The Songwriter Forum - songwriting reviews, tips and chat
Songwriter Forum => The Bar => Topic started by: tone on May 06, 2012, 07:47:31 PM
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Hey all
Following the near-departure of some of the longest-standing members, and some of the best contributors, it's come to my attention that there's a lot of discontent on this forum that I don't get to hear about.
Fear of rocking the boat, or resignation to the idea that I'm incapable of change have played their part it seems.
But I'm not allergic to change - and I don't want members to feel pushed out because they feel I'm not behind them. I can't promise to agree with everyone, but I need a true concensus of your feelings about the way this place is run so I can decide where to go from here.
So for now, forget everything I've said about how I want to run this forum. It's open season on Tone. Please speak clearly and candidly. Post on this thread or PM me - either is fine.
Thank you :)
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Hiya mate,
basically for me it is what I have said on latest postings, I am just getting really pissed off with people that do not integrate, that alone makes a forum just ridiculous. As I have been on here a little while now & I don't regard that as giving me any seniority over anyone!!! the more people that review your work the healthier it is for all!!!
It is a difficult one to sort out & it will have to be a compromise of some sort but anything to improve the situation would be a positive. I am not in favour of any form of ruling with a big stick but a few gentle ground rules would be nice & as has been said, a reminder by the likes of yourself to tow the line if people don't contribute.
Cheers for now!!!
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A while back i was a member of a forum, they had a rule where you had to review at least 3 songs before you posted your own. If they did not, their post was locked with an explanation, often they were given a warning beforehand though. It worked quite well and it was a forum that i learnt how to play guitar and write songs on. But it would be quite time intensive on the mods part.
It sorted out the selfish spammers from the people who wanted to be part of a community.
It changed though and was lost to spammers and all the good members left.
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The forum has worked fine for a long while, longer than I have been on it.
The aggression recently has been unacceptable, It's got to the stage where I am afraid to review anyone as I don't want to be against the 'old guard ' but agree with a lot that the 'old guard ' stand for
This is getting ridiculous - WTF is the 'old guard ' - is this an Internet forum or a secret society
Is this about music or what? MUSIC!
You should be able to review what you like when you like if you like it.
I have enough stress in my life without worrying or justifying what I do on here
There has been an abundance of takers on here recently but a lot of you have let yourselfs down with your aggression - its ugly honest and totally uncalled for
90% of the chat has been about this nonsense instead of the MUSIC!
Have a pop at me if it makes you feel better
Read a thread last night about someone who wrote a song about his mother whohas Alzheimer's and he gets redirected to the forum rules - still cant believe that
Let me say that again - his mother had alzheimers but he should read the guidelines ???
It's went to far
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I am really new to this society. But I have to say I love it. There are a group of really nice people here and they are happy to give their time to help others myself included to improve what they are trying to do which is write some tunes that some other people might like to listen to. Firstly I have to thank Tone for providing that platform. It is a shame that in society there are givers and takers. And on this forum sometimes (in the very limited time I have been here) there have been a few visitors who basically think they are better than anyone else and who post a lot of finished songs and then do not join in with making the forum work and that is sad. But generally I have to say that you all have something really special here. You contributors know who you are and I for one respect and admire your experience and am grateful for the advice and encouragement that you give. Leaving now would make the forum a weaker place and would mean that those selfish few who won’t be here next week will have succeeded all be it inadvertently in ruining a really great forum. I hope that does not happen. Having said all of that Tone - I don’t think it is your fault and I am really sorry you are getting grief because you don’t deserve it. BTB
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My views as stands:
The forum has changed recently. More people than ever, and many don't use it correctly, as per the very balanced and fair terms of usage issued by Tone.
Instead of posting once or twice a month and spending the rest of time involving themselves with other people's songs, they post many times in one week and either don't engage at all or do a few cursory, short reviews to give the appearance of sharing. And yet they DO have time to come back and post on their own threads bumping them up and others down. GRR!
The terms change recently is good. I also offer the following ideas:
-A welcome email sent to all new members explaining clearly but in a friendly manner how to use the forum in a fair and sharing way ;D.
-We can then refer offenders to the terms should they still post without sharing/post too often. Benefit of the doubt to all newbies is only fair!
-A "report" button that alerts Tone to people that are being unsharing. This means that instead of boosting a thread that is taking the piss up to the top of forum, we can quietly report them and let them slide.
-Perhaps if people post more than one song a week Tone can lock and hide the thread, inform the forum member why it has happened, and then it can be unlocked after one week and returned to the forum (I have no idea if this is a coding nightmare, not trying to make work for you Tone!). If this is a pain to code in, the thread could just be removed, the poster informed, and they can then re-enter the post after a week themselves.
-Code in something in the review forum only allowing one new thread a week? If you have just recorded a bunch of new songs, a little patience couldn't hurt surely?
-All the above is for the "Reviews" forum only. I don't think the Lyrics or other sections suffer so much for greedy posters. Correct me if I am wrong :)
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First of all I think we should all remember what it was like when we first posted our songs
We were excited, we wanted the world to hear (and love!) our efforts, we were probably nervous and waited before posting, we felt that sense of exhilaration when we hit the submit button and checked (and rechecked!) the webpage for any feedback - almost immediately!
If we had read the rules we probably knew that we should review and critique other people's songs - but we may have thought “who am I to review ###### they have posted numerous songs and they are all awesome”
It can be intimidating
There have been a few people recently that have been perceived as "takers" that have pissed a few people off - the ones that annoy me are the ones that publish very "polished" final versions of their masterpieces that we should be grateful to have the opportunity to hear!
As for what to do, here is how I would manage it:
1 – review the guidelines and draw out some hard and fast RULES
e.g.
- Only 1 song may be posted per week
- A meaningful review of at least 3 songs must be made for every song posted
2 – I think JAMES’ idea of a welcome email with the rules is a great one
3 – a team of Moderators be selected to “police” the rules – but with a carrot not a stick
By this I mean locking the offenders review thread with something like:
“Hi #####, it appears that you have not reviewed any songs yet. It is a core principle around here to review others before posting songs for review. Please review other members’ songs and I will re-open this thread to allow you to participate fully in the forum. I am sure you will appreciate the reason for this and we look forward to having you as a valuable member of this forum”
The “good uns” will instantly review others and get involved – the bad ones will not receive reviews as their thread will be locked, which will re-establish the sense of “fair play”
The Moderators would then have their own forum to discuss members away from the public forums, which will allow a consistent response – e.g. “does everyone think that ##### is not giving proper reviews, shall I contact them to show them what a review should contain?”
I disagree with KAFLA’s point above as I thought JAMES provided the perfect example of how to deal with a situation like this
JAMES posted a reminder about the guidelines, the poster “got it”, obviously thought about it and then posted an apology - I am sure he will remain a valuable member now he know the score
It doesn’t matter what the content of the song was about, JAMES was polite in letting him know
I do however completely agree with KAFLA that this is all a bit ridiculous when you take a deep breath and strip the emotion away
This is forum is about music and songwriting
Some people are getting carried away and posting without reviewing – as I said in another post this is hardly crime of the century
We should nurture and re-educate these new members, whilst concentrating on the music, as this is how the forum will grow
I am guessing the forum has grown rapidly recently (as I said I am a newbie) so presumably there is a bit of a culture change going on for the “old guard”, moving from an almost exclusive club with limited numbers where everyone knows each other to a much larger entity
This is quite a large change to manage and it is only to be expected that some will not like this change and move on
There is always a danger of “cliques” forming in these situations but I must say I have found everybody welcoming and constructive so I do not see this being an issue in the long-term
For me the establishment of clear rules and the selection of some moderators (especially if they are chosen from the “Old Guard” that understand how the forum works and its values) will fix things
I will support whatever TONE decides as this is by far the best songwriting forum with the best people so whatever happens it is all good!
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Iv'e been asked to participate in this thread and I think it's a good idea that it is no holes barred.
First of all Tone I want to applaud you on ever getting this forum up in the first place. It truly is a great place.
I did go away for a while once and it took me a while to realise how much I love this place and how much I missed it.
I certainly haven't out-grown the forums. I love the place and want nothing more than to be a part of it. I love the people here,
well some of them :P and I love the help and support that they give not only to myself but to everyone. I value these people and their
friendship.
The problem, or at least as I see it, is that there are some members who dissagree with our policy of "give and take".
Now there is nothing wrong with dissagreeing with something, of course. But going pusposefully against the grain of what the majority wants the
forums to be is another matter.
I'll explain: In the past it has worked very well that members who abused the forums by being selfish and contributing nothing, whilst at the same time
looking for help and advice and support, just got ignored eventually when people cottoned on to what they were doing.
