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Songwriter Forum => Feedback on Finished songs => Topic started by: cowparsleyman on October 07, 2019, 08:45:56 AM
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This one is a gain part of the Genre Jumping suite...
I wanted to re create the vibe of the very brilliant Stock-Aitken-Waterman, they were the backbone of the 1980's pop vibe, Kylie, Jason Donovan, Mel&Kim. The essence was plastic compressed very catchy 3 min wonders, with super attractive young Artists that were up for a life of endless tours, interviews, media intrusion and the heavy pay cheque at the end of the month.
Anyway...Here it is, the SC notes explain the idea in my head (another Sunday morning inspiration, October 2018 with a cuppa and chocolate digestive), I also listened to a lot of 5 Star, (their producer was Jay Graydon - he too was superb, so clean, so small sparkley hooks)
I had the bones of the song and couldn't get any inspiration for the melody nor lyrics, A Fox to the rescue, she is a natural lyricist, so she nailed it in no time at all.
Then I passed it to Cazrolina and she was kind enough to do a few takes of different styles that might suit, my brief was bubble-gum Kylie, but she also did Lilly Allen and Paloma Faith versions.
A huge thanks to both Cazrolina and A Fox.
Let me know what you think and as always Gloves off please.
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CPM,
Simply catchy synth pop. You've got the backing chord sequence, a variance from Blue Monday and some cool melody lines, neat vocals and then you steps it up for the chorus.
It all sounds wonderfully arranged and clear as a bell production-wise.
Thoughts: the non-singing piece from 1.00 to 1.40 lost my attention and I'm unsure what you trying to achieve there - more like remix? Anyway then you're straight into chorus, what happened to verse 2? Then you get the guitar solo and the outro vocals.
So I think you have all the bits but I'd go back to the SAW approach to structure, even if you repeat the 1st verse and re-assemble.
Hope this helps
:-)
neil
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Cowparsleyman!
You definitely achieved what you set out for here! I loved the vibe of this and found it quite nostalgic in a great way! The music is really upbeat and catchy and the vocals were superb!! I could hear this in the charts for sure. The lyrics were also on point and tied nicely back to the whole feel of the song, a brilliant collab!
One slight note (oh here I go :P) but the vocal (edit: its not the vocals ...listened again and not sure what is causing the noise, again probably just my device) sounded a little muffled/distorted (to me), it’s not the singing but is it something in the mix? I’m not great with mixing but thought I’d mention - most likely cause is I’m listening on my phone :P but that’s a mega minor point!
Brilliant work, all of you
Cheers
Darren
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Nicely put together @cowparsleyman (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=21308) Thoughts, I got a more early 80s vibe rather than SAW. I listened to an interview with Pete Waterman the other day and he said that they just layered and layered and layered. This to me has more of an early Depeche Mode poppy vibe. Super cool clean and crisp mix. I dunno if the guitar solo worked for me, nothing wrong with the solo but it just seemed a bit "stitched" in there if you know what I mean. However, it's another top quality piece of work from yourself :)
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Hey @cowparsleyman (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=21308) - very catchy indeed! Great collab! Very well sung! Love the way that you nail the different genres although I would agree it's a bit more DP than SAW.. Only thing I wasn't sure about was that very low in the mix BV (I think it's you? Sounds like a male BV so buried you can't quite hear it.. I'd commit and bring it up or strip out if it was me I think! It's nice when you bring it up and do the Ooh-ooh-oh at the very end, I mean the bit just before that...
Nice work again, sir!
K
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Please don't fall out with me but having lived through this scene i was glad i had bought so many punk albums to keep me sane.
Pete Waterman was behind the scenes on quite a few decent bands til SAW spewed on to the scene, the Specials being one of them.
A whole generation of great bands were lost due to the Radio preferring the passionless paint by numbers formula SAW gave us.
Having said that and being older now i understand that SAW songs were supposed to be fun, uplifting, positive and full of energy which equals perfect pop!
No matter how much i listened at the time i just couldn't feel a thing as it all seemed so soulless to my friends and i.
However having listened to your song i can appreciate the effort in the arrangement, mix and well sung vocals. As Darren has said you have achieved what you set out to do. I like the guitar breakdown but couldn't help feeling it belonged to a different song. Maybe just me sorry.
