with and will not return to, whereas wip will be for anything that the poster regards as an ongoing project, that they feel needs improvement and assistance.
There will be a certain amount of crossover I guess, when is a song ever finished?
Having a finished songs board should provide space for the less regular members who only appear to post their latest studio production.
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Kafla makes a good point about WIP and finished stuff. I think most of us start with a rough outline on guitar or piano with just a vocal and then work that up to something that is as good as we're going to get it as amateurs. I think everything up to that point would be WIP and then once it's as good as we think we can get it, it goes on the "finished" page. Comments on mixes, flat vocals etc. can be taken on board and sorted by a remix or re-recording a part if the poster realises that something isn't as good as they think they can get it.
I would think that comments on the quality of the song, lyrics, melody etc. would be more appropriate to the WIP section and comments on the production, mix, singing, playing etc. would be more appropriate for the "finished" page.
Just my 2p...........
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I agree that there is a lot of overlap but I think things will "shake themselves out"
For me the "definitions" are:
Work In Progress
The following would be typical WIP posts for me
I have written this chord sequence and melody but it sounds familiar - does anyone know what it is?
I have written the verse and chorus - does it need a bridge?
Here is a vocal and guitar – should I add drums/strings/kazoo?
Here is the song I posted last week and I have now added a bassline?
I have got to this point and I am stuck - anyone fancy a collab to help finish it?
Is this song too long – what should I consider removing?
I have taken on board comments from the "finished reviews" forum and re-worked the song a little - what do you think - better? worse?
Is this song good enough for a commercial pitch? – what do I need to add?
The "Finished Reviews" forums should be reserved for the "best shot" at the track - either following feedback from the WIP forum or your own "finished" song
Everyone's "best shot" will be at a different level and I would certainly not want to see the “finished” reviews forum becoming "elitist" in terms of songwriting or production
e.g. a guitar and vocal could just as easily be one person’s “best shot” and another person’s “work in progress”
This is absolutely fine and by splitting the forums we can give appropriate advice – e.g. in the “finished section” there might be comments such as “this does not work as a guitar & vocal for me because…” whereas in the WIP forum the comment could be “you could consider introducing some strings at 1.42 for the second chorus and some harmonies on the bridge etc.)
I would also like to see “re-works” of songs that were posted in the “finished” forum being re-posted in the WIP forum – with a link to the re-work in the thread pointing to the WIP forum
This will also help slow down traffic in the “finished” reviews section and prevent posts like “here is a song I posted last month and I have remixed it”
I have songs I have changed following feedback but didn’t want to post it to “bump” an older thread – but would love to get feedback and I would also want to hear other people’s tracks re-worked following feedback
For me, the WIP forum is where these should sit
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All sounds good ;D
Looking for a little clarification around WIP and Finished as I am having difficulties getting my head round this
Very simply I would say that a WIP is a basic idea , rough lyrics, chords etc
and Finished means that you dont plan on working on the song further regardless of feedback
Is this correct?
Habi has said that most of his work will go in WIP and this confuses me as most of the stuff you post is to my ears finished - complete lyrics , chords , final vocal take etc
Otherwise whats the point in finished- is it just for professionals i.e. Nighthawk, Boydie, Perseverance
I just want to get my head round this - hope this makes sense ???
Finished: yes, anything you aren't gonna work on anymore
WIP: Everything else. Doesn't matter how 'complete' the production sounds, if you are still working on it, then its not finished :)
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Think this is an excellent idea, looking forward to the new improved forum!