Usually they were gently reminded that this was not a fair way to behave and they either took the advice and became much valued members of the forum or they
didn't and dissapeared. This is your way Tone and it is a good way. I really quite admire the way you hand over so much control to the forum members and allow things to evolve.
It says a lot about who you are that you allow that freedom :)
However, although this has worked fine for ages it is beginning to fail.
Why?
Because there's a number of newer members here who don't agree with you or me or Flossie or Nooms or Kaf or DB or Songsmith or James, or Tina...(Sorry if I missed you out :P
There are many more great members than this ) Since they joined they have refused to give any credence to our gripes about this subject. Instead of posting a link to forum rules or
even reminding the "poster" about forum ettiquette, they give a review. They do it because they know it is against the grain of what most of us believe in here. We do remind people not to be selfish... we do encourage people to integrate and give as well as take.
Sjoerd is a persistant repeat offender. He contributes shit to the forums. Only pops his head in when HE wants some attention. That need not be such an issue if he was ignored. People
would be happy to see that someone so selfish is not being given the time that he doesn't deserve. But these guys keep on reviewing regardless of how someone behaves.
This is what is causing friction and why some people are immediately losing their tempers with people like Sjoerd. Before we would all be happy to give a gentle reminder.Now we feel we have to say it more strongly because regardless of how he bahaves he WILL get his reviews.
He won't learn. He won't integrate. He won't give... but he will keep on getting. The old system won't work unless we are all united in our policy of what to do when it is noticed that
a member behaves in this selfish manner.
If we all ignored, then I'm sure everyone would be happy to see selfishness slip down the page and the gentle nudges instead of attacks would return.
If the newer members who seem determined to disrupt this place won't agree to the guidlines and rules that we and you Tone, believe in then I don't really know what they are doing here?
It seems very rude to me, to join a forum and then pretty much immediately go against the grain and what seems to have worked for so very long.
I would love to keep doing it your way Tone because I like your way :) It is just impossible now because only some people are actually following the guidlines and rules.
The only way I can see it working is if people who are known, or discovered to be repeat offenders - In other words they haven't taken the friendly advice of actually joining in and giving as well
as taking but continue to abuse. They've had fair and friendly warning - are either banned OR when it is brought to the attention of yourself by a member of the forums. That their post gets locked, so that the people on here who DO post on these threads and therefore refuse to back the rest of us up in trying to get people to bahave more socially and less selfishly. can't give reviews and therefore undermine the rest of us who try to get this message across.
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@KAFLA
I take that personally and I am quite upset by that!!!
Yes. I politely referred the chap to the forum rules. This was after posting kind and helpful reviews on two of his songs in two days. He was posting too often and had three posts in the top five.
I DID NOT READ HIS POST because of this.
The content of the post was irrelevant to what I was saying - my point stands. And furthermore I was entirely polite and following exactly what Tone had suggested we should do in such circumstances.
AND the poster apologised.
I post almost daily. I post careful and considered reviews. I like this place and the community on here. BUT I am becoming cheesed off by the takers on here. And Now I am being attacked for politely nudging someone towards polite behaviour.
No. Just no.
I am a kind a liberal person. But I understand that any community needs rules otherwise it will fall to pieces. Lets take the police of the street shall we? A few basic rules, enforced with balance and care, make for a better place, physical or virtual.
That is what this thread is about. As the forum grows, and it should grow, it will need to have a its systems tweaked every so often so it doesn't lose the loving community ethos that we all come here for.
This forum may have worked for a long time, but it is clearly in a funny adolescence period right now. A small community can be controlled with kindliness and everyone looking out for each other. A larger community may need stricter controls...
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@Boydie
Thanks for backing me up :) And good points made in general
This IS the best forum of the type out there. I am pretty sure of that. THAT IS WHY we defend it so!
@Schav
STAY!! WEATHER the storm
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There does seem to be a consensus developing
I think JAMES has hit the nail on the head here:
This forum may have worked for a long time, but it is clearly in a funny adolescence period right now
The forum is definitely in its "Kevin & Perry" stage
A bit of strong parenting from TONE will put it all right - there is light at the end of the tunnel (and I am pretty sure it is not another train coming in the other direction!!!)
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hi folks
i would subscribe to this forum which is saying something as i work for the nhs for a bowl of rice and as many biscuits..
i dont hold tone responsible for other folks selfishness, i like the open plan. i hold tone responsible for getting me back on track. I think we need a constant supply of fresh air, keeps things moving along, some of them hang around and get involved, most of them disappear.
its a bit like road rage, screen rage. 'who the phuck do they think they are ? ' has echoed round this flat regular but you ignore them or you go to war and i aint got time for that, waste of energy, means bad karma and all the fun of driving is policed like singapore..and this forum would be a very different place, elitist exclusive and stagnant.
Its a great creative place and for many of us almost a stage, and i value its evolving nature.
Its success could be seen as the problem, immigration, but do we really want border controls.. ?
i try and ignore obvious chancers and they always, always disapear off the radar and bomb some other village..
And lets face it there has been some pretty amazing music from some very driven people that just flew in & flew out and youd be blind if you thought they were going to hang around, the ambition and drive is evident in their text and we have, or i have anyway, benefitted from them, like meeting someone interesting, sod the suit, its whats in their bag, what their ideas are,..
Others are often silly and naive, i'll comment the first time, why not ? and if subsequently they dont embrace a common sense system, ie: normal social ettiquette then i wont comment further, they dont notice me anyway and soon theyre off again...these characters are part of life, we write about these characters everyday because the angles and shapes they throw at us are our inspiration,....bit over the top there.. got carried away...it was going so well...
There is arrogance in bucketloads, especially media stuff, and sadly but naturally its often what propels people to the 'top', gets noticed, gets things done, its a bastard but a fact of life, they exist.
Where would the gallaghers be without it, i quite like Noel but all Liams actually got is attitude, winds me up chronic but theres a good side, most of us arent like him..
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hi, i think i'm one of the offenders by posting a review on sjiords post , i thought it was sorted with him cuz he said he would leave and everyone said no no stay ,so i thought it was ok.
Then there was Florida mikes song , he said he got it then apologised , and has been reviewing everyone else , i think he's a good sort and would be a good forum member now he gets the gist of it . So i apologise and i wasn't trying to go against the grain in any way.
as for rules ,as others have said ,insist on a minimum 3 reviews per post , and it's in all the decent members interest to report offenders .
also you cant post a new song till your last one has dropped of the first page .
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Brilliant, and candid replies so far. Thank you.
Remember, it's open season on Tone, so if you need to discuss other members' behaviour, it's probably best to PM me.
Hope to hear more opinions very soon.
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I agree that the situation of someone joining and posting several songs straight off is annoying - but less so than that of people who have been members a long time but only drop in to promote their own stuff - newcomers can be forgiven. I actually made a fuss about this back in February and Sjorde was one of the people I complained about then - so he obviously took no notice. The saddest downside of all this is that it's the people who are not the guilty parties who are arguing and falling out over it - the offenders usually take no notice or disappear never to be seen again: a few see their mistake and put it right.
I think James' suggestion of a welcome e-mail clearly stating the guidelines is an excellent one. Also, if anyone posts more than one song in a day (or three days or whatever) then the others get removed and they get told why. For now, I say keep the self-policing approach to tardy reviewers - but let people rebuke them if they are posting a lot of their own songs whilst ignoring others. The limit on weekly posting limits will help anyhow - and I can't see that you can really eject a forums members just for not posting often enough.
My suggestion would be to do just those two things and see if things improve - if not, then maybe sterner measures are required.
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Hi everyone,
Well it's a reflection on how wonderful the forum is that so many people feel so passionately about how it is run. I think Tone has created a fabulous place for songwriters to share their music and lyrics and long may it continue.
I think James' idea of a welcome email is brilliant and should get the message across to new members. I remember like Boydie being really nervous about posting and kept checking to see if anyone had posted any feedback. Not a review did I give nor an introduction, I didn't realise the etiquette and I just wanted to see if non-family members ie forum members, thought I was alright or if my songs were shit! I was really unsure about reviewing others' work because I was newbie and what did I know!!! I do think this has a bearing on some newbies postings.
I think the post 3 review idea will lead to pointless/sycophantic/bland reviews that are worthless. Sure you will get the odd long term member who occasionally turns up and disappears having contributed nothing, but sometimes people just need to build up confidence before they fully become part of a forum. I'm still a lurker on the moneysavingexpert one after three years!!! Surely people should be allowed to come and go as they please and not be judged on how frequently they visit?
i joined here and I thought what a friendly warm welcoming site and I don't think we offer that at the moment sadly. Not very helpful Tone I know, but I just don't see why people can't just ignore the persistently selfish- job done! Totally agree with Nooms and Kaf about this.
