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Songwriter Forum => Recording => Topic started by: PeteS on April 23, 2020, 10:34:49 AM
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Long post but please help! :)
I'm updating my home studio. Until now, I haven't recorded much so any old kit would do, but now I'm doing a lot more I want to update things.
I should probably start by saying that the heart of the studio will be my 2018 MacBook pro.
Audio interface - I currently have a Line 6 UX1. It's been ok but is old technology these days, only allows one input at a time, no phantom power and I need to run Pod Farm 2. Plus, that is a 32bit app so if I upgrade to Catalina it won't work.
So I am looking at either the Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 or 4i4 or the Presonus Studio 24c or Audiobox 96. The Scarletts have a great reputation but Presonus is not far behind. I'm currently favouring the Studio24c as it has high quality pre amps 2 in and out plus midi in that the Scarlett doesn't have until I get to the 4i4 which is more expensive and whilst 4 inputs may be useful at some point, I can't really see that currently so I'd prefer to save the difference. And looking at price, the Audiobox 96 is the cheapest but is a slightly lower quality than the studio.
Mic - I am using a Sennheiser e815s dynamic mic. Clearly I need to get a condenser mic for vocals and acoustic instruments. My current favourite is the Audio Technica AT2020. Good reviews and under £100.
Headphones - This is probably where my mixing suffers most. I am using a cheap(ish) pair of audio headphones. They are ok for normal use but no use for mixing. I haven't seen anything that jumps out here so your recommendations appreciated.
Monitors - I've already discussed those on her and I'm going for the PreSonus Eris E4.5s. But I'm going to delay those and use that money for some of the other stuff as I can't use the monitors at any volume with all the family around during lockdown!
So that's it, all help appreciated and if I've missed any items you think I should have, please say!
Cheers
Pete
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@PeteS (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=22588)
All good choices so far
For headphones I would recommend the KRK KNS 8400
These are really (really really really) comfortable, which is especially if you are using them for an extended period of time:
https://www.andertons.co.uk/recording/headphones/closed-back/krk-kns-8400-professional-headphones
When I need to mix on headphones I use a Focusrite VRM box, which emulates different listening environments and speaker setups - which is great for referencing mixes
Unfortunately this has now been discontinued but WAVES have their NX software, which may be worth giving a go to get the "listening to monitors in a room" experience with headphones
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Thanks @Boydie (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=18510) those headphones sound great and just about in the right price bracket!
Good shout on Waves NX, I'd seen it mentioned but didn't know what it was.
Cheers!
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I have been using a pair of AKD 712 for some years now and like them a lot but I would never again mix without the Sonarworks (sonarworks.com) software for a flat response no matter what cans I'm using. Worth every penny imo. I use it with my monitors as well (Eris E5) but I mixed exclusively on cans for many years and still do more or less, monitors are more for getting a "second opinion".
I also have the VRM box that @Boydie (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=18510) mentioned but for some reason I never liked it.
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I'm using the Scarlett 2i2 and have no complaints also I'd put a shout in for the Beringer B2 pro mic that's what I'm using and I've found it to be very good whilst acknowledging I don't have much experience with other mics for comparison
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+ 1 on the KRK cans
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@Jambrains (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=19875)
That is interesting, I didn’t rate the Sonarworks - and it even had a profile for the KRKs
There was not much difference at all so I guess the KRKs were pretty flat anyway
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I have AKG K240s (probably a bit lower price range than Jambrains') which I like for mixing. Just to note that the KRKs are closed back and both the AKGs are semi-open back - I usually use closed back for recording (better isolation) and open back for mixing (supposed to be easier on the ears for longer periods but that may be an old wives' tale).
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@Jambrains (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=19875)
That is interesting, I didn’t rate the Sonarworks - and it even had a profile for the KRKs
There was not much difference at all so I guess the KRKs were pretty flat anyway
That's odd... the average curve for the KRKs has a +6 db peak around 150 Hz, a -6 db dip at 400 Hz and -3db from 600 hz up to 3k Hz. The compensation for that should be noticeable. The K712 are a bit flatter in the lower regions but has a -6b dip at 3k and a +3db peak at 6k and there is big different between having the compensation on or off for me.
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@PeteS (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=22588) - hope we can help you...like @Jambrains (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=19875) I also do the majority of my mixing under cans, i can really recommend the AKG Q701 (open back) they are as flat as a pancake, they do not give you any misleading frequencies, many say that they are rather bass light but they aren’t it’s just that so many others ( including my audio technica atx50 tracking cans) are bass heavy.
I hardly use my mid field monitors- JBL L46 which are again flat as a pancake, but as you already know a room needs to be ‘tuned’ if you want to rely on those for your primary monitoring. I can’t recommend anything else as I just love my JBLs.
I have been in all sorts of studios and the best i heard were tannoy reds and golds but they are rather pricey.
I did a sound test at Thomann in treppendorf, Germany some years ago, they have a listening room where you can compare about 30 different pairs of monitors from cheapish to very very expensive, i spent an hour in there and only 1 pair did it for me Under £500, cant even remember what they were called but to my ears they weren’t as balanced at lo and high SPLs as my JBLs.
