The Songwriter Forum - songwriting reviews, tips and chat
Songwriter Forum => Recording => Topic started by: Cawproductions on February 16, 2020, 01:45:39 PM
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Hi all.
I am bracing myself for an onslaught of possible abuse here.
Question: Do most lower end DAWS (ie, not the pro versions) come with some sort of Vocal tuning.
I hear so many great songs in the amateur arena and most of them have pitchy vocals in places.
It got me thinking, as the vocal is mostly the focal point of a track why do people not spend time to fix slight errors.
Is it because tuning software is pricey or some Daws dont come with even a basic version of this or people just dont do it as it takes a lot time to do accurately.
Or simply that people dont like tuned vocals, now I am not talking about the horrific Cher thing or some guy called T payne..just minor pitch fixes on phrases.
Ok, whooooaaa, I am no pro singer and my vocal needs a TON of work...Turds and Polishing springs to mind here.
On a rainy Sunday afternoon, it got me wondering.
Happy Sunday people.
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Hi @Cawproductions (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=20938) Reaper comes with it's own built in tuner, Reatune. There are automatic and manual modes. I have used it on occasions mainly in manual mode as I've found that auto mode can produce some unexpected results. It's pretty fiddly to get right though and I'm guessing that's why a lot of people dont use it. Interesting thread Andy
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Interesting thread...
I wouldn’t know if the cheaper daws have it, but even if they did it’s not always something that is felt to be necessary, as some vocalists can’t hear that they are out of tune, i one had a heated discussion with someone that swore blind they were completely in tune when they were way way off.
Yip i do use melodyne from time to time and yes it’s complicated and time consuming but very very effective and pretty expensive. I always recommend it as the results are invisible and lovely Perfecly aligned harmonies above ones range are completely achievable, they can sound female if the formant is tweaked upwards a tad.
It suppose it depends on whether it’s a priority, as you say, some songs sound better with a bit of edgey realism.
Its so difficult to sing in tune, especially if it’s at the limit of ones range....
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Yes. Really interesting.
I think the vocal can have some edge.
But too much edge will ruin a fine song.
The difference between some and too much is decided differently by different people.
It's quite tricky. I'm learning all the time, everytime I produce.
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Hi guys, Thanks for all getting involved.
IMHO, every vocal needs some tuning work to sound "Polished", I have watched documentaries on professional singers that have recorded the most amazing vocal, Then when the engineer adds the subtle tuning, then and only then do you hear that magic.
I guess what I am saying is that our ear will handle a very slight error in tuning then after that it sounds out of tune but when its bang on, we instantly feel that its right.
But, hey, i like vocals to be accurate in pitch but i can appreciate that different styles do not always demand this.
Like i meantioned before, I am defo not the best singer on here but I do like my vocal pitch to be as close as poss. Its a style thing.
Thanks again guys, interesting to get other peoples opinion.
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I was thinking about this yesterday.
I'm in the middle of trying to write 14 songs in February (February album writing month or FAWM) which is pretty hard work.
I've written a few songs in one day...recorded all the parts and then written lyrics to go with them...and when it came to record the vocal...i genuinely didn't know how to sing it as i hadn't even actually heard the song before. It just made me realise that the generally accepted key to being able to do things really well is through repetition.
I nearly always record a vocal as soon as I have figured how i want it to go...and in the excitement of having made a new song...I invariably think i'll go back and record it properly...but hardly ever do. Which is a bit daft really because as you say, the vocal can be super important. My usual cop-out is that all my stuff is just amateur demos and if anyone actually needed a better vocal, i could always do one. I don't like to get bogged down, though...so i tend to plough through them and move on.
The real dream, if any of us have one, i guess, is that one of our songs might get picked up by an established artist...and they'd do their own far better version anyway...so i don't worry about it because (A) I'm more likely to be ran over by Prince Phillip giving the Queen a piggy-back and (B) As long as I can make a demo sound of a reasonable enough quality for the song to be heard properly...I'll settle for that.
If I was trying to write with a view to selling any of my songs...I'd perhaps have to bust my buttons a bit more...but I'm not.