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Well done Tone for taking this topic to the Bar. I know i'm still a newbie, but i'd like think that we can keep the Reviews forum specifically for reviews and take out our tempers and annoyances in the Bar forum (or the boxing ring LOL).
I personally don't log on very often, simply because I don't have the time. That shouldn't make me a bad member of the forum. I try to log on at the weekends and review as much as I can - I wish I could log on more frequently, but it's not possible because I have work / travel commitments.
This is one of the better songwriting forums that i've come across and I"m very very glad to be part of it. The talented contributors have helped my songwriting enormously - and I really do thank you all. So this forum works, that much is clear.
My gripe is the bitching. Lets keep it to the Bar forum and NOT in the Reviews forum.
Thanks
x
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Oh and by the way I'm definitely into discipline and I'm certainly not a wishy washy liberal! i have firm beliefs and I am quite happy to express them - which I have, keep it pleasant and nice.
This is meant to be fun for god's sake. How are people meant to feel happy and confident enough to review with some authoritarian figure bearing down on them, 'have I reviewed enough' 'have I upset anyone' 'have I posted one or two songs this week' Any nice new members who potentially might have stayed will have gone.
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I'll say I'm in full support of a welcome email as others have described it.
I'm also in favour of the '1 song on the front page at a time' thing too. I'm not sure how viable this is without having dedicated mods.
I agree that 3 forced reviews will result in exactly that, forced out, half-hearted, single-sentence reviews. (We've all done them sometimes but that's generally been because we legitimately don't have much to say that's not already been said but still want to show our support, we still post longer ones at other times).
I honestly think the best thing for this forum would be a few mods. No forum can exist in the long run without expanding the mod team. Tone just isn't able to cover all hours of the day and for that reason would be unable to do all the mod work required.
I'll put myself forward for a mod team if that's the direction we decide to go, I'm a moderator over at Brass Goggles (I'll bring up that forum in a bit...) so I'd be happy to help out here. Even if it's a case of locking a thread and explaining why I'm happy to do that. Believe me when I say 'mod me' keeps the rage curbed, it's a different mentality entirely.
Now I would like to mention Brass Goggles... It's basically the largest Steampunk forum in the world and has hundreds of members. It's not an absolutely huge forum though. There's always people who are coming in and trying to get money off the community to fund some silly project without involving themselves in the forum and other aspects of Steampunk and we have both protocols for dealing with them and have members who will avoid such posts. Now if a forum as large as that can work so cohesively then I'm sure this one can too.
I agree that this forum is going through an 'adolescent' phase and is shaking about because of it but I hope the above example proves that once we are out of this and have 'matured' as a forum then things can be fairly simple and manageable.
My words on the underlying cause of this present turmoil are quite simple. When I joined I posted away, read the rules, realised I should review and went about reviewing until the members felt I deserved to have some reviews posted on my work. I didn't learn enormously quickly but I wasn't slow on the uptake either. That worked because everyone else had the same mentality, that I would have to post some reviews before I would receive some. They were also the majority. With that majority, the new members (in the small numbers they came in) would either learn or leave.
Now, we have just enough people who review indiscriminately that the newbies (who are coming in in larger numbers than when I and most of everyone else here joined) do not learn and we do not quite have enough of the sort who will not review (in order to 'teach' the newbies) to have an impact.
I agree with the solutions I've stated above that others have proposed and, like I said, am more than happy to help moderate this forum to keep it running as smoothly as possible.
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Precisely Corsair. That is precisely what is happening. I too like to hear lots of new people coming, the more the better. I don't want this forums to become static either, just
as anyone esle. But there are enough new members joining all the time, who actually do contribute and do play fair to keep it from ever getting static.
I'm happy to embrace all newcomers who bahave sociably.
I know there are a lot of X factors. Some new members feel shy about reviewing, bit of caution in case you sound silly or people think you are not qualified to critique or whatever. I know that because I went through the same when I first happened upon these forums. I also know that when you first find a place like this, you are so eager to post everything you have because finally there are some people who will listen. I get it. I didn't because I studied the forum for half an hour before I posted to be sure I was doing what everyone else was doing. I was eager to fit into a place in which I was the newcomer. It's called manners.
That's why none of that is what I am talking about.
I am talking about members of this forum who have been here on multiple occassions, have been informed about the forum etiquette, have been spoken to about being more giving instead of only taking and STILL only come for reviews and support. Like Sjoerd.
There is another member who seeing as this is a no holes barred conversation I will name. Mark Longworth. I used to really like Mark a loooong time ago. I enjoyed his energy and he contributed.
For a long time now he only ever comes here to post his own work which from the tone of his posts we should all be so greatful for.
These are the people who abuse these forums and they should be stopped from getting reviews as far as I am concerned.
Yes, the way this forum has policed itself so far has been great but now we have many members. But only a percentage are constantly, day after day, giving their support and help and reviewing.
That number is growing too. So when there is so much, so many people who want to be reviewed, surely people who contribute nothing and yet return time after time for OUR support should not get it.
I like to give my time. I like to support people who deserve it. It's a big thing to enter a forum and aks people to dedicate thier time and thoughts to something you have created. To ask them for an opinion about it and maybe even help and support. That is no small thing! And we are giving it away for free. And that's great but it is being abused.
The newer members are not learning the lesson because we have so many members now that people are posting on them anyway.
I would say it is definately time to evolve, but not in a drastic way. The last thing that anyone would want is the atmosphere that has been dented lately changing. There are some great idea's being thrown out. The welcome email. Maybe some help for Tone with forum mods who can be trusted to gently and politely deal with various forms of forum abuse.
I just don't see how at this moment, with things progressing as they are, how we can continue to let the blatant freeloaders get away with it anymore when there is so many new and sociable members to review and support.
Corsair mentioned the word cohesive, when refering to the other forum he is a member of. By that I take it to mean team work, all being on the same side, solidarity.
If it is the forums desire to promote active membership. If it is the forums desire to promote community and fairness, to encourage people to join in. The surely we should all be singing from the same hymn sheet. Instead some are trying to push people towards to guidlines in the hope they'll work it out. Some people are getting so fed up with it that it's coming to a boiling point. Some people decide the best approach is to go in... give a review and then make a flippant remark about people complaining about the poster beaing a selfish person.
If we want to promote an INTERACTIVE forum, rather than a free song critiqueing service, then we ALL need to show people gently towards the guidlines and we all need to ignore selfish abusers.
Those that don't are undermining all the good efforts the great members of this forum make to integrate people into the place in a less selfish manner.
Oh and Kaf. I love you mate but I dont see how Alzheimers has got anything to do with anything. My dad had to have his leg amputated twice and almost died recently frm septicemia.
He has lots of trouble now walking and suffers a lot of pain. It is so sad to see.
Right from now on I'm only posting on my own songs.
hmmm
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I think that it would be a good idea to implement agreed rules that forum members are in favour of. A welcome email, as suggested by James would be a positive step as it would clearly explain expected forum etiquette to new members. Volunteer moderators would also be of tremendous value depending on whether they can devote sufficient time to the process. I completely understand that many existing members have become extremely frustrated and have decided to strongly express their thoughts re selfish posters. Unfortunately, I think that aggressive posts deter not only new members from joining in but also some existing members too, including myself. I've just spent the last two days caring for my Mam who is suffering with Alzheimer's disease. My two young boys are always wanting to do something different but it's hard to do that when my Mam needs care. Increasingly, I don't want to get involved with forum contributions that could lead to more hassle but I would like to contribute when I able. Instead, I choose take the path of not contributing, maybe use my free time to write or produce. My point is, that we have all got outside commitments to deal with and may decide to abstain from forum contributions if it appears that the forum is becoming an aggressive/ hostile place to visit. I think individual members should be able to devote as much or as little time as they want to forum contributions as long as they adhere to forum guidelines/rules and try to maintain good manners.
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I completely agree Paul and everyone has their own sh!t to deal with - and I know some of us have more than others and I can only begin to imagine what you are dealing with
I think the frustration has come about from the fact that if people have time to write, record, produce, upload, and post their masterpiece they certainly have time to listen to and review a few other people's songs
You are spot on when you say that aggresion is not the way to go and it is a real shame you (and probably others) have not posted songs because of this
I think individual members should be able to devote as much or as little time as they want to forum contributions as long as they adhere to forum guidelines/rules and try to maintain good manners.