I love a lot of your other stuff so please don't hate me for not being a fan of this style and sorry for the rant at the beginning.
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Wow! thanks to those who have listened and critiqued, these comments are just what I was after. It wasn't supposed to be deFacto SAW, just a vibe...mixed with a few other influences at the time - Nik Kershaw, 5 Star etc...
@Neil C (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=18856) - I was trying to create a distraction away from the main hook, but without going into a formal M8. I like the idea to return to the V1, although I'd probably just use the 1st line. I'm not one to stick rigidly to well trodden formats, although in this case I think you are right.
@Darren1664 (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=20970) - Thanks for your kind comments, glad you like it.
@pompeyjazz (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=20269) - Thanks John, that's the thing...these days layering is much easier, the solo, yeah I wasn't sure about that, I popped that in as a nod to Nik Kershaw and Jay Graydon, they seemed to get away with it.
@MonnoDB (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=19820) - Cheers K for the comments, you are spot on, the BVox need to come up, I commit indeed I will be fixing this. (Yes it was me, sometimes a couple of voices get rather exposed, so I'll do more tracks, add some microshift, spread them around the stereo soundspace, bring it up a bit and job done.
@Modestmouse1965/ (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=22459) - Oh that's OK, no offence taken, funnily enough at eh time, I thought punk was killing real music and hated it with a passion, although I wasn't keen at all on Kylie when she first arrived on the scene.
I'll prune back the perc as well, not too convinced about that, and probably remove the straight guitar, but I'll leave the solo in.
Gloves off is definitely the best approach, thanks again your comments have been most helpful.
Rich
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Hi! Your production is so crisp and clean it makes me churn with jealousy! The electric guitars at the beginning have shades of Maria by Blondie, which suckered me in straight away, but then the synths sound and electric drums are so authentically eighties. Lovely clear vocals as well, but I would say they struck me as being a little upfront when they came in. If it were me I would have EQd them a little thinner and slapped a bit more reverb on them so they sat back a bit in the mix. But to be fair they are as clean and clear as all the synths and drum sounds.
Chorus feels more 90s pop than 80s pop to me, though that's not a bad thing. It actually took me back to being a kid at birthday parties haha. My favourite melody here by far though is the pre-chorus/second half of the verse. "You see I really didn’t care." That lovely falsetto break on 'care'. Sweet!
Super cool instrumental break too. That lead guitar is soooooo dirty. I really like the outro but I think you could have come back in for a round of choruses. I love the temptation to keep this at 3mins but I think it's a little too short for this kind of song - the 80s really drew everything out and I just expected another chorus to end on.
Some beefy harmonies on the chorus would be awesome and really lift it up. I do feel like I give this advice to everyone but, man I just love big block harmony choruses. Or maybe some backing vocals? Just seems like the lead is a little bare here. Likewise when the song drops out in to the OOs at the end it's cool, but imagine those OOs in three part. Just a possibility - ending the song with a nice hum of harmony.
Great tune. Great production. I need some of whatever you've got - maybe more experience behind the desk? O.O
PS. The spelling made me think of Priti Patel. Is this a love song to our Home Secretary?
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@coparsley man,
Job done! This is very Stock Aitken and Waterman. I was expecting Carolina to break out into "The locomotion." This is a journey back to the eighties and sounds like great fun which of course, music should be!
Well done to everyone involved!
Paul
By the way, the brief guitar solo is fab!
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@Jack Simmons (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=18691) - Thanks for your detailed critique, very welcome and valuable comments Jack, This forum really works for me (@Boydie - a nod to all the Admins efforts)
"If it were me I would have EQd them a little thinner and slapped a bit more reverb on them so they sat back a bit in the mix. But to be fair they are as clean and clear as all the synths and drum sounds." - Interesting observation Jack, If you mean the LVox, then I think that is rather thin as it is, and usually I only put a hair of EchoBoy on it, and sometimes a touch of SmallPlate verb.
Then depending on the overall vibe either pop a Lexicon MPX on the Master buss to wet it all up (really only a touch) a bit so it sounds believable reverb wise, or on the busBVox, it all rather depends how I hear it, and how much verb is on the busInstruments.
