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Songwriter Forum => The Writing Process => Topic started by: ComposerZeus on June 15, 2012, 03:59:03 AM

Title: Why can't musicians tell when their own songs suck?
Post by: ComposerZeus on June 15, 2012, 03:59:03 AM
After giving it some thought I have come to the conclusion that they are only listening to themselves in the song anyway therefore they are biased. (It's the usual me show) Because they like it so much they assume everyone else will like it the same. Sad...

Every time I listen to a local, signed or national artist I always see these 2 common denominators together.

* I can always tell when the melody was written after the music which drastically reduces the note options for melody.

* The song usually always sucks

Here is a music theory experiment I put together on youtube to draw a parallel for you to make your own judgement.



Cheers
Title: Re: Why can't musicians tell when their own songs suck?
Post by: tone on June 15, 2012, 09:40:53 AM
Hey man

Thanks for posting your link. But I'm not sure I agree with you in principle (although in practise of course, there a many examples)

This is my point

Quote
I can always tell when the melody was written after the music which drastically reduces the note options for melody.

Writing the melody after the music doesn't reduce your note options at all in my opinion. A good melody writer will hear the way the music moves and find a good melody to fit it. A good example of this is Paul Simon. When he's writing with a band, he'll work in the studio with them till they come up with a track he likes, which he'll bounce to a CD. He takes it home and starts to work on melody/ lyric ideas.

I see the problem you're referring to as much more of a problem of attitude. If your band comes up with some music, and you just dive in with the first melody/ lyric that pops into your head, it's probably gonna sound crap.

But if you spend a month working on fresh ideas, nuances, lyrics, etc you stand just as good a a chance of having a great song as someone who wrote the melody and music together. The problem is as much laziness as anything, I think.
Title: Re: Why can't musicians tell when their own songs suck?
Post by: Adam on June 15, 2012, 10:21:51 AM
I found your video really interesting. My main issue with your argument is that you seem to be suggesting that the matter of whether or not a song 'sucks' is an objective matter, that is to say that its inherent 'suckiness' (I made that word up) exists independently of listeners' personal tastes or perceptions. And I'm speaking here as a melody fan. Surely by your analysis, the great majority of blues music should 'suck' since its vocal melodies are constrained by chord progressions. Dunno. Just my two pence worth....                       
Title: Re: Why can't musicians tell when their own songs suck?
Post by: LiamDine on June 15, 2012, 03:50:36 PM
Who decides what "sucks", does anything universally"suck"

I'll refer you to this....

if only one man believes the truth, it doesn't mean it isn't true.

Not sure who made you judge, jury and exercutioner?

Maybe the artist who created the music you think "sucks" is imensly proud and happy with it, I dont know why you write songs, but I do it for me, not validation and applause.

Generalization in any situation is always a close minded approach.
Title: Re: Why can't musicians tell when their own songs suck?
Post by: tone on June 15, 2012, 04:22:54 PM
if only one man believes the truth, it doesn't mean it isn't true.

Not sure who made you judge, jury and exercutioner?

Maybe the artist who created the music you think "sucks" is imensly proud and happy with it, I dont know why you write songs, but I do it for me, not validation and applause.

Generalization in any situation is always a close minded approach.
I agree with you Liam, but I don't think your position covers the whole issue. Regardless of how proud a songwriter is of their song, how much hard work went into it etc, it's still possible for it to be a universally-bad song. If you've ever been to an open mic night, you will have heard quite a few of these. Incredibly-earnest performances of the most horrible compositions.

But I don't think the OP has it covered either. It doesn't matter where you start. Your song is part art, part craft, and a massive part hard-graft. That doesn't mean that some songs don't come easily, because they do. What I'm saying is that the best songwriters put in a massive amount of effort and dedication, and they learn the craft thoroughly. Once you've done that, it doesn't matter where you start.
Title: Re: Why can't musicians tell when their own songs suck?
Post by: LiamDine on June 15, 2012, 04:33:07 PM
I agree if your talking about something quite obviously bad, but I honestly think he is talking about produced and released music not open mics amatuers, so someware in that process someone seen something.

And also everyone starts somewhere, im sorry to refernce rap constantly but the difference in "infinite" from "Slim Shady LP" could not be more contrasting.