+1 to that!
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Guys ,
I have met some brilliant people on here and it's had seriously reinvented my songwriting passion - I can't thank Tone enough for that ;)
But I just cant see this issue going away now and to be honest I can't spend anymore time explaining defending my position and the fun had went right out of the forum - its just not a nice place to be anymore.
The Internets not like real life where you can sit someone down and have a real nice chat and of course explain what you mean.
Anyway I genuinely wish everyone all the best and want to make it clear before I got this is nothing personal against anyone.
Cheers! ;D
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I don't like the way this whole affair has pitched many people against each other. Especially regular contributors that otherwise might get along great. Even more especially when the people you are actually irate at probably haven't glanced at these threads.
I also dont like that in some of the other threads, peoples anger seems not only directed at those not contributing in the right way/at all, but also to those who are not 'regular' or who do not write on here every day. IMO, that is completely unfair.
I dont think '1 song on the front page only' will work. Here is a reason why:
- You have no songs on the front page and you have been reviewing regularly. So you decide to stick a new one up.
- Someone reviews your song and likes it. They do a quick search for more of your stuff and comment on that. Presto, you now have 2 songs on the front page.
I dont know how to solve the problem. People doing their own policing can lead to arguments, etc etc. Especially if the people doing the 'policing' are fairly new themselves.
To be frank aswell, all these threads about it are tiring. This might be viewed as selfish, but I dont come here to tell other people how to act, to read about how they are not acting or to read arguments about etiquette. At the moment, everyone complaining about these people is almost as tiring as the people themselves. But hopefully this thread will be the last of it.
I dont like the idea of a heavily moderated forum either. If you want to see how much a heavily moderated forum sucks, head over to Gearslutz.
So how to make everyone happy? I dont think you will ever completely stop people 'scrounging' off the system, just like in real life. A welcome email could be a good idea though. But that wouldnt stop the kind of 'spammers' the Schav is pointing out, as they have been here a while. I dont think unloading all over their threads in public is good for the forum though.
Maybe 1 or 2 moderators, just to keep all this anger private? I would say that if you have a problem with someone then you pm whoever the mod is. How the mod decides to deal with it should be the end of it. Of course, you need the mod to be a trusted person who isnt going to cause silly arguements or just censor things they dont like.
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I dont think '1 song on the front page only' will work. Here is a reason why:
- You have no songs on the front page and you have been reviewing regularly. So you decide to stick a new one up.
- Someone reviews your song and likes it. They do a quick search for more of your stuff and comment on that. Presto, you now have 2 songs on the front page.
I think you've misunderstood the '1 song on the front page' thing. It means '1 new song' really. Once a song has drifted off the front page you can post a new one (without getting ridiculous) and if a thread of yours gets necroed and ends up back on the front page it doesn't count towards your '1 song on the front page'
It would be up to the moderators to check these songs of course to make sure they had left the front page already, but that's a few clicks of the mouse.
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I have to agree with the RAM ...on this, self policing will only lead to bullying ,arguments.and all sorts of nonsense...
Limiting songs will also fail...you can`t pigeon hole people in this way , with out all becoming messy and complicated.....what if you get 300 regular songwriters who "can post 1 song a week"..it collapses....
For me the best solution are more forums to post songs,we all write different stuff,,,so in theory any one forum won`t get too full,peeps songs stay at the top of the list longer,,,no problems(as far as i can see)
heres a list i just pulled off the net...it does`nt need to be this comprehensive even.
http://musicgenreslist.com/
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well people, till now i've kept myself out of this discussion. not that i have no opinion, but what is wrong and what is right? when you come here for the first time you're way to shy to comment peoples work and wait for what they think about your work first. and maybe you are a little too enthusiastic or even a bit naive and post two or even three songs. that same week. big deal, you'll learn soon enough. but when they tell you to just piss off or worse i think you learn something completely different. and that is that you have to fight for your place in the hierachy here. well thats not really what i want here. i dont even want that in real live. i think like Tone that the real bastards are ready here, in a few weeks and everything was a storm in a glas of water as we use to say in the netherlands.
gr. Dan
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when you come here for the first time you're way to shy to comment peoples work and wait for what they think about your work first. and maybe you are a little too enthusiastic or even a bit naive and post two or even three songs. that same week. big deal, you'll learn soon enough. but when they tell you to just piss off or worse i think you learn something completely different.
The issue there is that what you've stated was true when most of us joined but isn't true now because people are still getting reviews when they contribute nothing and don't learn that lesson we learned. I agree that the aggression is misguided and counter-productive, but simply removing it (which we seem to already be doing) doesn't solve the underlying problem.
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hi kaf
nooms here.
i just read your post this morning and tried to pm you because it sounded like a bell tolling. but i noticed your member file has gone.
I really hope thats not the case. i believe i feel same way as you about stuff.
this whole thing has got out of hand.
you are a cornerstone of the forum, not just for your songs but boundless enthusiasm and honesty and i personally would be very sad to lose your north sea gas..
i hope all this will pass like a nasty virus..and we all learn from it.
dont go mate.
nooms
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i started all this
all i ever wanted to do was make this place a bit better & fairer
i hate the world but i cant change it .....but i just thought i could make a stand for the things i value on here in this little world & now we have world war 3
if kafla has left aswell i cant tell you how upset i am...i am the one who must leave...this is all so awful
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Hold that thought Tina...
Guys, can we please stop jumping ship? We're having this discussion to reach a solution and as far as I'm aware we're actually starting to approach one. It's pointless to leave just because it's a bit difficult right now, just carry on with this discussion and we'll get through it. Leaving only perpetuates the problem for those who stay.
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Hold that thought Tina...
Guys, can we please stop jumping ship? We're having this discussion to reach a solution and as far as I'm aware we're actually starting to approach one. It's pointless to leave just because it's a bit difficult right now, just carry on with this discussion and we'll get through it. Leaving only perpetuates the problem for those who stay.
Yes i agree....it`s all getting a bit daft!...it`s really quite solvable ....
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your not responsible for all this tina, it will pass, if all the good people drop out the forum is dead.
weve all got to calm down and stop reacting as if the martians have landed, they havent.
like kaf, you are brilliant, your committment to writing and this forum is gold dust.
we will all lose if this intangible 'thing' takes over.
stay. we joined the same week and i feel like i know you and the other 'lifers'..
this is breaking me up now..
nooms
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Please guys - take a deep breath and get some PERSPECTIVE
We are talking about how to make an already great forum even better - this is NOT world war 3
Please do not get caught up in the "they left, so I will leave" mentality
Please stop and think about why you joined this forum in the first place,
think about the great feedback you have received,
think about that review you were nervous about giving - when the writer agrees with you and you help them improve,
think about the songs you are yet to write - who will you share them with, will there be a community as good as this one (I had a good look around and I can tell you there isn't ;))
Nobody is "guilty" of anything - we are focussing on how to make the system better
I don't see this as a witch hunt and I only see people being named as examples of issues
The sooner we move on from this the quicker we can get back to reviewing songs - and I have some good ones lined up so I want you guys to stay around and review them for me ;) :P
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Speaking as a newcomer with fresh eyes, I'd say that the ones that are being pedantic and confrontational are those that have gained some kind of comfort as a part of the furniture on here. These people should be reminded that as forum members, we're all equal. By all means say "you should read the rules, you have to do X before you can do X" with a review to follow, so the gentle bit goes along with an actual response.
What I've seen is more along the lines of what I would expect from children when bullying peers. It's really not their place to say what people should be doing.
Another problem is the sheer volume of posts in the lyrics forum. It needs to be separated into more than one section in order to slow down the pace and encourage conversation and rappor building between forum members.
I'd suggest 3 different lyrics sections: Pop/chart style music, Rock/indy/metal style music & Lyrics in progress.
The third would be for people who have a hook or chorus but would nedd some help getting the rest of the words in order.
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Speaking as a newcomer with fresh eyes, I'd say that the ones that are being pedantic and confrontational are those that have gained some kind of comfort as a part of the furniture on here. These people should be reminded that as forum members, we're all equal. By all means say "you should read the rules, you have to do X before you can do X" with a review to follow, so the gentle bit goes along with an actual response.
What I've seen is more along the lines of what I would expect from children when bullying peers. It's really not their place to say what people should be doing.
Another problem is the sheer volume of posts in the lyrics forum. It needs to be separated into more than one section in order to slow down the pace and encourage conversation and rappor building between forum members.
I'd suggest 3 different lyrics sections: Pop/chart style music, Rock/indy/metal style music & Lyrics in progress.