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Hi Paul,
Fair comment,
yeh I agree, most of us in here are putting out good quality Demos. I had not thought of it that way.
For Mikey and myself, we market our tracks to media companies and offer them for sync and licencing so I put a lot of effort into getting them the best I can. its important for us to offer the very best quality we can achieve, both mix wise and musicaly.
But yes certainly as songwriters, prob not a major factor.
Great chat everyone.
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To answer the original question with sonar cakewalk studio I get melodyne 4. I’ve also bought a wavestune, not sure vin I’ve ever used it, and I tops nectar has some pitch correction in it.
But to be honest I only occasionally delve into melodynes world, a lord knows I need it, because it’s fiddly to use and whilst it sounds corrected it still can sound a bit artificial.
So I try and then decide I’d be better off trying to get a better vocal take..
I want to sound natural without pitchyness, so had so vocal lessons, which I now need to apply consistently :-(
Neil
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I tune everything. Always. I don't think you can hear the tuning much - but you can definitely hear the offness without. I can't bear to release something that isn't as good as I can make it... which may still fall down in comparison to others but that's not the point... And yes, I think everyone has access to a more or less good tuning plugin for free so they should learn how to use it (took me a while to actually figure it out!)
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I was thinking about this yesterday.
I'm in the middle of trying to write 14 songs in February (February album writing month or FAWM) which is pretty hard work.
I've written a few songs in one day...recorded all the parts and then written lyrics to go with them...and when it came to record the vocal...i genuinely didn't know how to sing it as i hadn't even actually heard the song before. It just made me realise that the generally accepted key to being able to do things really well is through repetition.
I nearly always record a vocal as soon as I have figured how i want it to go...and in the excitement of having made a new song...I invariably think i'll go back and record it properly...but hardly ever do. Which is a bit daft really because as you say, the vocal can be super important. My usual cop-out is that all my stuff is just amateur demos and if anyone actually needed a better vocal, i could always do one. I don't like to get bogged down, though...so i tend to plough through them and move on.
The real dream, if any of us have one, i guess, is that one of our songs might get picked up by an established artist...and they'd do their own far better version anyway...so i don't worry about it because (A) I'm more likely to be ran over by Prince Phillip giving the Queen a piggy-back and (B) As long as I can make a demo sound of a reasonable enough quality for the song to be heard properly...I'll settle for that.
If I was trying to write with a view to selling any of my songs...I'd perhaps have to bust my buttons a bit more...but I'm not.
This is an interesting thread.
And an excellent post there from @PaulAds (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=20253).
Stunningly talented and modest. Interesting point there with repeating the exercises, not sure if I can agree with it though.
It's strange, I like queen and john cale but although I find freddy's voice amazing at times I find cales voice more interesting.
It is a dream I have that an established artist takes a song of mine and makes it a massive earner (for me)
In more sober moments though I know there are so very many talented composers about, if ever I write that dream song, the odds anything will come of it in a commercial way are incredibly slight.
I dont consider it a healthy dream.
A girlfriend recently asked how long I wanted to continue with songwriting.
I told, her, I dunno, at a guess, for as long as I'm physically capable.
She went quietly angry. Talking was never her forte. The end of that relationship was a relief.
I want to move in the non commercial direction. I'm having a great and challenging time of it creatively. I dare say becoming the best writing musician one can be doesn't necessarily increase ones chances of finding commercial success.
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The most interesting thing I find about tuning vocals (and I am a Melodyne ninja!) is finding the “golden nugget” bits of vocals that are technically “off pitch” but sound great and add character to the vocal performance
So I guess my personal approach is that I tend to always do a vocal tuning pass BUT I don’t tune every vocal - and have even nudged a few “off pitch” to achieve a certain vibe
I agree 100% with @Neil C (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=18856) about the vocal PERFORMANCE being the most important thing - but if tuning the vocals (or using compression, eq, effects etc.) can ENHANCE the performance and increase the emotional impact of the song then I would not hesitate to use any tool available to me
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Hmm, I have to say off the bat that I truly dislike all sorts of tuning devices on the vocals. I'm a firm believer that you continue to track the vocals until you have a solid take. This is my stance 2020 and have been for a lot of years. To me, it makes for greater life in the recording.
