The Songwriter Forum - songwriting reviews, tips and chat
Songwriter Forum => The Bar => Topic started by: Paulski on May 18, 2020, 02:02:51 PM
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Well I had high hopes for songtradr and for like 5 bucks a month seemed like it might be a good deal.
That was maybe two years ago, and early on, it met my expectations. A few of my tracks were selected for "compilation" albums and quite a few got short-listed but never made the final selection.
I earned a whopping total of, wait for it, 9 dollars in royalties!!
But I thought - they're just starting out so give them time to establish a foothold in the industry.
I'm afraid my patience is running thin.
They now list about 10 "opportunities" for "content" - which to my understanding, just sit in their library waiting for someone to shop there for that type of music.
They seldom post a real live request - and when they do it's for Egyptian traditional folk or some other obscure genre.
So I'm thinking of bailing - anyone else feel that way?
Paul
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Hi @paulski, a coincidence that you posted this as I have just come straight from SongTradr just now. I agree that most of the calls for submissions are just their own attempt to organise their own library into curated lists for potential buyers. I haven't been able to submit to a real opportunity for several months that I can recall.
I think it is probably a bad time for them, as a lot of smaller scale films will have been put on ice due to lockdown. But their failure to become a go-to destination for music supervisors is clear.
My subscription ends in August, and I have just put a reminder in my Calendar to cancel unless things improve significantly. The subscription is on auto-renew, so there's a banana skin waiting!
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There is no 'magic bullet' for musicians or songwriters. The market is more crowded, and less enthusiastic than just twenty short years ago. The public has fifty years of music at their fingertips already, and any new music they add to their listening library has to compete against THAT.
And. . . along with the instant availability of fifty years of incredible recorded music to compete with, live music has never been more available. And along with that reality, the music listening public doesn't need to BUY their music to listen to it.
Additionally, as one grizzled old veteran songwriter once told me, 'you can't swing a dead cat without hitting hitting a songwriter anymore.' This forum (and Reverbnation, Soundcloud et. al. are the evidence that he is right.
It is my opinion that anyone hoping to make any kind of living out of writing or playing music had better be REAL GOOD. And REAL LUCKY. And REAL PERSISTENT. And a REAL GOOD SALESMAN.
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It is my opinion that anyone hoping to make any kind of living out of writing or playing music had better be REAL GOOD. And REAL LUCKY. And REAL PERSISTENT. And a REAL GOOD SALESMAN.
VERY wise words @hardtwistmusic (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=19215)
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I think this thread has gone somewhat off track.
All @paulski and I were discussing was whether or not it is worth a few quid a year subscribing to SongTradr who specialise in offering small scale sync deals. Neither of us are expecting fame and fortune, just a reasonable return.
Has anyone else anything to add on their experiences on that platform?
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I guess my point was that "NO, it is not worth spending money on if you're hoping it will lead to discovery and publication."
Discovery and Publication will only come if you sell yourself HARD. AND have incredible talent, AND have otherworldly PERSISTENCE AND if you get LUCKY.
If you are an incredible talent AND sell yourself and your music relentlessly, AND if you have connections in the industry AND/OR if you get really lucky, then you MIGHT 'break through' and be discovered or sell a few recordings.
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I don't give a shit about "discovery and publication" Verlon! @hardtwistmusic (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=19215)
I just want to sell a few songs to a few people wanting to buy them.
And it seemed like Songtradr would be an inexpensive place to do it.
They would post requests from buyers - I would bid on a few a month and even if I won one competition a year I would have some fun and would make my 60 bucks back. In fact, I've almost got $60 worth of fun from it already being shortlisted and getting a few dollars in royalties.