As for audio interfaces Ive used only focusrite and behringer and my preference is behringer (UMC1820) extremely good value for money and has many features over the focusrite.
Mic , well horses for courses, i use a beyer dymanic for cab mic , and rode NT2a for vox, NT3 for acoustic guitar and a AKG c1000s for also amp mic’ing. All good at what they do, although i would not fo for the latter again...its a bit noisey and a an odd response curve.
I also use a presonus valve mic preamp, again worth every penny, made a HUGE difference to my LVox recording, got mine 2nd hand off the Bay.
I’ve no experience of ribbon mics.
Maybe invest in a small vocal enclosure this will make your vocals much less bedroomy.
Good quality cables are also a wise investment, i can recommend van damme or sommer with Neutrik connectors,
I think in a previous post we discussed other things that also, here’s a few from experience....
A couple of good music stands, pegs for holding lyrics in place,
A good seat that’s quiet and comfy, i use a drum stool, as i can play guitars and swivel about freely, but it is a Bit squeaky nowadays.
A good quality pop filter.
Best of luck Peter, it can be an expensive hobby but get the best quality input devices, eg mic and pre amps and it’ll make the rest much easier, and as long as you can hear pretty much the same as you recorded it that’s a great start, if it sounds different then you’re already on shaky ground.
Hope this helps
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Wow! A lot to learn so thanks guys for all the input! Looking through the points:
Audio Interface - I hadn't considered the Behringer range, don't know why as we use a behringer mixer! @cowparsleyman (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=21308) the UMC1820 is a rack mount and too much for me but the smaller units in the UMC range look excellent value. The UMC 404HD gives me the safety blanket of 4 inputs so I'm taking a good look at that one.
Mic - It seems there are a lot of options and you all get decent results. I want to keep under £100 for a Condenser mic that will do vocals and guitar so that rules out Rode. So I would stick with the AT2020 but that's not available anywhere at the moment. The AKG P120 or the SE X1A both look good alternatives so I think that's where I'll head.
Headphones - Well this generated more debate and I even understood some of it :). Given I only want 1 pair of headphones at the moment, I think I'll go for closed back so I can record vocals with decent isolation, so probably the KRKs. Anyone try the slightly cheaper 6400s?
Hadn't thought of a vocal enclosure. I'll have a good look but having a quick google, they vary massively in price and size, anything specific I should be looking for?
Thanks again for all the help guys!
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@PeteS (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=22588) - personally id go for the open backs and somehow cover the leakage from the open backs as you’ll spend more time mixing than recording ...maybe...
I only needed the umc1820 as i have a drum kit plus a few other bits of kit and mics...
Best of luck with it...
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That's odd... the average curve for the KRKs has a +6 db peak around 150 Hz, a -6 db dip at 400 Hz and -3db from 600 hz up to 3k Hz. The compensation for that should be noticeable. The K712 are a bit flatter in the lower regions but has a -6b dip at 3k and a +3db peak at 6k and there is big different between having the compensation on or off for me.
@Jambrains (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=19875) - yes, I did find it odd
I am not disputing the figures but I genuinely couldn’t hear enough of a difference to justify introducing it in to my workflow
I did try it as soon as it was released so perhaps I had unrealistically high expectations - I regularly get offers sent through so perhaps I will give it another go based on your recommendation
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Hi, finding this thread really useful too since I also need a new Audio Interface (my old one is about 14 years old and seems to crackle like a log fire now). Thanks for the lead on Focusrite @PeteS (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=22588) , I think I'm going to go for the 4i4 unless anyone screams "Stop!" at me... the price difference to the 2i2 is only 30 quid it seems and that looked worth it to me for the extra inputs & MIDI etc. I did look at the Behringer UMC1820 too @cowparsleyman (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=21308) but noticed it doesn't have USB Bus power and sometimes I want to record in my car (!) using it as a vocal booth. I probably want something fairly robust and portable I can carry around in a backpack. I'll be using it with a MacBook and Logic. Reckon I'm safe to push "Buy now"?
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Hi @PaulyX (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=21034) - does the 4i4 have usb power? I had a 6i6 but found the routing sw really confusing...but it did sound pretty clean.
Best of luck with it
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Thanks @cowparsleyman (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=21308) , yes looks like it... Focusrite's website says...
The Scarlett 4i4 3rd Gen audio interface is powered via the USB connection to your Mac or PC – it does not require an external power source to function.
Needs to be USB 3 or later apparently to give enough power but looks like my Mac is just about modern enough for that.
Did you find a way round the routing confusion?
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The 4i4 looks a good bit of kit and from what I read they have vastly improved the software.
But before you buy, take a look at the Behringer 404HD. Similar spec, a little bigger, but not much, and it £99. I’ve gone for that one but like all that sort of kit, it’s sold out but mine is arriving in about 10 days.
Good luck and let us know what you choose.
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I should add that it’s slightly bigger because it has 4 combo inputs and the Scarlett only has 2 plus 2 standard line ins on the back.