Now, with that said, once upon a time when I did work in the industry, I was an avid user of them all. To the degree that I feel I was part of the whole downfall of what I think the recording process is all about today. When auto-tune first arrived we all just freaked out!!! You know, suddenly you could fix it in the mix?!! Today, it's way too much devices fixing average to downright awful performances. I don't think it's good, and absolutely not necessary, not on a personal level and not for the business. This is just how I personally feel.
In the beginning, it was supposed to help you fix stuff that wasn't fixable, in that sense I can understand and approve of it, a note here and there fine, but today it sets the standard for what we believe is normal. It's used on everything. On whole takes. Even on takes that absolutely needs no fixing. Today you can hardly release a song without having the vocals tuned or tampered with, because listeners expect it to be that way. Their ears are accustomed to it.
I believe we're going in the wrong direction, and I believe music is taking the hit for it.
Hehe, damn, apparently I feel strongly about this subject.
So in summary, if it's used sparsely and where need be, sure, but that's not where we're at as of today unfortunately.
I give you an example. Here's a great singer and a great song. One acoustic version and a studio version. In the studio version, there's absolutely no need for his vocals to go through auto tune and whatnot, the overall result and all it's doing is taking the life of his natural performance. On the contrary, they would 've benefitted far more if they'd stayed away from all unnecessary effects, the usual suspects, and been brave enough producers to boldly capture his natural performance which is stunning. Please do compare the two versions, I believe there's a significant difference.
FWIW, my 0.2
//Peter
Studio:
Acoustic:
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Hi all.
very interesting to hear everyones opinion.
I guess my original post was mainly aimed at very Amateur performers, Bedroom producers, players etc. Like a lot of us in here.
I never understand why you wouldnt a vocal to be pleasing to the ear and a slightly pitchy vocal troubles our musical emotions. Does mine anyway.
I do agree that a great perfomance that is fixed up pitch wise, will always sound better than a lifeless perfectly tuned one.
In a professional world, you would be working with the best talent, retaking to get that perfect vocal (or the best on the day), best gear etc, but dont think I am alone in saying that our hobbies/obsessions only start when our days jobs are finished.
I run melodyne everytime and listen for anything thats not right, I never just select all then move to pitch because the little blob isnt on the correct line. Thats a recipe for disaster. Also I never use the auto pitch on main vocals but I do on backing Vocals, usually tuning hardish.....
Still, if only I was S**t hot at singing I wouldnt need all this stuff. Pahahaha
Andy
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I never understand why you wouldnt a vocal to be pleasing to the ear
To clarify.
Neither do I.
But standard procedure today, at home or pro studio, is to use pitch correction tools way too early in the process, instead of going the extra mile for a better take.
Sadly, the more lifeless result it generates is widely accepted today.
Therein lies my problem.
Aiming for a perfect vocal take, pleasing to the ear, is nothing I have a problem with. On the contrary. I think it's crucial.
Ah well, pitch correction tools, overused as they are today, I think it's a dangerous path that's all. A path I believe we'd all be better off if it were treaded more lightly.
All the best,
//Peter
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In a professional world, you would be working with the best talent,
Oh I wish that was true, hehe, you'd be surprised how that is not the case. Back in the day, I've worked with artists that haven't been able to produce a single note in pitch. How so? Because everybody and their mother believed we could fix it later with the very tools we are talking about in this thread.
In a few cases it's true. You work with true talent, and it is a blessing. But in most cases, especially just below stardom, artists who's trying to make it and haven't already, which is the majority, the industry thinks everything is fixable, as long as you look good and can produce some sort of sound when you open your mouth you're good to go.
It was a few years back and it was crazy but I have a notion nothing has changed since.
/Peter
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Hi Peter
Great insight into the pro world,
For most of us, we are just trying to follow our passion for songwriting, playing and recording.
As a follow on from my original post, its been interesting to hear, When people use tuning, how much and what type.