(sorry if I misunderstood the topic, I can only go on the words not link on my phone)
Title: Re: Why can't musicians tell when their own songs suck?
Post by: The Corsair on June 16, 2012, 02:51:51 AM
I got the sense from the video that he is referring more to the 'open mic amateur' sort of person, given that it's unlikely that a band that has 'made it' would still universally suck.

I do agree, though, that the video perhaps doesn't quite take the right stance on the matter...
Title: Re: Why can't musicians tell when their own songs suck?
Post by: estreet on June 16, 2012, 08:16:16 AM
Whereas I must admit that writing chords and melody separately doesn't work for me at all so I never do it, I don't think you can say that everything written like that sucks. The Smiths used to work by Johnny Marr actually finishing the tracks before Morrissey even heard them...

'This Charming Man'; 'How Soon Is Now'; 'Panic' etc etc. Sucky songs? No No No.
Title: Re: Why can't musicians tell when their own songs suck?
Post by: Binladeda on June 16, 2012, 11:07:12 AM
ahhh.....Am I polishing a turd :)).....The bottom line here is taste.  In my experience once you start worrying whether a piece of music sucks or not you lose creative energy.  Just get it out.  I've seen paintings that I think 'suck' but they sell for millions...go figure:))......It's always nice to get positive feedback on your work but in the end it doesn't really matter as long as you're enjoying the creative process. You can always feel if something you're working on has 'legs'. If other people identify with it, then you're onto a winner:)...if not then you've had fun creating it. It's a win win situation as they say :))                                                       Maybe another topic for this board should be  ' Does anyone have more fun than musicians'..............and don't say porn stars:)))))
Title: Re: Why can't musicians tell when their own songs suck?
Post by: andy5544 on June 16, 2012, 11:44:53 AM
Don't know about others  but  I often ditch songs
Because I think they're starting to suck like a dyson.
Title: Re: Why can't musicians tell when their own songs suck?
Post by: Boydie on June 16, 2012, 11:59:11 AM
Quote
ahhh.....Am I polishing a turd ).....

You can't polish a turd - but you can roll it in glitter  ;)
Title: Re: Why can't musicians tell when their own songs suck?
Post by: Kafla on June 16, 2012, 12:11:08 PM
Well that's 4.37m of my life that I will never get back  ???
Title: Re: Why can't musicians tell when their own songs suck?
Post by: tone on June 16, 2012, 12:28:33 PM
Well that's 4.37m of my life that I will never get back  ???
Hahahaha very well said Kaf :D
Title: Re: Why can't musicians tell when their own songs suck?
Post by: seriousfun on June 22, 2012, 09:12:23 PM
Lets look at the chords A D and E.  Hardly original, I now but thats the point as there are millions of songs with different melodies that use these three chords as their structure. And further more in every instance there will be thousands of songs that use the chords in the same order and number of bars. Melodies, rhthym and lyrics are the things that set each of these songs apart and I can guarantee that the melody wasnt necessarily written first before the writer sat down and pondered for hours over which chords would go with them before have a eureka moment and picking A D E. 
Title: Re: Why can't musicians tell when their own songs suck?
Post by: vibesville on July 15, 2012, 09:32:00 PM
So if I don't agree does that mean I suck and should give up song writing and get a proper job?


;) hmmm
Title: Re: Why can't musicians tell when their own songs suck?
Post by: Hooky Hamza on July 21, 2012, 10:52:11 PM
Oh, i can tell when my song sucks, but that doesn't mean i Bin it......songs can evolve over time, i tend not to get uptight about rushing a song, if i cant finish it i move on or go to sleep, have dinner or go on holiday.......as you can see, i dont worry too much about my song writing.......i,m too long in the tooth for that now...


If Joe Public thinks my song sucks.....so what, they are entitled to there opinion,
If Paul mcCartney thinks my song sucks i would be gutted, but Paul would probably keep it to himself......He knows Better  ;)

Title: Re: Why can't musicians tell when their own songs suck?
Post by: Hooky Hamza on July 22, 2012, 03:21:43 AM
Ps....95% of a good song is usually written in the first ten minutes, the rest is for the producer to construct/destruct...that's what you pay him for.  ;D