The Songwriter Forum - songwriting reviews, tips and chat
Songwriter Forum => Feedback on Finished songs => Topic started by: PaulAds on April 02, 2020, 08:43:31 AM
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I've posted this here in an attempt to get more forum input.
Can I interest anyone in hosting Song of The Month for March?
We had an absolutely desperate response to the February one, to be honest...especially bearing in mind how many members there are posting songs... and the whole thing seems to be on its last legs...so do we collectively want to use it or lose it?
Thoughts welcome...
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I'm up for keeping it going but as you say Paul not many folks seem to vote. Be interesting to see what others think !
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I like it - but having to struggle around for not even 20 votes for five songs seems crazy.
I think it could do with some fresh ideas...
Automation - how would this look it it were easy? Can we easily generate a list of all eligible songs into a form/poll?
Voting - why is it only the same people that vote each time? What's stopping new people? What if the poll came up on the log in screen, for more exposure?
Benchmarking - I'm not on other forums but perhaps those that are could see if there's anything we could learn from?
Or are we just flogging a deadhorse?
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Is there really any point in keeping something going that the vast majority of members are not interested in?
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I've hosted the SOTM comp a couple of times over the years and was always disappointed at the response.Having said that, if you're not on it all the time its easy to have a competition and the songs pass you by.I know I've done it lots of times over the years. So for the casual listener/poster its a big ask to participate regularly. Sorry I have no words of wisdom, just some thoughts.In a way it would be a shame to let it die, but..........
Cheers
Jamie
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1. I'm in favor of keeping it for those few who do take the time to participate. I think I've missed once or twice, but I always try to vote.
2. I've noticed, in general and for several years now, people do not participate in most things the way they used to do. The community theater group (where I lived before the stroke) is basically on hiatus because they can't get any interested organizers or even enough board directors. The local (where I live now) songwriter group has poor attendance at the quarterly gatherings plus very little response to posts on the Facebook page asking for input. I think maybe life has too much overstimulation/distraction going on. I don't mean the coronavirus...I mean--there are so many activities, so many special-interest groups--it's too easy to get far too busy. Plus there are all the electronic devices gobbling up mindless time.
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Well....I really like SOTM... Hosting it I found to be challenging but worthwhile.. And I will do it again - I was thinking of volunteering for March but I'm mad busy in work (well working from home) and I've been a little disengaged but actually maybe that would help me get back in the game... So here I am volunteering if you're ok with me taking a couple of weeks to come up with a list that will likely be longer than 5 songs, I'll do it...
I have one BIG request though.. let me make it a prerequisite actually because I KNOW it has to be possible...
I think it's a little mad that that we can't pull up a list of songs posted in a particular month so that the host of the SOTM doesn't have to plough through all the threads - it's SUCH a pain!! - and we've seen a few months where it went wrong and I suspect it's easy to miss eligible posts.. This is a BB forum sitting on a DB - I think it has to be possible to run a query to pull up all songs posted in the Songs for Review subforum within a date range..
@tone (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=1) @Boydie (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=18510) sorry - I know I may appear like a broken record but I'm sure there's a coder on here who could help with a simple query - what's your DB? SQL - I could probably dig deep and figure out the query from my basic and very rusty knowledge of SQL queries but I'm sure there are others on here be able to knock up a query in minutes!!
And.... let's try polls again. When I next host (if the consensus is that we keep it), I'll look into that...
So long story short:
Please sort out the eligible songs list
Please keep SOTM
Karen
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I'm up on SQL if you need a hand
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Cool @pompeyjazz (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=20269) - that question has to be to @tone (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=1) and @Boydie (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=18510).... And I'm making an assumption re SQL - I don't know what the forum software is sitting on...
K
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@tone (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=1) would be best to comment on the tech side of things
Unfortunately my time is taken up 100% with the Covid-19 emergency response so can't look at anything at the moment :(
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Cool @pompeyjazz (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=20269) - that question has to be to @tone (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=1)
@Boydie (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=18510).... And I'm making an assumption re SQL - I don't know what the forum software is sitting on...