I did hear an interview with Ralph Mctell, and he was saying that digital recording has killed music, stating that the art and skill of the single take has gone, But we could start a whole new discussion on that.
This has been an interesting topic.
Cheers
Andy
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I tune everything. Always. I don't think you can hear the tuning much - but you can definitely hear the offness without. I can't bear to release something that isn't as good as I can make it... which may still fall down in comparison to others but that's not the point... And yes, I think everyone has access to a more or less good tuning plugin for free so they should learn how to use it (took me a while to actually figure it out!)
@adamfarr (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=20124) that was exactly what I used to do, and for those exact same reasons. When @Boydie (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=18510) mixed and mastered my last album, after doing about three songs, he suggested that I be really brave and send over vocals that hadn’t been pitch corrected. To say I felt rather “exposed” was an understatement!
It was a real learning point for me. Tune what you need to, but if it sounds good, leave it alone. Once again, it is a question of having the confidence to trust your ears, rather than your eyes which is showing you sang a particular note sharp or flat.
The danger, and what was happening with me was that, yes I had previously presented songs with 100% pitch perfect vocals, but this was at the expense of feeling and expression.
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"Or simply that people dont like tuned vocals, now I am not talking about the horrific Cher thing or some guy called T payne..just minor pitch fixes on phrases."
Yes, this. I don't want to have my pitch corrected. I would rather do 30 takes and get it almost right than have it tuned to perfection afterwards. I also don't like editing out flubs, so if I screw up while recording, I re-record the whole track from the beginning. If I don't get it right, I know you'll tell me so, and that's fine. Then I know what to work on. So yes, for me it's a conscious decision. I'd prefer that that vocal tuning software didn't exist. If your vocal needs a ton of work, then take voice lessons. I don't mean that to be mean. That's just what singers have always done. Sing more.
As songwriters, do what you need to to get a better shot at getting your song produced. But everything that the S said above is right on. If you're a singer, you should be able to carry a tune.
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+1 for redrhodie's post, best to keep on tracking till you get it right, this has the pleasing side effect of making you a better singer, every new song I start with is out of tune all over the place but after the 30th/40th take I start to feel like I have a lot more more space in the song and it just gets better and better...the only way to go :)
absoloutley nothing against peeps using it though, I'm not a purist, the end justifies the means..or is it the means justifies the end ??? :-\ ::) never can remember that ;D
If having pitch correction enables a good songwriter but a poor singer to get a song out there, so be it, use whatever tech is available 8)
end of the day, it's about the song..not how it got to be a song, the average listener doesn't care.
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An interesting read, especially @redrhodie (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=21171) - just finished an all vocal tracking Session, from Lead vocals, to layers of BVs.
There really is no substitute for rehearsal, in that, if one practices the lines 30 times, pay particular attention to note lengths and dynamics before switching on the mic, (it’s a beautiful thing when 4 bv’s move dynamically together, that is quiet to loud and back again, remember watching a church choir? And thinking wow, how skilful, but it’s just having a vision and then practice) i would recommend planning the bv’s ahead of recording, thats easier after the lvox has been tracked.
Maybe have a piano alongside, so the harmonies can be designed a bit easier.
Hope this helps
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Hi all,
Been running along with all these comments and yeh totally agree, practice makes perfect, Did someone say 30 - 40 takes, I find my first 5 takes are in progress, then I hit a sweet spot where the tone is getting better and I am getting used the flow of the lines, so maybe another 3 good takes, then from that point on, its usually downhill. Throats get sore, especially on shouty tracks.
As I do all the vocals on our tracks, some have 16 lanes of lead and BVs, I find you have to know when your are in the zone and not keep going if its sh*t. You cant fix it in the mix.
But I wasn't talking about Vocalists specifically, they know their craft, engineers know their craft, fact is, in this forum, I would say most of us are trying to be all things to our projects, that was kinda my vibe.