The third would be for people who have a hook or chorus but would nedd some help getting the rest of the words in order.
Hope you`ve got a good tin hat.. :D...
incoming.. :( :P
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i started all this
all i ever wanted to do was make this place a bit better & fairer
i hate the world but i cant change it .....but i just thought i could make a stand for the things i value on here in this little world & now we have world war 3
if kafla has left aswell i cant tell you how upset i am...i am the one who must leave...this is all so awful
This seems to be turning into a mass suicide. I repeat what I said earlier, the ones who are arguing over this are not the people who are the problem so it's all misguided. We may not agree how to handle the issues, but handing over the forum to the chaos isn't the answer. I put it down to the Super full moon. It's certainly making my dog act very strangely.
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Wow.
I cannot believe that people are actually jumping ship because of this thread?! Hold steady people :)
Healthy debate is good and mature, and helps things grow.
We are discussing tweaks to the forum set-up to help it out. That's it! I personally don't like anger or nastiness on any forum and always prefer to use reason and discussion. I thought it was going well here?
A welcome email (glad you all like that idea :)) and limiting each member to one or two songs a week with a bit of coding would probably solve 95% of these issues and get the forum back to solid ground.
James xx
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Wow.
A welcome email (glad you all like that idea :)) and limiting each member to one or two songs a week with a bit of coding would probably solve 95% of these issues and get the forum back to solid ground.
James xx
Agreed - It's got to be worth trying just that and seeing if it gets better. What harm can it do? If it doesn't work then it's a rethink.
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Thanks estreet
I can't believe Tinam and Kafla have gone!
If anyone has their contact details, do email them and try and get them back. Tone can perhaps undelete their profiles, or they could set up new, whatever...
Another idea that has been floated before - Extend page one a little bit. If the forum is getting bigger, allow a bigger front page for reviews. Not sure myself on that one, but wanted to throw it back in the pile.
This is a GREAT forum. People: hold steady for a week or two and in the mean time keep calm and carry on. Review, create, discuss, share... keep everything that is great about this place while Tone considers the tweaks needed to get over this bump in the road
Much Love x
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I am finding some of this quite astonishing!!!
Why on earth are so many people turning "The Sword" on themselves when there is no reason to whatsoever????
As estreet said "the ones who are arguing are not the problem". It has got a touch too personal when there was no need for any of that at all!!!!
As James just mentioned " a good healthy debate is mature " but some people have taken things to heart & have been hurt resulting in premature ship jumping & rash decision making I feel, all very sad & unnecessary.
Surely the best thing is to ride the storm out & hopefully feel a lot healthier for it!!!!
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The more things change,the more they stay the same...
some truth in this ....
Is the forum really in trouble, or is it just that founder members have issues with the changing face of this site..and so are threatening to leave and this is worrying Tone?
If there was a mass clear out..it wouldn`t make any difference in the long run......there seems no shortage of budding musicians out there!!
But in saying all this...i think it should be decided by the more established members...not that were not all equal , but just as a courtesy.
I`ve offered my solution..more forums within the forum to post....forget trying to make peeps comment and all that...i don`t know of any other site that enforces that rule.
Off to tesco now to buy some beer...and write a new song. ;D
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I think everybody has valid points, we just don't agree on everything.
But since we are now at the point that talented songwriters like Kafla, Schavuitje and Tinam, extremely fun people to hang out with in cyber space, are leaving or considering to leave, i think we should perhaps consider to end the discussion for now...
and wish Tone as the ruler of this forum (and the entire songwriting universe) and Cathy as his faithfull moderator, wisdom to decide on which new guidlines or rules could be helpful, and respect those. Give Tone some time to decide what can be changed on the basis of all the arguments that were made here, and let us all respect his decision, so that we can continue this forum and Kafla, Schavuitje and Tinam, and everybody that at the moment may be considering to leave just stay on board. Every forum will have these problems, so there is no other place where it is better. Perhaps we can write a song about selfish posters and have a competition about that.
Anyway this talk about these issues clearly has had an impact on the number of new members joining...if you look at the statistics page, you can see an enormous drop of new members joining, going down from 2000! a month in march (could that be right? ??? it can't be...) to only 72 in April!
if we go on like this, this 'problem' will have 'solved' itself, because then there is no songwriter forum left anymore........ :'(
come on, beautiful songwriters, unite ::)
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I agree with DB, let's have this thread locked and all go for a long walk.
I think enough has been put forward here that Tone can make his own decision now. What we need is to leave some thinking time.
I will say this though. There are forums out there that are over-policed, but that should not scare us into under-policing. Some restriction is good.
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I think part of the problem with forums, especially during discussions like this, is that it is VERY easy to read each and every post as a personal criticism of yourself!
Just because you're paranoid it doesn't mean they are not out to get you! ;)
I would urge everyone not to take anything in this thread personally but just as a frank "no hold barred" discussion to sort out some very minor issues
There are actually some fantastic ideas in this thread and I am sure we will benefit from a better and stronger forum as a result
As a "newbie" I am less sentimental about people leaving (because I have not been lucky enough to get to know them properly yet) but I do hope they will reconsider - there would be no loss of face at all if they did, I am sure they would be welcomed back with open arms
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Tina. You are not to blame at all.
You are simply one of the good people who hate to see this place abused and are not afraid to speak your mind.
All you did weas ask Sjoerd why you should bother to waste your time on his post when he NEVER spend time on anyone else.
A very fair question and one that should be asked of members who only take.
I mean let's get real here. It's not a lot that is being asked.
A system that worked for a long time isn't working so great anymore. People who in the past got the message. Don't anymore.
We all had the same way of dealing with these selfish people and it worked.
Now they come here, and instead of everyone being united in guiding them towards integrating or ignoring them.
A Forum is a community.
Why join a community to not take any other part than to take?
If you were in a pub having some drinks with your mates and everytime it was time fro a round, some starnger walked over to get his pint and then left again, doesn't join in with the group... doesn't join in the conversation, how would you react to that? I'm, going to guarrantee that you will tell this stranger who only arrives in your group when their is a free pint being handed over to piss off!
Maybe it's because a pint costs money I think everyone would react differently.
Well getting a review costs others people TIME.
No one is asking for this place to become cold or angry.
This place has always tried to get people to behave more socially and not selfishly. Nothing has changed there. No one is asking for anything new.
But a lot of the newer memebers are ignoring this. Not only are they not working together with the whole ethos of the foums - which is participation, they seem to be actively
working against it. The review these selfish people without any mention of how we like people to join in on other peoples threads to make things fair.
This is what is making some longer term members angry.
The message of fairness is a good one. The message of not being selfish is a good one, but it seems SONGSTHATCRY, that the newer members have their own agenda. Out with the old in with the new. Well I despise that view. You give no worth to some of the beautiful long term supportive members.
I agree with one thing you say which is that whether you are a newer member or an older member, there should be equality. You are right. But this is precisely what this is about.
People not being equal. People not giving and only taking is not equal is it. But the newer members (someof them) are not supporting the idea's that have long been the basis of this forum.
And to be fair the longer term members who have given an incredible amount to this forum and have always strived to welcome new people and get them to integrate are now being ignored.
They don't deserve this. Yes things should be equal. But when you have given so much you have a right to a bit more respect for what you have given.
Let's think about what is being asked!
That new members are given time.
We all know that joining in is a big step for some people.
No one is suggesting that people are jumped on straight away.
What is being suggested is that Newcomers are all given the benefit of doubt.
That we help to EASE them into the forumand the spirit of it.
That we give gentle nudges in the right direction.
That we continue to review necomers whether they review or not AT FIRST.
That longer term members who take no heed of the gentle nudging, who return time after time for their own selfish needs are dealt with.
It's not a massive shake-up. It's a few small changes to help a forum that is evolving.
What would happen if all the members who do most of the reviewing only started to post their own songs and not review anyone else.
Is it impossible for people to see that that is wrong? How long would people put up with it?
So why should we put up with it from anyone else.
If so I suggest we change this from a forum to a FREE SONG REVIEW SERVICE.
I'm sorry to see Kaf go and I'm sorry to see Tina go and after this debate I'll be going too.
No metter how you disguise it, selfishness is what it is and I am not willing to put up with people who abuse others.
I am for community, respect, support, friendship and everything that makes a community great. Those who don't wish to give back and here's the most important part, CONINUALLY, should be ignored. NOt encouraged to carry on that selfish behaviour by being given what they came for.
James you were right to post your polite, well mannered nudge :)
Tina you are right to challenge these unbelievably selfish people :)
You too Songsmith :)
And everyone else who gives their time so generously just to have it abused. I suggest you all only post your own stuff and leave everyone else's and see what happens.