K
Docs say SMF 2.0 and up can use MySQL, PostgreSQL, or SQLite. SQL in any case, if you JOIN forces with @pompeyjazz (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=20269) you'll be done in no time. ;D
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Yo. We have this discussion at least once a year I think. Yay to @MonnoDB (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=19820) for volunteering for March.
I also think the forum would be a poorer place without SOTM. Everyone is so polite, I think it is nice to have some kind of mechanism on top of that where the real gems each month get an extra spotlight... coz they usually are real gems, right?
I have wondered from time to time if there wouldn't be an easier way to run it 'automatically' rather than someone having to shortlist and host at the end of each month. For example, what if whenever you listened to and commented on a track you had the option to also give it a secret score from 1-10 depending on how much you liked it. Then at the end of the month we could just reveal the 'top ten' for that month... average score for any song that got 5 or more people scoring it... something like that. We'd only publish the top 10 scores so no one would get disheartened by getting a rock bottom score, but it would be kudos to make it into the top 10. Then maybe more people would participate because you could just be part of the process every time you reviewed a track during the month, rather than having to re-listen to songs at the end of the month. It would be more like the 'charts' for the forum I guess. Bit of tech development needed probably... but not too hard?
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Hello folks!
Yes, the forum runs on MySQL, but unfortunately it's not as simple as: just run an sql query. I mean, if someone wanted to log into phpmyadmin and run it manually, then maybe, but it's not exactly secure, and one small slip of the keyboard could lead to total disaster.
Which means someone would have to write a script to achieve the desired result, and somehow embed it into the forum software. In other words write a SMF plugin.
If any of you knows how to do that, I'm more than happy to install it.
Open to all and any suggestions, but this one is waaaaay above my paygrade when it comes to tech knowledge. I'm far from an expert in these matters.
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Thats totally f***d my IT knowledge then @tone (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=1) ;D
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This is so interesting, this may well reveal all sorts of implicit algorithmic rules that some here might not know they do, from sociological aspects such feelings of encouragement to songwriters who are starting out, disencouraging freeloaders that don’t contribute, to not voting for a winner of the previous month, this coupled with the age of the voters, those voters who don’t write songs but want to learn , the voters who are lyricists, then there’s the facinating area of popularity of genre...as someone that likes to hop about with these im always keen to see the reaction to say edm vs deep purple vs folk...i never know how a different one will be received.
When i hosted sotm last i picked my 3 favourite songs... i did not consider anything else, i didn’t think it needed to be any more than that... but i had the feeling afterwards that i didn’t follow the established protocol.
Anyway hope the techie whizzos get a solution, best of luck
Do we get to vote on the solution proposals? 8)
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Isn’t paulski a web developer?
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I've hosted SOTM a couple of times. When doing so I finally came round to choosing my shortlist based on the number of favourable reviews a song has had. That made me select some songs that weren't necessarily my personal faves, but were obviously the most favoured by forum members. But all that takes time, and sometimes the amount of votes received makes the whole exercise seem less than rewarding.
The last time I hosted it one of the winning placings and one of the close runners up didn't even come on to acknowledge the vote or say thanks. One of my nominations didn't even vote. So I thought there was too much apathy for the thing to legitimately continue.
So if it does continue I would be in favour of a more automated mechanism.
In the past, in real life ie retail ecommerce, I have commissioned developers to install star rating reviews on product pages. If we had this, whenever we each did a normal review we would also get the chance to add a star rating.
At the end of the month SOTM would simply be the song that had been awarded the most stars.
This also takes away the sometime quite arbitrary selection of nominees by any particular month's hosting member. Every response to a song would mean something and that's far more democratic and fair. But it would mean someone would have to step forward to install a star rating plug in on the forum. Probably not that hard. But also an administrator or member with permission to inspect the back end would have to take responsibility for announcing the winner.
Compared to other forums I have been on, for songwriting and other interests, this forum seems very 'self managed' by ordinary members and with little input from the 'owners' or the usual 'moderators' I normally see elsewhere. So initiatives will inevitably drift. That's another delicate but important subject!
But carrying on SOTM in the current arbitrary and semi-forced way - well sadly it's only heading in one direction. So Star Ratings leading to an automated winner would be my preference.
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Isn’t paulski a web developer?