Anyway, interesting read
ps, if in doubt, wind the autotune to 11.5 and we can fix it later...happy days
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Hi all, just to add my threepence worth, I too have been following this thread with interest and there are many good points made here, and I suppose it suggests there is nothing to beat really knowing the song inside out before trying to get a good vocal take. The first takes are always woeful as you play with the phrasing and try to get the timing and pitch right, but eventually it improves to the point where getting a good take and tweaking it to get all the pitchy bits sorted is my preferred method.I am not skilful enough to cobble together a multitude of takes to make a complete performance.Virtually all my songs are a one take vocal performance (sections of harmonies and doubles are easy to do as sections though).Also as most know doubling a vocal can hide a multitude of sins too :o. I have logic pro x and it has an auto tune for the whole track and that can give some 'interesting' results, so I tend to use it judicially.
But, also as someone said before, if you need it to get a great sounding song, use it. It's a tool to be used, and its' no surprise to me that the truly great singers make a fortune from singing, because it's not that easy.......
Good thread.
Cheers
Jamie
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I've never used tuning - not sure it would make me sound much better - just exaggerate how bad I sound.
I really loathe any sort of tuning you can hear - like the Cher thing; makes me want to break things. I'd much rather hear an imperfect vocal.
If people use tuning and it's not obvious, then more power to their elbow if it produces the results they want to hear.
Personally I just use what Katja sends me and run with it.
It's just nice to hear someone sing well what I can't. :D
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So interesting this thread, even brilliant vocalists are not always in tune, or in time, but as this is about tune, I'll stick to that. @Cawproductions (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=20938) is right there is a sweet spot, and when it's gone it's blimmin well gone..., so that's another tip, track all takes...you never know the availability of the Vocalist after that session, not their appitite to do any more sessions thereafter, if it's a long distance collab get them to send EVERYTHING, warts n all, I've certainly used bits of one song on another... Vocal takes are gold dust.
What Melodyne does do is to make a great vocal line perfect, you can see very small inaccuracies, which are really subliminal, but some folk can hear, this resolves these, and on the whole vocalists love it too, sounding very polished, often I have been told with a bunch of stems "forgive my crap singing' but it's not crap singing, it's brilliant, the passion for the words, the approach, the melody line, the dynamics all great, but a little off beam, now I'm not going to ask for that again, I can fix it, if I have the right tools.
Hope this helps.
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I use a melodyne on all of my vocals, so before anyone goes all wobbly,
If I have to move a not a whole semitone then I have clearly messed it up, but if I feel I put in a good take emotionally I will try and fix it, but am very well aware, turds cannot be polished very well.
The video link included shows how Melodyne can take a really good vocal and make it great.
This was the basis of my original post, NOT Autotune which IMHO sounds horrific
Enjoy
This video pretty much hammers home why popular tracks are done this way.
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Just imagine how good Freddy Mercury, Sinatra, Elvis and The Beatles could have been 😀
I worry because so much of modern life turns to bollocks in the name of progress.
They can present Harry Kane with all the golden boots they can be arsed with and award him with beard of the year or whatever...but they can’t turn him into Jimmy Greaves.
It’s the human element that people really connect with, isn’t it?
Rather than perfection...or worse still, fake perfection.
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I given up messing about with any auto tune stuff. I'd prefer my vocal stuff to be heard raw and preferably in the first few takes as even though it will be imperfect it's a truer reflection of myself and that's all I want to convey in my songs :)
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@Cawproductions (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=20938) - in my opinion Autotune sounds awful and wouldn't touch them with ten barge poles lashed together with really strong fluffy brown string, and held tight by a really strong person putting their finger over it while you tie your best knot, and then inevitably doing the knot a second time, to make sure.
Melodyne is a blessing, especially for me whose upper range has a rather sudden ceiling that is preluded by a husky dry rush of out-of-tune air, akin to practising my last breath.
I (and all the other vocalists I have worked with) always try to sing in tune, but sometimes it just doesn't happen, on one ocaasion both I and the BV vocalist, had sore throats, and melodyne was a godsend, neither of us could do re takes, so I picked the best tracks and Melodyned them as best I could, and as Oliver Hardy would say, "Nobody is any the wiser, Stanley"
As @pompeyjazz (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=20269) said, there is always the option not to use it, if one wants to keep the feel and passion of the slightly off notes, and yip I use that approach to, very often, in fact most of my songs are not melodyned, but it's very very useful when you are faced with a situation such as: The song is nearly ready but that one off note stands out like a sore thumb, the vocalist has long gone...