I wonder if everyone will just keep quite about it or whether there will be further uproar?
I don't understand people who use the LAME excuse that their time is limited. Too many things to do in real life.
Oh really. Well you have time to write the song, work on and record it.
We all have lives. Some busier than others. And we all have sad stories. My dads got alzheimers so that means I should be selfish. Sorry that arguement doesn't work.
If you have time to create songs you have time to spare just a little for other people. they have busy live too but they post on your stuff!
Tone himself tries to encourage people not to behave in this selfish manner. The guidelines point this out too. And many of the members try to point this out to new members too.
So most people clearly believe in it. But what happenes when someone basically says that they don't care? What happenes when someone ignores all this advice and return time after time.
Are you new members (some of you) helping us in trying to keep the forums a fair place? No you are not.
It's not about controlling people. It's about all joining together to KEEP this forum a great place for those who choose to GIVE as well as take. It's about justice and fairness and what is right.
And this is by no means about music. I post songs on here much less frquently than other people. The last I posted was some old songs that I put in one thread.
Plus my music is only for my own pleasure and not for gigging or trying to "make it".
It is purely about fairness and what is acceptable behaviour to accept from someone.
I'm sick of seeing in life, the selfish, the rude, the bullies win. I am standing up for what is right and I will defend it and the people who also stand up for it.
Or do we live in a country where the freedom to defend what is right has been taken away? Where we better just shut our mouths and put up with the arseholes?
Yeah right.
We learn it as children. GIVE and take.
That this whole thread has to happen in the first place and common sense can't be used to deal with the abusers is a joke.
There have been numerous occassions where some of the members who actually care about being abused have spoken to the abusers but these days we are constantly
undermined by SOME of the new members who instead of supporting the idea of give and take, allow the takers to take.
I think it is incredibly selfish to join a forum and then swim against the tide of what the majority of the forum holds dear.
It's not going to stop.
Nothing will get done about the abusers and the people who help them rather than supporting the ethos of the forum.
That's why I'm checking out.
In life there is equality. Yes. But there is also common sense. You don't join a group and then immediately think your way and your say should count as much as peoples who have already proved themselves.
It takes time to be accepted into a group. That just doesn't happen in real life. You should respect that although everyone is equal, you can't just join a group that is new to you
and start upsetting the apple cart.
I'm leaving because I no longer wish to be a giver. I no longer wish to give to anyone who behaves selfishly or SUPPORTS the selfish people.
I would stay and just post my own songs for review but I don't think that would go down very well. WHICH IS THE POINT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Wake up.
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Wow.
A welcome email (glad you all like that idea :)) and limiting each member to one or two songs a week with a bit of coding would probably solve 95% of these issues and get the forum back to solid ground.
James xx
Agreed - It's got to be worth trying just that and seeing if it gets better. What harm can it do? If it doesn't work then it's a rethink.
Yes I agree with this too. Lets hope it works. BTB
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Tina. You are not to blame at all.
You are simply one of the good people who hate to see this place abused and are not afraid to speak your mind.
All you did weas ask Sjoerd why you should bother to waste your time on his post when he NEVER spend time on anyone else.
A very fair question and one that should be asked of members who only take.
I mean let's get real here. It's not a lot that is being asked.
A system that worked for a long time isn't working so great anymore. People who in the past got the message. Don't anymore.
We all had the same way of dealing with these selfish people and it worked.
Now they come here, and instead of everyone being united in guiding them towards integrating or ignoring them.
A Forum is a community.
Why join a community to not take any other part than to take?
If you were in a pub having some drinks with your mates and everytime it was time fro a round, some starnger walked over to get his pint and then left again, doesn't join in with the group... doesn't join in the conversation, how would you react to that? I'm, going to guarrantee that you will tell this stranger who only arrives in your group when their is a free pint being handed over to piss off!
Maybe it's because a pint costs money I think everyone would react differently.
Well getting a review costs others people TIME.
No one is asking for this place to become cold or angry.
This place has always tried to get people to behave more socially and not selfishly. Nothing has changed there. No one is asking for anything new.
But a lot of the newer memebers are ignoring this. Not only are they not working together with the whole ethos of the foums - which is participation, they seem to be actively
working against it. The review these selfish people without any mention of how we like people to join in on other peoples threads to make things fair.
This is what is making some longer term members angry.
The message of fairness is a good one. The message of not being selfish is a good one, but it seems SONGSTHATCRY, that the newer members have their own agenda. Out with the old in with the new. Well I despise that view. You give no worth to some of the beautiful long term supportive members.
I agree with one thing you say which is that whether you are a newer member or an older member, there should be equality. You are right. But this is precisely what this is about.
People not being equal. People not giving and only taking is not equal is it. But the newer members (someof them) are not supporting the idea's that have long been the basis of this forum.
And to be fair the longer term members who have given an incredible amount to this forum and have always strived to welcome new people and get them to integrate are now being ignored.
They don't deserve this. Yes things should be equal. But when you have given so much you have a right to a bit more respect for what you have given.
Let's think about what is being asked!
That new members are given time.
We all know that joining in is a big step for some people.
No one is suggesting that people are jumped on straight away.
What is being suggested is that Newcomers are all given the benefit of doubt.
That we help to EASE them into the forumand the spirit of it.
That we give gentle nudges in the right direction.
That we continue to review necomers whether they review or not AT FIRST.
That longer term members who take no heed of the gentle nudging, who return time after time for their own selfish needs are dealt with.
It's not a massive shake-up. It's a few small changes to help a forum that is evolving.
What would happen if all the members who do most of the reviewing only started to post their own songs and not review anyone else.
Is it impossible for people to see that that is wrong? How long would people put up with it?
So why should we put up with it from anyone else.
If so I suggest we change this from a forum to a FREE SONG REVIEW SERVICE.
I'm sorry to see Kaf go and I'm sorry to see Tina go and after this debate I'll be going too.
No metter how you disguise it, selfishness is what it is and I am not willing to put up with people who abuse others.
I am for community, respect, support, friendship and everything that makes a community great. Those who don't wish to give back and here's the most important part, CONINUALLY, should be ignored. NOt encouraged to carry on that selfish behaviour by being given what they came for.
James you were right to post your polite, well mannered nudge :)
Tina you are right to challenge these unbelievably selfish people :)
You too Songsmith :)
And everyone else who gives their time so generously just to have it abused. I suggest you all only post your own stuff and leave everyone else's and see what happens.
I wonder if everyone will just keep quite about it or whether there will be further uproar?
I don't understand people who use the LAME excuse that their time is limited. Too many things to do in real life.
Oh really. Well you have time to write the song, work on and record it.
We all have lives. Some busier than others. And we all have sad stories. My dads got alzheimers so that means I should be selfish. Sorry that arguement doesn't work.
If you have time to create songs you have time to spare just a little for other people. they have busy live too but they post on your stuff!
Tone himself tries to encourage people not to behave in this selfish manner. The guidelines point this out too. And many of the members try to point this out to new members too.
So most people clearly believe in it. But what happenes when someone basically says that they don't care? What happenes when someone ignores all this advice and return time after time.
Are you new members (some of you) helping us in trying to keep the forums a fair place? No you are not.
It's not about controlling people. It's about all joining together to KEEP this forum a great place for those who choose to GIVE as well as take. It's about justice and fairness and what is right.
And this is by no means about music. I post songs on here much less frquently than other people. The last I posted was some old songs that I put in one thread.
Plus my music is only for my own pleasure and not for gigging or trying to "make it".
It is purely about fairness and what is acceptable behaviour to accept from someone.
I'm sick of seeing in life, the selfish, the rude, the bullies win. I am standing up for what is right and I will defend it and the people who also stand up for it.
Or do we live in a country where the freedom to defend what is right has been taken away? Where we better just shut our mouths and put up with the arseholes?
Yeah right.
We learn it as children. GIVE and take.
That this whole thread has to happen in the first place and common sense can't be used to deal with the abusers is a joke.
There have been numerous occassions where some of the members who actually care about being abused have spoken to the abusers but these days we are constantly
undermined by SOME of the new members who instead of supporting the idea of give and take, allow the takers to take.
I think it is incredibly selfish to join a forum and then swim against the tide of what the majority of the forum holds dear.
It's not going to stop.
Nothing will get done about the abusers and the people who help them rather than supporting the ethos of the forum.
That's why I'm checking out.
In life there is equality. Yes. But there is also common sense. You don't join a group and then immediately think your way and your say should count as much as peoples who have already proved themselves.