I've done some - but mostly work with Java applications.
I like the SOTM contests but lately haven't had time to listen and vote - my bad.
Participation waxes and wanes in these contests, but even if only the nominees vote I think it's still fun.
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@MichaelA (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=21274) +1 for star rating , then all the things behind the vote are included in the rating
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In the past, in real life ie retail ecommerce, I have commissioned developers to install star rating reviews on product pages. If we had this, whenever we each did a normal review we would also get the chance to add a star rating.
I think this is where I have a bit of a problem with star ratings or votes for songs - they are simply not “products”
I have made no secret that I personally don’t like the idea of songwriting “competitions” as it is soooo subjective and despite the “it is all just a bit of fun” element some songwriters/artistic types have very fragile egos so I can’t help thinking that the 1 winner is “happy” but everyone else is disappointed
I also think it would be very demoralising for someone new to songwriting, and the forum, to keep getting “1 star” scores for every song they post - which is why the ethos of the song reviewing is all about “supportive, constructive criticism” - which I think this forum strikes the right balance of more than any other forum I have seen (which is all down to you guys :-*)
HOWEVER - I do like the concept of “SOTM” to highlight some of the outstanding songs that are constantly being posted and I agree that there should be some kind of formal recognition on a regular basis - but how we effectively manage this without introducing a system that would discourage aspiring writers is a bit of a challenge
Perhaps we should look at this from a different angle...
How about reducing the frequency (quarterly?) and each member is eligible to SUBMIT 1 song for consideration that has been posted in the previous quarter
This would then put the onus on the members to submit the songs (perhaps in to a separate forum area we could create) by a specific deadline
This would mean those that don’t want to be “put up” don’t have to and it will cut the time taken to trawl through loads of forum posts and check dates etc. as the member would do this as part of their submission
We could then have a “panel” of people review the songs and decide a winner and a few “panel picks” that we can do something to showcase for the next quarter
Then this is the bit I think would address my nervousness about the competition element...
A condition of entry would be that if you win you need to give a brief summary of how you wrote, recorded, produced the song - eg like a magazine interview - which would not only give the winner some kudos - but it would also directly help aspiring writers improve, which must remain the primary role of this forum
My $0.02 to help the discussion
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In the past, in real life ie retail ecommerce, I have commissioned developers to install star rating reviews on product pages. If we had this, whenever we each did a normal review we would also get the chance to add a star rating.
I think this is where I have a bit of a problem with star ratings or votes for songs - they are simply not “products”
I have made no secret that I personally don’t like the idea of songwriting “competitions” as it is soooo subjective and despite the “it is all just a bit of fun” element some songwriters/artistic types have very fragile egos so I can’t help thinking that the 1 winner is “happy” but everyone else is disappointed
I also think it would be very demoralising for someone new to songwriting, and the forum, to keep getting “1 star” scores for every song they post - which is why the ethos of the song reviewing is all about “supportive, constructive criticism” - which I think this forum strikes the right balance of more than any other forum I have seen (which is all down to you guys :-*)
HOWEVER - I do like the concept of “SOTM” to highlight some of the outstanding songs that are constantly being posted and I agree that there should be some kind of formal recognition on a regular basis - but how we effectively manage this without introducing a system that would discourage aspiring writers is a bit of a challenge
Perhaps we should look at this from a different angle...
How about reducing the frequency (quarterly?) and each member is eligible to SUBMIT 1 song for consideration that has been posted in the previous quarter
This would then put the onus on the members to submit the songs (perhaps in to a separate forum area we could create) by a specific deadline
This would mean those that don’t want to be “put up” don’t have to and it will cut the time taken to trawl through loads of forum posts and check dates etc. as the member would do this as part of their submission
We could then have a “panel” of people review the songs and decide a winner and a few “panel picks” that we can do something to showcase for the next quarter
Then this is the bit I think would address my nervousness about the competition element...
A condition of entry would be that if you win you need to give a brief summary of how you wrote, recorded, produced the song - eg like a magazine interview - which would not only give the winner some kudos - but it would also directly help aspiring writers improve, which must remain the primary role of this forum
My $0.02 to help the discussion
I really like this idea in all of it's parts, especially the 'How it was done" bit. However you mentioned before to a couple of forum members that how can they be both learners and teachers?, I sometimes have a brief moment of "am i qualified to give advice AND receive it"? but I guess I am, I can always learn and I do have some of knowledge & experience to share to help other members.