Hope this helps.
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I got waves tune as part of a bundle I bought when I started writing again about five years ago. Tried it once or twice as I was having real problems with my voice. I didn't like the sound of it and found it really complicated to use and never touched it since.
I've done demos of songs and had a bit of a kicking for being unable to sing them really well...which is fair enough. I have said before on here that I would never have joined a Singers Forum...but I would give a Songwriters Forum a go.
I'm sure that everybody on here who writes a song will do their best to sing it as well as they can and record the result as best they can. They will then probably mix the track as best they can under the various constraints of time/ability/money/facilities/knowledge etc in order to create their own songs. Good luck to them all and gawd bless everyone for putting their assets on the line. It must be so much easier to grab a mic when you know you are going to sound great.
In an ideal world, I'd like to hear a great song with a great vocal but I think - on a songwriters forum - It's more about the song than the singer.
And if it needs a perfect vocal...doesn't it also need perfect lyrics? A perfect melody?
Anyway...a great discussion...one of the best we've had here...thanks for all the input from everyone 😃
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All pretty interesting and quite a range of opinion out there. Tuning seems to get an especially bad rap - why should it be regarded any differently to EQ, compression, reverb...?
As an "improving" singer I have to say I prefer my own vocals with a bit of tuning where needed (though some days it seems that, as Jason Derulo almost said, It's only needed when I'm breathing...). For those that are more in the Harry Kane league then there may be more options!
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Did you use any tuning on the vocal you sent me for "animals" @adamfarr (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=20124)?
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@adamfarr (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=20124) - "Tuning seems to get an especially bad rap - why should it be regarded any differently to EQ, compression, reverb..." maybe they are subtley different...EQ and compression changes the sound of the clothing of the note, not the note itself.
Put it this way, would you keep a bum note on a guitar solo? or a drum beat out of time?
For those that have played live...Did you ever feel that burning embarrassment of that hugely wrong note in your Guitar Solo? that you'd swear you'd never do again.
Then why would you allow a wrong note to be kept forever on your song? yes this is not a pro forum, but over the years, there have been some here that would like to take things further, and justifiably so, there have been many songs here that really deserve much wider exposure.
Great thread
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Reminds me of an interview with Scotty Moore who was asked how he came up with such interesting and groundbreaking stuff...and on at least one solo...he admitted he’d just played the odd wrong note...and everyone thought it was an off-the-wall stroke of genius.
I guess that’s why they’re called “accidentals”
I’ll be playing at Peterlee Central Club tonight and imagine I’ll drop a few clangers, as usual...more often than not, it’s really funny and odd few who spot it don’t seem to care. It’s not something that bothers me unduly. Then again to be fair, I hope to be mostly on the money 99% of the time.
I had the misfortune of catching some of “whiskey in the jar” on the wireless yesterday...and one of the guitar solos has an iffy note in it to my ears...and there usually seems to be no bass guitar on there at all...which was maybe a conscious or perhaps semi-conscious decision. I always thought there was a bum note in “bat out of hell” on the accented “like a sinner before the gates of heaven” bit. I think the bass plays a wrong note on the rundown at the fade out of “daydream believer” too...but maybe not...
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Hi guys,
I am with @cowparsleyman (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=21308) here, Tuning is not a crime, Its just whats expected from a produced record these days.
I was listening to the intro to sinner man, Nina simone the other day, The piano is out of time but its on the final cut, fast forward to today, every listener would suggest that is sloppy playing..I have also heard of the scotty moore thing, Back then OK, as it was the only way, today, its not a thing and "Your" audience wont like it.
Seems to be a bone of contention judging by the amount of replies to this thread...Can/worms firmly set free.......and causing carnage..
I would wager that we could count on one hand the amount of singers, in here and in the pro world that do not need ANY tuning of some slight description. I have watched loads of production videos of top engineers fixing pro vocals..Ok, not fixing, enhancing to a level that the record company will accept. Just the way it is. so dont get upset if your vocals get a bit of treatment.