But this thread is about Songtradr - so if you have any insight into why they haven't caught on, I would be happy to hear it :D
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@Paulski (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=19241)
so if you have any insight into why they haven't caught on, I would be happy to hear it :D
I think the comment about Covid-19 affecting the film making and advertising businesses is a good reason why opportunities have dried up a bit lately
However, this would obviously only explain this year
I think the general decline is due to them not being able to get a proper foot hold in the market
I think writing for TV and Film is the “easiest” and most likely way to break in to the music industry to make money from writing songs/music
The problem is that people tend to stick with what they know (eg existing contacts, networks, relationships), which is why I think a model like SongTradr struggles to make real inroads
I haven’t used SongTradr but I assume anyone can signup and submit if they pay the fees? - is there any quality control? If not then the person looking for music could be bombarded with a real mixed bag of quality
I think this is where the TAXI model is better as the songs are pre-screened before getting submitted. This is gives 2 hurdles as you need to get past the screener BEFORE your music is passed to a client
Many find this frustrating but it is a good yardstick to see whether the quality of what you are producing is good enough
However, this means that TAXI only pass on the “best of the best” so they make it easy for music supervisors, which means they keep getting good listings
TAXI is waaaaaay more expensive because of this (hundreds of $$$ per year + a fee for each submission) but in my view it is currently the only credible “way in” if you don’t already have the contacts in the industry or you really want to test whether your music is commercially viable enough (which is VERY different from being “good” enough)
This is why I think SongTradr (and all other similar services that give joe public a shot of submitting music) suffer - the industry just doesn’t want to hear music by Joe public - they want just the good stuff from people they already know - which is why I actually think the comments from @hardtwistmusic (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=19215) are relevant in why SongTradr is struggling to get listing
All just IMHO as I am not 100% sure of the SongTradr model
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I just found this on Reddit:
BleedGreen13182493d
"I run a label, never ever use a sync licensor who makes you pay for them to pitch you. I have used like up to 20 companies who only get paid if I get paid. Those ones who take money to get you syncs are working hard to get you to sign up because that is probably majority of the money they make."
...makes sense. So I would add:
SongTradr and probably Taxi most likely have a business model that relies on paying musicians and are happy to have a high turnover of them. @Boydie (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=18510), like Taxi, SongTradr do pre-screen on opportunities. But maybe you have a point in that because of the relatively low cost to join, the site is more subscribed to by hobbyists. That said most of the sync deals are for tiny - just small projects, people making films, ads etc on a shoestring, and therefore couldn't afford the licensing fee a major artist would ask for.
If a music supervisor uses the site search function, instead of paying for a pre-screened pitch, then the quality of the search results would be at all levels, as there is no quality control there. This would put me off if I were doing that job and maybe think twice about paying the site to pre-screen for me.
But the downing of tools during this virus is probably the site's main temporary issue, as we've said.
Despite all this, I am coming round to @Paulski's view that for about $60 a year it is a bit of fun pitching where you do manage to get on a shortlist. One shortlist I didn't win was only a $300 motivational video. But I'm only doing this for fun, as a hobby, so I would have been quite chuffed to have landed that.
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@MichaelA (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=21274)
like Taxi, SongTradr do pre-screen on opportunities.
I didn't know that - I do actually think that is quite encouraging and definitely shows they are trying to do the right thing so I give them credit for that
Despite all this, I am coming round to @Paulski (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=19241)'s view that for about $60 a year it is a bit of fun pitching where you do manage to get on a shortlist. One shortlist I didn't win was only a $300 motivational video. But I'm only doing this for fun, as a hobby, so I would have been quite chuffed to have landed that.
I also 100% agree with @Paulski (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=19241) - getting any use for your music (paid or not) is better than it sitting on a hard drive forever
I am guessing the vast (vast vast vast) majority of us are not in it for the money - for some us even having a #1 hit would not off-set the money and time we have invested in equipment ::)
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As @MichaelA (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=21274) mentioned, Songtradr does pre-screen.
I think I misnamed what I called a "shortlist". They do have that, but they also have a "final" category where they send your track on to the buyer. I have been excited (60 bucks worth of excitement? IDK :D ) to get on the final list a few times. They credit the submission fees back to your account if you make the final list and the buyer doesn't pick you.
I spent a couple of years on Taxi and TBH I don't trust what they say are opportunities actually are. I think they make a lot of them up. And they never tell you who the winning bid was - this is a major fault IMO because you can't adjust your next submission based on what won.
I've heard what I call the "defeatist" argument many times now: "The industry is wired to insiders only" and "you have a one in a million chance" of selling anything". That maybe true if you want to be the next "Max Martin" but there must be tons of low-budget buyers looking to spend under $1000 for tracks that don't play in that league. What I think Michael and I were looking for in Songratr is an aggregator in that low end market.
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I spent a couple of years on Taxi and TBH I don't trust what they say are opportunities actually are. I think they make a lot of them up. And they never tell you who the winning bid was - this is a major fault IMO because you can't adjust your next submission based on what won.
I definitely hear you about TAXI - it almost seems a bit "cultish" where the successful people seem to dedicate their lives to TAXI and live on the forums etc.