Anyway yip, great idea Boydie
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Yo. We have this discussion at least once a year I think. Yay to @MonnoDB (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=19820) for volunteering for March.
I also think the forum would be a poorer place without SOTM. Everyone is so polite, I think it is nice to have some kind of mechanism on top of that where the real gems each month get an extra spotlight... coz they usually are real gems, right?
I have wondered from time to time if there wouldn't be an easier way to run it 'automatically' rather than someone having to shortlist and host at the end of each month. For example, what if whenever you listened to and commented on a track you had the option to also give it a secret score from 1-10 depending on how much you liked it. Then at the end of the month we could just reveal the 'top ten' for that month... average score for any song that got 5 or more people scoring it... something like that. We'd only publish the top 10 scores so no one would get disheartened by getting a rock bottom score, but it would be kudos to make it into the top 10. Then maybe more people would participate because you could just be part of the process every time you reviewed a track during the month, rather than having to re-listen to songs at the end of the month. It would be more like the 'charts' for the forum I guess. Bit of tech development needed probably... but not too hard?
+ 1 to those suggestions
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As one of those pricks who never votes I have given myself a severe thrashing & promise to vote in future.
I think it would be a shame if you/we binned it but thats easy for me to say isn`t it?
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Great input from everyone... Ta.
Anybody fancy joining in to have an informal chat about this...along with anything else you fancy talking about?
http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=17333.60
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Hi, I can't join the chat tonight but to chip in, when Boydie says...
"I also think it would be very demoralising for someone new to songwriting, and the forum, to keep getting “1 star” scores for every song they post"
... yeah I agree with that... that's where the suggestion to keep scores secret and only publish the top 10 came from. I.e. You wouldn't know your score unless it was a pretty good one.
Personally I'm not so keen on the quarterly idea (feels too long to me) or the idea of having to put one of your own songs forward. Nominating your own stuff always feel too self-aggrandising to me.
Anyway there's my penn'orth... have a good chat those of you who can join it.
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Also won't be around this evening but I think keeping this going somehow with less work and more participation would be a "good thing", as it gives a selection of songs a bit more profile, recognition and listens. That's it really! Cheers everyone.
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I can't be at the chat tonight, either, so here's an additional thought. I'm okay with quarterly, and I'm thinking of the theme challenges we have from time to time. Could we make those quarterly instead of whenever someone brings it up? And people could then "enter" (rather than "nominate themselves"). They could be themed or not--maybe some of each or whatever the host(s) decide.
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Interesting read...
So I too would not be in favour of having to nominate yourself - I think that would be hard.. I think what's nice about the current host set up is that it is actually subjective and therefore one person's personal taste.. sometimes I'm very surprised by the songs that are omitted and the songs included... but that's part of the fun...
The last time I ran it I had 18 votes - not fabulous but not too shabby either... I think compared to active members it probably works..
So I would be in favour of keeping it monthly and hosted.. I see that there doesn't seem to be anyone who can write me my script and I've had a look at the search functionality and although you can search by subforum within a date range, you can't actually do a wildcard search so there's no way for me to pull up all the March songs apart from the usual REALLY time-consuming and not foolproof method of going into each thread so I have a request / suggestion to make life easier for the host...
Can we put the Month Name in the Subject line - then I can search for all of the March songs - or simply see them :) with my eyes !! While you guys decide on the best approach going forward.. That's my quick & dirty solution to March - I'll do the hosting if all of those with March songs do a quick subject edit? What say you? Obviously I'll put up a thread requesting that separately to catch everyone...
K
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@MonnoDB (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=19820) Karen - I'm quite happy to trawl through the eligible songs (From members with 100+ posts) Over the next couple of days. Got some time on my hands ;D ;D and let you have the list
Cheers
John
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Perhaps there's room for something like a random(ish) member volunteers/is pressganged into choosing some songs from the last month they like or have piqued their interest and showcase them, explaining why they like them and maybe even managing a quick Q&A with the artists regarding those songs.