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@PaulyX (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=21034) - nope it really got on my pip, heard good things about the behringer so i thought id give it a go, would not go back to scarlett, features were also thin on the ground...a shed load of very useful things...mix knob...this allows you to bring down the background of the song and effectively hear your vocal or the guitar louder... bit like a foldback monitor on stage, or in the studio.
Other things id miss are dim, adat and spdif in/ out...very useful.. i have the ultragain 8 xlr extension unit which i use for my drum outputs. This connects using adat
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But CPM, you have the much bigger model I think? At this price range I’m not sure you get those features? Although I’d still argue that the Behringer 404hd offers more than the Scarlett. I just can’t wait to get my hands on it so I can prove it
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Thanks for the tips on the call earlier @cowparsleyman (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=21308) and also @PeteS (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=22588) - in the end I've ordered a Behringer 404hd too (baaa!) as the value for money does look amazing, it has some of the features that floated your boat about the 1820 CPM, but also seems (according to reviews) to have bus power and be slightly more 'chuck-in-a-baggable' (and the number of inputs/outputs is very probably sufficient for me). Mine gets here in 1-2 weeks. Thanks guys, really useful advice.
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That's what I thought. Looks too good to turn down so I can't wait to get my hands on it! Thanks to @cowparsleyman (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=21308) for pointing me at Behringer in the first place!
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@PaulyX (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=21034) are you getting yours anytime soon? I ordered from Thomann as they seemed to have the shortest lead time but now they are saying some time in July. I’m still keen on this one given the 4 in 4 out and the price but can’t wait forever!
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Yes same here @PeteS (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=22588) , Thomann... I checked their site yesterday but it still says ‘in stock in 2-3 weeks’ which was the same when I ordered it. Well they have my money, will maybe give them another week or so and then chase them up.
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@PaulyX (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=21034) this is what I received yesterday, but only because I chased them : I am very sorry to advise you that we have just received notification from our supplier that the expected delivery date for the Behringer UMC404HD you ordered has been pushed back to 30.07.2020. by our suppliers.
I cancelled mine and got my money back yesterday but I’m not sure what I’m going to do now.
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You could try ebAy, there a few umc s on there
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I just got the same email @PeteS (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=22588) but to me they are saying 5th June... bit random innit. I’ll wait it out.
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@PeteS (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=22588) @PaulyX (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=21034) - I've been waiting for some RAM they said next day delivery not it's gone out to June sometime, but I'm in no hurry, a few weeks here and there won't matter.
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I just got the same email @PeteS (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=22588) but to me they are saying 5th June... bit random innit. I’ll wait it out.
That’s weird. I’ll contact them again because nothing else seems to be anything like as good value.
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@PeteS (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=22588) - RAM is coming today!
I suppose one can’t rely on any deliveries...
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Because I’d the Covid situation, my new gear is arriving spread over various weeks which leaves me with a question.
My Eris E5s should arrive on Wednesday, my condenser mic has arrived and is sitting on my desk frustrating me. The problem is the interface. I have a Line 6 Studio UX 1 and I’m replacing it with the Behringer 404hd but I’ve no idea when that will arrive. So in the meantime, the UX1 doesn’t have phantom power So I can’t use the mic. But the speaker outs of the UX1 just say analog out. The Eris E5s take XLR, TRS or RCA. I’m guessing that the UX1 analog outs are the equivalent of a TS guitar jack so wouldn’t work with the E5s. Anyone know if that’s right?
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@PeteS (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=22588) - i tried a couple if times to get a definitive answer for you but the line6 specs were flakey....
Pete, you might want to consider sometime in the future investing in very good cans... my preference is open back AKG Q701 they are superbly flat. and a sound stage to Dream for. I hardly use my mid field monitors. Speakers and cans can play tricks in what is actually going on frequency wise in a mix, so be prepared to find out the difference between the 2 listening environments.
There are other great open back cans available too.
The mic pres on the behringer are really good, but a valve pre will make em sound just great, not just good. But thats for the future.
I wish you well Pete , let me know when you are able to connect it all up.
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OK, It's all arrived!
I now have the Eris E5 monitors which sound great, much easier to mix on, although a lot of my mixing will still be on cans so @cowparsleyman (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=21308) I'll be looking into the ones you have recommended.
The Behringer UMC404HD was so easy to set up. As I'm on a Mac no drivers were needed and the USB power was sufficient so no external power needed. I connected the speakers, headphones, an electric guitar and a mic and recorded two tracks in Garageband straight away. Probably 10 minutes after breaking the seal on the box. So easy to control headphone volume, speaker volume and mix volume all separately. I'm loving how easy it is compared to the old UX1 I had.
SE X1A Condenser Mic, only had a little play with it so far but it sounds great, looking forward to my next full recording.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49962788778_1097be188d_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2j83mqJ)
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@PeteS (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=22588) - Good to hear, enjoy and looking forward to hearing your thoughts of the difference. the SE offers fantastic value for money.
The behringer is a real find, never looked back on the Focusrite. You might invest in a pop filter (if you don't have one already)
Let me know if I can help any more,