I've heard what I call the "defeatist" argument many times now: "The industry is wired to insiders only" and "you have a one in a million chance" of selling anything". That maybe true if you want to be the next "Max Martin" but there must be tons of low-budget buyers looking to spend under $1000 for tracks that don't play in that league. What I think Michael and I were looking for in Songratr is an aggregator in that low end market.
I think that is part of the problem - it is such a "buyers market" even the low end budget buyers can access the absolute top notch library music for such little money
Music has become so devalued since the "physical" produce (vinyl, tape, CD) has all but disappeared
It is quite tragic when you stop and think about it!
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I just thought I would weigh i on this one, whilst Songtradr aren't perfect by any means, they do have a lot of good points, there is a 2 stage process where the submissions are reviewed, move to shortlisted, and then reviewed again and if suitable go to final selection where they are sent to the music supervisors. We have had loads of tracks reach the final selection stage which we see as a good indicator of the quality, and if they aren't chosen by the music supervisor its because they weren't quite what they wanted, not that the song wasn't good enough.
There are larger companies using Songtradr, and they don't always use the submission system, we had a license from Toyota come out of the blue, we have found that its really important to use the descriptions and metadata to ensure the tracks are discovered by the search engine on the site.
There is a free account available where you get less credits each month which are used to pay for the submissions to the deals, but you are able to purchase more credits if required, with the paid for pro account you are given plenty of credits each month. There is also a lower percentage fee taken for each deal which is successful, and the pro account also includes distribution to Spotify, iTunes etc.
I don't wish to sound like an advert for them, but we have found that they are one of the better sites for licensing at a reasonable cost, and we have investigated quite a few.
Another benefit we have recently discovered is embedding the tracks, we have built a website and embedded all of the songs from Songtradr, so you can play the song and license it direct from our site, and all the legal stuff is dealt with by Songtradr.
Back to the original point, there has been a massive drop in the deals since the coronavirus pandemic arrived, due to the fact that no-one is producing anything at the moment, we can only hope that they will be an upsurge in people wanting music when the industry returns to normality.
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Thanks @Mikey (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=20986)
That is really interesting and useful info to know
Perhaps when this pandemic is over I could reach out to SongTradr to see if we can do a special deal for the members of this forum...
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Thanks for the tip on meta data @Mikey (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=20986), I never have paid much attention to that. And getting a sync with Toyota, a global brand, is pretty impressive. I might persevere with SongTradr after all... ;D
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@Boydie (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=18510) , certainly worth a try, I pay mine monthly at $4.99 a month which is usually somewhere around the £3.50 mark, but if you do a yearly subscription they have several offers throughout the year for $35 which I may go for next time it comes up.
Have a look at our site www.atticvibes.com and you will see what I mean about embedding the tracks, has the added bonus that we don't have to host the files so keeping our webspace and bandwidth low.
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@MichaelA (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=21274) the metadata and keywords are a PITA but worth doing so that prospective buyers will actually find your track, also make sure you make up playlists of your tracks and be sure to fill in the keywords and genres for each list, also make a profile and keep it updated when you have new releases.
A bit of work but once its set up it just needs updating, also experiment with the metadata and genres as its easy to edit, you can test it by going to buyer mode and searching for tracks as a prospective buyer and checking it finds yours.
We will probably never be rich and famous (I wouldn't want the famous part anyway ), but it is nice to have a few songs get to final selection if only to prove they are decent quality.
Cheers, Mikey
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All read with much interest @Mikey (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=20986), many thanks. ;)
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@Mikey (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=20986) Thanks for weighing in and your views on ST.
I guess this whole thread has kind of made me recognize that I do get my money's worth out of ST and the reduction of opps is mainly due to the damn pandemic :D
I did notice them waning a bit before the virus hit too but maybe that was just the ebb and flow of their business.
So I'm with @MichaelA (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=21274) and will stick with them for a while longer...
I mean, what's 5 bucks a month? - - price of starbucks here is the cold-lands :D
cheers
Paul
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@MichaelA (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=21274) @Paulski (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=19241) you're welcome guys, I didn't mean to come across as a big advert for Songtrdr, but we have investigated and tried a few sites and they seem to be the best value for money even though they are by no means perfect.
We were originally disappointed with the response until we realised the importance of entering the correct metadata, keywords, and genres, its also important to monetize your tracks, we have had one of ours used several times on TikTok.
As mentioned by some of the other posters above, we aren't making much money, but we like to think that a few people are listening to our music and enjoying it.
Cheers, Mikey
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As for me, I've clearly offended two people I think highly of, so I won't be participating in any more of these types of discussions. It's not worth it.