It would be sort of a competition without any actual winners and losers...
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@MonnoDB (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=19820) Karen - I'm quite happy to trawl through the eligible songs (From members with 100+ posts) Over the next couple of days. Got some time on my hands ;D ;D and let you have the list
Cheers
John
@pompeyjazz (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=20269) - thanks so much John!!! But let me ask people to edit their posts.. it’s not a big ask and it should make the task much easier. I’ll put up a post requesting this later...
K
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OK @MonnoDB (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=19820) - Let me know if you want me to help out anyway :)
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OK @MonnoDB (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=19820) - Let me know if you want me to help out anyway :)
Thanks John @pompeyjazz (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=20269) - will do :) !
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@MonnoDB (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=19820)
But let me ask people to edit their posts.. it’s not a big ask and it should make the task much easier. I’ll put up a post requesting this later...
Could you please hold fire on this
I don't want to change the whole operation of the forum to serve the song of the month competition
The main purpose of the forum is the community and reviewing songs so I don't want to introduce something like this without more time thinking it through
Many people may not be interested in the SOTM so trying to enforce a new rule means that moderators would need to enforce the rules etc.
I am interested to hear more views and the points raised in the discussion so please don't make any changes to the operation of the forum
I am not being grumpy - I just know from experience that small changes can have unintended consequences and as the owner of the forum I need to give any changes proper consideration before agreeing to them being implemented
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@MonnoDB (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=19820)
But let me ask people to edit their posts.. it’s not a big ask and it should make the task much easier. I’ll put up a post requesting this later...
Could you please hold fire on this
I don't want to change the whole operation of the forum to serve the song of the month competition
The main purpose of the forum is the community and reviewing songs so I don't want to introduce something like this without more time thinking it through
Many people may not be interested in the SOTM so trying to enforce a new rule means that moderators would need to enforce the rules etc.
I am interested to hear more views and the points raised in the discussion so please don't make any changes to the operation of the forum
I am not being grumpy - I just know from experience that small changes can have unintended consequences and as the owner of the forum I need to give any changes proper consideration before agreeing to them being implemented
No probs @Boydie (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=18510). Apologies for causing consternation.. Can you please delete my post in the Competitions subforum then as I don't appear to be able to delete my own post.
Let me know what you decide.
I also don't mean to be grumpy but I'm afraid I'm not willing to trawl through every post in Songs for Review to see what date they were posted in order to host the SOTM. I don't have the time and it's an unnecessary overhead to running the comp and as it's manual it's very much prone to error. I'll await the verdict and hold off on hosting SOTM until a decision is made.
Karen
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I'm happy to host if you need one. I've got a little time on my hands too at the moment (11 weeks more of self-iso according to my doctors' orders! :P )
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I'm happy to host if you need one. I've got a little time on my hands too at the moment (11 weeks more of self-iso according to my doctors' orders! :P )
Sounds like a plan @Sterix (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=22024) !! Handing the baton over to you... Thanks a mill! :-)
K
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@MonnoDB (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=19820)
Thanks Karen
I also don't mean to be grumpy but I'm afraid I'm not willing to trawl through every post in Songs for Review to see what date they were posted in order to host the SOTM. I don't have the time and it's an unnecessary overhead to running the comp and as it's manual it's very much prone to error
I completely agree with this, which is why I want us to come up with an "elegant" solution to make everyone's life as easy as possible
It is really hard coming up with a solution that will please everyone (ie the people taking part in the discussions naturally like the competition element but I am aware there are lots that don't) so I think it is a good opportunity to discuss the whole approach - and I am sure if we all put our heads together we can come up with something AMAZING with the wonderful creative minds we have on this forum
I really do appreciate the time and effort members put in to running the events so I would like to find a way to make it as easy as possible!! - keep the discussion going and please feedback any points discussed during the online meetings
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@MonoDB. No problem. I'll get to work shortly. I agree with finding an elegant solution for it. It can be a lot of hard work (I take it seriously and listen - at least in part - to EVERY eligible song posted in the time frame).
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Way to go, @Sterix (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=22024) :)