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Songwriter Forum => Resources & Marketing => Topic started by: Sterix on December 23, 2021, 10:59:38 PM

Title: Royalties
Post by: Sterix on December 23, 2021, 10:59:38 PM
So, as many of you know, I've been writing lyrics for a couple of bands (the singer is the same for both bands which helps in the contact department). As this was my first forray into the world of properly writing lyrics for other people (this forum excepted) I was treating it as both a learning exercise and an ego trip.
Then I get a message yesterday from the singer. The second band did an EP and now they're looking to register it with something called SGAE - a Spanish "collecting society". They've also discussed offering me a percentage of "author rights".
Apparently I would need to become a member of something called PPL (he wasn't 100% sure himself), although I'm unsure as to why. It may have got lost in translation (and, again, the singer wasn't 100% sure himself) but he thinks it's something to do with receiving the royalties.
I tried Googling this myself but all I got was an headache!
Anyone here famiar with this type of stuff can maybe explain it to me how it works (in really basic English!)? I'm not sure if I'm explaining myself too clearly but I do want to make clear that the bands and I have a really good connection together so I know they're not trying to screw me over (and to be honest, money was the last thing on my mind with this). But I do want to protect myself and make sure it's not going to be a case of me paying out more money than I'll get out of it (money's tight and I don't hold the purse strings in my household - even my wage goes into my wife's account so it's not a case of not wanting to but a case of fiscal reality!).
At the moment it's one EP but the other band are releasing an album around February/March time.
Title: Re: Royalties
Post by: Boydie on December 24, 2021, 12:02:13 PM
This is all very exciting @Sterix (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=22024) - and it is great that you are treating it as a learning curve and not being “precious” and protective, which (IMHO) is EXACTLY the right thing to do

In very basic terms there are 2 types of royalties - “performance” royalties owed if your music is performed live, played in open spaces (shops etc.), played on the TV, or broadcast on the radio

Then there is the “mechanical” royalty owed from recordings - downloads, CD sales etc.

There is also clearly a massive overlap between the 2

I think the key part of your question is:

Quote
But I do want to protect myself and make sure it's not going to be a case of me paying out more money than I'll get out of it (money's tight and I don't hold the purse strings in my household

In the UK you would need to join an organisation called the Performing Rights Society (PRS for Music), as a writer, which is a one off fee of £100 and covers the performance royalties

You would also need to join the MCPS as a writer to protect (collect and pay you) the “mechanical” royalties, which is an additional £100

So a “one off” £200 investment

To be brutally honest - it is unlikely you would recoup this in royalties any time soon - but it may be worth doing to cement your status and have an opportunity to frame that first royalty cheque for a few pence! - and it is a one off cost so doing it now means it will last and be in place for the future

Other countries have different organisations - but the PRS has a strong global network

I would suggest having a look on their website and perhaps contact them for some guidance
Title: Re: Royalties
Post by: PaulAds on December 24, 2021, 05:30:15 PM
Good luck 😀

It’s a nice bit of recognition anyway. I don’t know if I’d drop £100 or more on the off-chance.

I once invested around £2.50 on a dozen stamps to send demos away and in return received this lovely photo montage that I can frame and hang on the wall.

(https://i.postimg.cc/tTF6yxCH/147459-E4-0-DA2-48-ED-BE6-B-1682-C79-ACE79.jpg)

Lousiest investment I ever made 😀
Title: Re: Royalties
Post by: Sterix on December 24, 2021, 10:46:03 PM
Thanks for the info. I was trying to Google it but I couldn't wrap my head around it.

I'll have to give it some good, hard thought.

I can't afford that layout at the moment - there are too many priorities for when we have that kind of "spare" money (half the kitchen appliances need replacing for a start!).

At the moment, it's one EP's worth of "royalties". Early next year that should include the album I spent nearly 3 years working on! Eventually the EP will go on to become an album too. Beyond that... well who knows? I'm hoping to find other artists who would be interested in my tallents and I'll start persuing some avenues in the new year.

So I'm approaching this from both a short-term perspective and a longer one.