It takes time to be accepted into a group. That just doesn't happen in real life. You should respect that although everyone is equal, you can't just join a group that is new to you
and start upsetting the apple cart.
I'm leaving because I no longer wish to be a giver. I no longer wish to give to anyone who behaves selfishly or SUPPORTS the selfish people.
I would stay and just post my own songs for review but I don't think that would go down very well. WHICH IS THE POINT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Wake up.
Can we have this in writing!
You mate are the biggest bully on here.....swearing , threatening..i actually think your mentally ill!!!
Frankly this as gone past the ridiculous finish line and then some..
TONE..you have clear decisions to make now...if you want your old buddies back..and i think they will be back.
devise a new system that ensures peeps songs stay in the limelight..its not really about commenting is it..........if you visit a shop twice a yea,r your not told your a worse customer than someone who`s a regular shopper?
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This isn't a shop is it though?
You don't buy things here. If people came in to pay money for what they recieve that would be different.
This isn't a shop. It is a community. It requires people to behave in a giving as well as taking manner, otherwise it doesn't work.
That is the whole principle that makes it work.
If it were a shop this discussion wouldn't be being had.
The truth is that MOST people don't see or treat this place like a shop. MOST people follow the guidlines and participate.
And MOST people agree with the guidlines that have been set for this forum by its owner Tone.
We believe that a certain amount of participation is needed. Otherwise Tone wouldn't put those guidelines up. Otherwise
none of us would try to get people to follow the guidlines.
Are you saying Tone is wrong? That the majority here are wrong?
You should be supporting us as a much newer member. You should be helping us to get this message across so that this community can grow with many new
and valuable members who hlep it to grow by joining in. Not giving abusers of the forums a reason to keep on abusing.
Estreet, BTB, James and quite a few others are relatively new members and they are just as equal and valued as anyone else here. It doesn't matter how
long they have been here. What matters is that they have ALL entered into the spirit of the place.
It doesn't even matter if you can't get on very often. Some people are busier than others. What matters is that when you do get the chance, that it isn't always for yourself.
This is a community not a shop.
There is a big flaw in your agruement if you consider this place to be like a shop.
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Well I'm back ! I never knew so many people cared - thanks for all the messages :D
And without risk of inflaming the situation I think this needs to be said -
The MAJORITY do not want change. The MAJORITY have politely kept quiet while a MINORITY have hijacked this forum with aggression and railroaded tone into thinking that the forum needs to change.
The MAJORITY do not care if someone posts 3 songs in a week, they also do not care if someone posts no reviews - they know that eventually that person will get no reviews - I have been here longer than most - it seriously works
James - I apologise if I directly offended you, you are a lovely guy - can we not see past guidelines ( not rules ) when someone posts something really personal. Where has the perspective gone. I completely undertand you meant no harm but I do not have had the heart to do that. Yes Florida mike posted 3 songs quickly but he reviews about 15 so he was definetely giving more than taking.
Schavu - again I think you are a lovely guy but your arguments are ridiculous and so aggressive it makes me sick - sorry mate. You talk about this forum as being your house, a pub then slaughter someone for saying its like a shop. It's neither of those things - its an internet forum - the best one at the Internet at that, I hope you can see that you have let yourself down big time. I also hope you give yourself time to calm down and think before you respond to this. I want you on this forum and extend the hand of friendship to you but i cannot stand back any more and advocate your vicious attacks.
From now on I will post on what the hell I like and don't care if Im attacked by the minority or accused of being a liberal.
This forum was here long before me and definetely before the minority who have now hijacked it.
If any changes are needed they are very, very minor. Perhaps all thats needed is an anonymous report button so we can ban members who threaten , bully , intimidate , belittle others who are just going about their business , particularly new members who are finding their way in the forum.
I hope I have been polite in this and apologise if I have not. I think it needs to be said.
Can we please get back to the music?
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Alright...
I agree with Schav's mentality. Not his language, not his analogies, not his exact ideas. He has the right mentality behind it though, we do need some sort of stricter rule system. Not too much stricter, mind. In fact not very strict at all compared to pretty much every forum out there. We basically need it to be in the rules that those who do not contribute in return will get their threads locked and viola, issue resolved.
No-one can exist without rules. Those who consider themselves the 'old guard' have a fairly matching set of intrinsic rules they're applying to this forum, the give-and-take sort of thing. This works. There's people here who don't have those intrinsic rules. We need to make them extrinsic rules in that case. If they won't go with the way that works then we need to make it imperative that they do.
It's not fascism, guys, let's all settle down about having an extra rule or two in place and enforced.
On a side note:
KAFLA YOU CAME BACK :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
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Cheers Corsair,
I appreciate it mate ;D
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Oh and another thing -
Your membership of this forum cannot be determined exclusively by your activity -
I have recently produced a song for Mr Chainshaw, one for Tinam
I am working on a new collab with Paul
I have about 4 on the go with Dutchbeat
Estreet is helping me with some guitar and bass on one of my songs
All these things prevent me being on the forum but it's important forum business ;D
For me this is the true strength and power of the forum :)
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+1 to what Corsair has said above
Most importantly, welcomr back KAFLA - it took guts to come back and I glad you have
I thought it might be useful to list some of the ideas in this thread that have jumped out:
- Clarifying some simple RULES that can be "enforced" with carrots and not sticks ( well, to start with anyway ;))
- A welcome email welcoming new members and laying out the rules, values and etiquette of the forums
- Some moderators to police the rules and/or a report button - allowing TONE or the moderators to resolve issues
- if this is in place I also think there should be a "rule" that only TONE and the moderators can reprimand offenders - if anyone else has an issue they can just stop reviewing that person and report them - there should be no " mob justice" to prevent bullying, negative atmospheres etc.
These are my ideas for the pot having read this thread
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+1 to what Corsair has said above
Most importantly, welcomr back KAFLA - it took guts to come back and I glad you have
I thought it might be useful to list some of the ideas in this thread that have jumped out:
- Clarifying some simple RULES that can be "enforced" with carrots and not sticks ( well, to start with anyway ;))
- A welcome email welcoming new members and laying out the rules, values and etiquette of the forums
- Some moderators to police the rules and/or a report button - allowing TONE or the moderators to resolve issues
- if this is in place I also think there should be a "rule" that only TONE and the moderators can reprimand offenders - if anyone else has an issue they can just stop reviewing that person and report them - there should be no " mob justice" to prevent bullying, negative atmospheres etc.
These are my ideas for the pot having read this thread
I vote for this :D
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Kaf, we'll just have to agree to dissagree. The pub analogy (although of course you are right, this isn't a pub either.) is much closer to what happens
than seeing this place as a shop.
And yes I agree about what has worked for a long time. I have been here for a long time too. And I have always been happy about how things worked up until recently.
It HAS changed.
When Tina posts a reply to Sjoerd asking why she should take the time to review him when he blatantly ignores everyone else. That is a fair question to ask.
It is RIGHT to challenge people on their selfish behaviour. People do it all the time in "real life".
When then one of the newer members undermines her as a member by reacting so flippantly about something that obviously bothers her and more people here it is dis-respectful to her.
She is my friend and so when I see a friend being disrespected I will jump in and defend that friend and if someone is being disrespectful, I probably won't be very nice about it either.
And you are wrong about the majority too.
If the majority don't see it as something that needs sorting out, gently, because I agree it is only minor changes that are needed, then why are people looking for solutions?
I differential myself from a bully in the way that I only ever lose my cool when people are disrespectful to my friends or for instance when I am called a wanker. Like I was
in the recent past. I was appologised to over that by the person who said it but not before I reacted strongly.
If you are Mr Cool and don't react to the abuse of your friends or being called names then that's up to you.
I'm pretty straight that way. I have strong idea's, sure I do, but I only lose my cool when people are disrespectful. Having an opposing arguement and putting it forward
strongly is what everyone has the right to do. This is a diplomatic country Kaf. You don't have to like my voice or what I say, but I can say it. And if you disrespect or turn to name calling
then you and no one else will stop me from responding to that.
I was taking a time out... Only coming in here to respond to all the support I get privately. But now you've made up my mind
Cheers ;)
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Schavu - the support I have received in private would indicate that the majority only want minor changes if any. People are scared to speak out incase they meet your wrath - can you honestly not see that?
There is no excuse for the way you have behaved no matter how you justify it.
To use your pub analogy - if I met you in a pub behaving the way you do on here I would avoid you not challenge you.
You need to control your anger - I have found it unacceptable - I know from the messages that I have received that others have too. I respect Tinam enormously - we have exchanged many emails and have so far worked on two songs together - Tinam has strong views but views them strongly - never aggressively.