I run every vocal I take and every vocal of anyone I work with through melodyne, Not had one person say, "have you tuned my vocals" but instead, they say "sounds great".
The plot thickens
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A very interesting thread, I suspected this could be a polarising discussion, and it seems to be. For me it’s a bit like discussing religion,politics, Brexit etc. You can only usually get away with saying what you think, but can’t persuade people with different beliefs that you’re right. It usually ends badly. Picking up on points raised before, for me it is all about the song,but that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t present the best possible rendition of it. People always find ways of making things better that suits their needs,and this is no different imho. An example I would give is that I have a drum kit in my studio, and I can play the basics, but why would I when I can access top quality drum loops and bend them to my will, and create a truly excellent drum track?
Don’t misunderstand me I’m not arguing the rights and wrongs of it I’m only saying what I think, other opinions are just as valid!
Yours in a non judgy way😎
Cheers Jamie
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True dat Jamie,
I hear ya, we all use the tools available, for me, Superior drummer, yeh I can play the drums, but like the guys that played the grooves on Superior drummer?, No way I can. They sound great tho.
Its always gunna split the camp but if you love music then you go with what makes you and your listeners feel good.
I dont think for one minute anyone will fall out on here, just good old fashioned discussion.
Probably a good place to end before the gloves come off.
Thanks everyone for their input, Until my next thought provoking post...Over and out.
Now to collect all those worms and get them back in the can for next time.,
No, Now really over and out.
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@PaulAds (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=20253) - 'fraid so, was supposed to be a quick take without much messing about but I still corrected a few things (but then if you couldn't really tell then probably job's a good 'un...)
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There was a time, I believe...when I was a lad...where bands would lose money on live tours but they helped promote record sales...which was where the money was back then. These days, I've heard that it's the live shows that makes most of the big money... which if anything suggests that the ability to perform live on demand is as important as ever. Things like the "live lounge" and live/unplugged sessions seem really popular too.
I don't think there has been anything here that would come anywhere close to anyone falling out. A great interesting chat. I don't give a flyer what anyone uses. There are plenty of legitimate methods and also more dubious forms of skulduggery in the world that concern me greatly...but how people try to get their vocals sounding better isn't on my radar.
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@adamfarr (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=20124) well...you did a great job. I never gave it a thought.
Goes to show that if you can use something that helps you out and makes you happier about what you do... without any negative impact at all...and the result is excellent...then why not use it.
Guess I'm just a bit of a luddite 😃
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Brilliant thread. Have really enjoyed all the angles
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I hate to do it on my tracks. I also hate to admit I have done it and probably will do it again. Once you head down that slippery slope... I find it really interesting how far some of my vocal notes are out (according to waves tune)
It would be tempting to fix everything if I had the time - but I don't - so sometimes I just look to see how bad it is.. and be humbled once more.. :)
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I have an example of a before and after. It's not Tuned Vocals, but how Melodyne can make a difference.
I won't post it to SC for obvious reasons, but I'm more than willing to email them to anyone that wants to hear the comparison. It's "Distance" by SebAndMe, but with me singing (how to ruin a great song!).
Feel free to PM me if you're interested.
Regards
Rich
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Until recently I had never done it, not through any great aversion but because I didn’t know how. I have recently discovered the ability to pitch shift in my DAW and have used it sparingly on a few tracks.
I don’t see anything wrong with it. At the end of the day a I am trying to create and arrange something that is fun, exciting and hopefully beautiful to listen to. Tweaking an arrangement of a song - MIDI keys, reverb, volume etc. - to me is no different; it is all a means to creating a polished piece of music.
I don’t like the autotuned vocal sound when it is over used, but I have found it useful to tweak vocals where re-recording isn’t an option (for instance, if replicating the recording environment/sound is no longer possible because significant time has passed since the initial recording).
Of course it is always preferable to re-record a botched take, but why not tweak it if you need to, and can? Just as long as you are not coming to rely on it entirely. I don’t get to hung up on it.