Yes, some long, hard thought needed.
Title: Re: Royalties
Post by: MartynRich on November 27, 2022, 09:12:09 PM
I can see I´m posting a year after the OP put this up but SGAE is the Spanish equivalent of the PRS. As the lyric writer you should get 50% of the songwriting royalties.
Title: Re: Royalties
Post by: Wicked deeds on November 27, 2022, 10:15:03 PM
It's interesting to read about the division of royalties.  I'm not informed enough to understand the percentage split for writing lyrics or music.  However, as I am responsible for all aspects of writing from beginning to end, inclusive of playing all instruments and production,   I feel I have an excellent understanding of how difficult and time consuming the constituent parts of songwriting are.   I believe that the lyric writing part is the least time consuming.  it is for me and it is quickly completed in the early stages of a songwriting project.  I therefore can't help but question how writers of constituent parts of a song agree on royalties when they embark on a writing project.  How are agreements established between amateur writers before a song is discovered and commercially released?  Is it  fair for a lyricist get a 50 % share of songwriting royalties in a scenario described above and does anyone agree to this when they collaborate?   

I'd say that it would be fair if a song is presented in it's most simple format of guitar vocal or piano vocal for example as each part would quite possibly take a similar amount of time and perhaps skill.   However, I'm interested in discovering what is deemed to be fair amongst amateur songwriters who might be responsible for different aspects of song presentation.

This is an amended post as I don't think my original post quite expressed exactly what I was intending to. I'd be very interested to know how everyone works in a situation when for example, they don't write lyrics and agree to work with a lyricist.

Paul
Title: Re: Royalties
Post by: Boydie on November 28, 2022, 08:03:39 AM
@Wicked deeds (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=22916)

Quote
Is it  fair for a lyricist get a 50 % share of songwriting royalties in a scenario described above and does anyone agree to this when they collaborate?   

I suspect the short answer is: “No, but they should”

There are 3 distinct schools of thought...

1 - you agree, up front, a “division of labour” for a project and assign a % agreed in writing. This way you can have an up front discussion about your view that lyrics are the “easy” bit and the “music bit” (melody, harmony, arrangement etc.) is “harder” so should command a higher %

As long as it is transparent, done in advance,  and agreed in writing - you are golden

2 - you wait until the end of the project and then assign the % based on the contributions of the contributors. This approach has disaster written all over it, as (IMHO) it can affect the creative process if people end up fighting for THEIR ideas, rather than the idea that best suits the song

3 - “everyone in the room” gets an equal % - IMHO this is the best approach, and the one I prefer. You all agree that it is an equal % split regardless of the level of contribution. This works especially well to build collaboration relationships as you are likely to contribute different amounts to different projects - and changing that single line of lyric, or melody note, may make ALL of the difference to the song

You can do it ANY way you like - but please (please please please) make sure that the discussion is done in advance and agreed in writing to save issues later if you do write that elusive hit!!

Title: Re: Royalties
Post by: Sterix on November 28, 2022, 08:14:12 PM
I'm not sure how "50%" works when you're writing for a band tbh. Unless you're writing the music as well possibly (since then it really is YOUR song but arranged and performed by them). But if there's just one of you writing the lyrics and there are FIVE members in the band itself, can you really stake a claim for that much?

For me, I'm more than happy with my 10% for working on these two projects. I'm more about getting my "foot in the door" and being noticed at the moment than in it for the money (which is nice but hardly going to buy me a yacht now). And there are a tonne of others out there like me, all trying to grab themselve a lyricless singer/band, so I can't afford to be greedy.

I offered to do this for free but they pretty much forced the royalties on me! The breakdown is a variation on no. 3 in Boydie's list. Me 10% and the bands split the rest equally (not sure how the producer or guest artists fit in).

If I get any more enquiries (and I have had a couple of missed ones due to the incompetency of Facebook which I'm still peeved about) I'll definitely approach it from a more financial mindset. But I'll also weight it against the potential for putting myself out there more.

On a slightly side note, Jacin was saying just before the release of the album that my cut of the royalties at the time probably amounted to around €120. Still not worth the £200 for joinging PRS but it means it's definitely in the back of my mind now. Not sure what it is now that the album is finally out...
Title: Re: Royalties
Post by: Boydie on November 29, 2022, 07:38:25 AM
For what it is worth @Sterix (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=22024) - I think you are playing it perfectly
 👏👏