Lets get this in perspective though - you are mostly a loving, caring and humorous character and give tremendously to this forum ;)
I really cant say anymore than this 8)
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Welcome back Kafla...agree with what you have said 100%...THE MAJORITY...although they can see things not quite right are fairly satisfied with the site,and although see new posters maybe being a bit enthusiastic with their songs..do soon enough ..leave or join in.
But they can`t be forced too ,it`s a ridiculous principle....if it`s not forthcoming..why force it. ???
The analogy between a shop and here ..was how regular and ill-regular users should be viewed ,,not that it`s a shop!!!
is this an exclusive club or is an open forum.....if you`ve been on here a while or indeed any other site(like i am) you don`t have special privileges.....yes you become online buddies and feel you`ve helped make the site what it is....but if it wasn`t you or me ..it would have been a bunch of other peeps?
Swearing and abusive .. should be completely stamped on ...i don`t do it..i can be the sarcastic .keyboard warrior from hell...but i don`t want to be...
I hope Tinam does come back and this is all repaired....maybe your actions will prompt her to return?.
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+1 to what Corsair has said above
Most importantly, welcomr back KAFLA - it took guts to come back and I glad you have
I thought it might be useful to list some of the ideas in this thread that have jumped out:
- Clarifying some simple RULES that can be "enforced" with carrots and not sticks ( well, to start with anyway ;))
- A welcome email welcoming new members and laying out the rules, values and etiquette of the forums
- Some moderators to police the rules and/or a report button - allowing TONE or the moderators to resolve issues
- if this is in place I also think there should be a "rule" that only TONE and the moderators can reprimand offenders - if anyone else has an issue they can just stop reviewing that person and report them - there should be no " mob justice" to prevent bullying, negative atmospheres etc.
These are my ideas for the pot having read this thread
I like this a lot ;D
Nooms used to review a new members song and then finish it with a little message saying that to get more reviews you should review others - thats the way to do it ;)
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+1 to what Corsair has said above
Most importantly, welcomr back KAFLA - it took guts to come back and I glad you have
I thought it might be useful to list some of the ideas in this thread that have jumped out:
- Clarifying some simple RULES that can be "enforced" with carrots and not sticks ( well, to start with anyway ;))
- A welcome email welcoming new members and laying out the rules, values and etiquette of the forums
- Some moderators to police the rules and/or a report button - allowing TONE or the moderators to resolve issues
- if this is in place I also think there should be a "rule" that only TONE and the moderators can reprimand offenders - if anyone else has an issue they can just stop reviewing that person and report them - there should be no " mob justice" to prevent bullying, negative atmospheres etc.
These are my ideas for the pot having read this thread
I like this a lot ;D
Nooms used to review a new members song and then finish it with a little message saying that to get more reviews you should review others - thats the way to do it ;)
Yes this looks great to me too. BTB
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I think Kaf and Schav do need to 'agree to disagree' as Scahv put it because you both hold views that both hold validity. It comes down to personal experiences and how they dictate your world view. I know a guy who's family is dead quiet and whenever someone calls out to him across a room he gets offended because he thinks the person is angry at him or something.
I think Shav and Kaf both have valid viewpoints and I can see where both are coming from. I find myself agreeing more with Schav because he has spoken his mind and has been, in my opinion, realistic but frankly Kaf has a completely different life experience and has found Schav to be overly offensive and there's nothing wrong with that being his opinion. There are places in the world where the C word would be used flippantly in everyday conversation and those people just don't see what they've done 'wrong' when they talk like that in other cultures. That's kind of what's going on here.
In terms of approaching a solution, I think it's becoming pretty clear that Boydie's summary of the suggestions is the most popular idea and I do hope we try and adopt those principles.
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Don't know if you have noticed Kaf but this thread is no holes barred.
I know sometimes I react more strongly that what most people find comfortable. I aprreciate that.
But it doesn't mean that I am not right. All the support I have had in private messages pretty much all say the same thing.
That I am right but am probably not putting it in the right way.
The pub analogy was about people giving beers away for free, to people who bother to contirbute and be a part of the social group.
In a shop the social group doesn't matter because you are SELLING.
A stranger walks into a shop and it doesn't matter because they are PAYING for what they recieve.
A stranger walking into a group and expecting to be given free beer (that costs the group money, just like reviews cost TIME) would probably be told to piss off.
This forum will not exist without people giving and not just taking. But why should it only be a certain group that gives?
And yes it is only MINOR changes that would be needed. Noone including myself has said otherwise. But NOTHING was being done.
This has come up in arguement time after time. And it certainly isn't always me that starts the complaining.
So why does this keep coming up? Because there IS a problem.
What if we all started only posting our own stuff and none of use reviewed? That wouldn't work would it.
I'm into fairness and equality very much and if some members on here have a problem with the injustice of it, then it is a problem.
You might not like it and you might not like the way I have approached it, but it's there.
This has been argue'd many times and still people are left frustrated. You might not like my strong stance but at least someone has kicked up enough fuss that
for once it looks like something might be done.
Yes what Nooms does is the best way. No one not even myself dissagree's with that.
What some people are failing to see or acknowledge is that although we are all agree'd that that is probably the best way and should STILL remain the way we try
to get members to join in. SOME members are ignoring the advice of being fair and continue, despite people being polite about it, to come in here and take without giving.
Sjoerd is a good example.
So what then? What when the nudging and polite advice doesn't work and people keep posting reviews on their stuff?
The older members who AGREE with and LIKE the way Nooms does it and believe that that is the best way, are no longer getting the message across because depsite
their best effort because people they are getting reviews so why listen to people talking about being fair.
It undermines the message and if it carries on you will get more and more who think, "ok I'm still getting the reviews I want so why bother."
It doesn't take drastic measures to re-think how this problem can be tackled. If you read my posts I still believe in the gentle reminders as much as everyone else.
I'm talking about what to do with people who ignore them and don't drop away from the forums. People who keep returning. As long as they are getting reviewed why should they care about joining in? And joining in is what this forum is about or, like I said, it doesn't work. It also leads memebers like myself to re-think about giving so much. Why should review when others are allowed to keep coming back and get away with not doing?
You cannot have an unfair system.
If it wasn't desired that people give as well as take, why is it in the guidelines? Why do people get uspet about it.
It doesn't take a genuis mate.
Yes I do probably get over irate. That tends to happen when people live in a home, belong to a group, etc... In which they see injustices.
I don't think I put things across as I should sometimes. But I am right. And although people would generally agree with you about me not putting it across in the best manner, a great deal of people are showing support for what I am saying, just not how I say it.
I was attacked here a while ago. I was called a wanker. I was attacked because someone did not like my opinion. I didn't swear, I didn't call anyone a name but because I argue'd a point strongly (and there's nothing wrong with that, like you said about Tina) I was called a wanker.
I told that person that it was a good job that it had been said on here because if it had been said to my face I would have sparked them out.
I don't know which world you live in Kaf, but if someone calls me a wanker to my face for no good reason other than that they dissagree with me, that is exactly what I would do.
I'm not going to lie or pretend to be someone I am not.
You may see that as agression and I guess it is, but justified.
Again like you say, there is nothing wrong with putting a view across strongly if you feel strongly about it and that is hat I do most of the time.
Sometimes I lose my cool agree'd.
Tina is a well respected member of this forum and this obviously bothers her too. To have someone who barely spends any time here then come in and trivialize her feelings and undermine them is out of order and disrespectful.
I stand against that.
And yes, people who have put a great deal into the forums and support it regularly should be considered in how they feel, above people who hardly spend any time here in comparison.
What kind of place allows its long standing contributers/supporters to start to feel alienated by the newer members.
Yes everyone is equal, but that time and effort is not worthless.
Yes it could have been ANY group of people who supported this forum but it wasn't, it was the people who are here.
And if those newer member did what Nooms does which all of us older members agree is the best way to do it. We'd be alright wouldn't we.
Things would go how they always have. But things are not going how they always have because some of the newcomers don't agree with the guidelines aparently, or they wouldn't keep giving the takers reviews without pointing them in the right direction at the same time.
That small change that the newcomers could make, to join us in that message rather than undermining it could solve the problem. Support for the message that Tone's guidelines point out and what we longer term members point out.
But no... That's too difficult.
It would be the smallest of changes. Pathetic!
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Its all getting a bit repetitive now
Unless anyone has anything really new to add I think Tone has all the ammunition he needs to implement the changes as he sees fit ;D
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Yep, I've got all I need. I'll be working on a welcome email, and appointing a couple of mods in the very near future.
In the meantime....
Be excellent to one another :)
Thread closed