"My favourite melody here by far though is the pre-chorus/second half of the verse. "You see I really didn’t care." That lovely falsetto break on 'care'. Sweet!" - I have @AnitaFox (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=20043) - to thank for that, she is a very skilled wordsmith and melody-finder.
I'll be putting a few more layers of HVox on, as well as BVox. Would you be up for doing them? your idea, Vocal range and timbre is perfect for this song. (I'm not in an hurry if your'e busy.) So much for Gtr Solos, you either love em or loathe em, I think sometimes they are dis'd a little too often, but back then they were really the thing to fill out.
As to the production, a lot of it is down to believing in what I hear, mixing under Cans, listening in various places to the current mix (Car, Speakers, iPhone earbuds, wav, mp3 etc.) and the rather tasty audio engine of Samplitude pro X3 (my DAW).
I would also say that like many others I practise not only my instruments, but the DAW - things like Audio Quantizing, Audio to MIDI, Object level automation, Spectral cleaning and all that kind of stuff that benefits from practise and written 'my own interpretation of the user manual'. I also read and practise the more involved plugins/VST's such as Melodyne Studio... they can all lead one to places that you don't want to go, I'm always in control, and I don't mind waiting years before releasing something, it has to be ready...And as you can see from the above this one can still benefit from some work.
@Wicked Deeds (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=19231) - Hi Knackered Dudes 8) ... Now there's an idea, Cazrolina broke out into Teardrops by Womack and Womack once rather unexpectedly on some stems she sent me, managed to incorporate it in one of my more weird pieces (Don't Try this at home).
Thanks for the compliments re: the solo, gratefully received, especially as my arthritis in my fingers gives me jip through the winter, could be worse, (a blister on my/a blister on my thumb...as someone once said)
regards coparsleyman
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Aw...I thought the mid to late 80s in general and Stock, Aitken and Waterman in particular were the absolute lowest point in popular music of my lifetime :'(
To me, they were the Nigerian Princes of the pre-internet era.
Having got that off my chest, this is very well done. From what bits I was unable to blank out of my memory, I think it's like very early SAW sort of Hazell Dean kind of sound ...I think I once read that one of her big hits was one of their first and saved their asses to a large degree. More's the pity. A bit of Sabrina "Boys Boys Boys" too maybe, I dunno...I remember bobbing my head to it on TOTP...but not when I couldn't see the pictures ::)
Vocals are very good of course, and I thought they had that kind of cold 80's slightly passive feel to them...that seemed very clever to me.
That tom fill at 0:41 is bang-on for the period...and took me right back to somewhere awful I haven't been to in decades. Cheers :P
The guitar break is great. In fact, vocals, instruments, production, sounds and performances are all brilliantly done. Just unfortunate that from a personal point of view, it's a style of music I really disliked initially and gradually grew to hate.
Quite often in those days, "The Hitman and Her" would be on TV when I rolled back home from the pub...and I would sometimes sit watching it like a tramp reading the Financial Times.
Brilliantly done, though, CPM. Now, where did I put those gloves...
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@PaulAds (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=20253) - Gee thanks guy...Too kind notwithstanding your inate hatred of 80's pop. I also felt kind of similar, due to the way those young kids were hoisted into the jaws of fame, when they really didn't know what awaited them, you can't put it back once you take that poisoned chalice, they didn't know they couldn't buy cornflakes in a supermarket without being recognised...so sad.
As for the music, some was bearable 5Star was simply brilliantly produced, didn't like the way lived their life, but hey that's down to them, and the financial advice they were given.
If ever you feel too happy, can't puke up after a night on the lash, or just about to track a LVox for a Death Metal tune...go straight to 0:41
btw now THAT is my equivalent of your nemesis...Death metal. (don't tell SlavaB) it's all 7 string double stops and pinch harmonics...uuuurgh (as Les Dawson would say)
There sure was a lot of bobbing around when Sabrina was on TV....
btw one of my old birds (when I was about 17), her Aunty was Hazell Dean....she gave me a signed photo and I chucked it away when I went home and my old mate went out with Sally Oldfield, but the night was dark, could have done with a Moon Shadow.
Thanks very much for the kind words and taking me back to those days in the '70's aaaaaahhh arrrrrghh.
(I see FTSE 100 is nearly 20 points up on the day - best cash in your USD, you should be so lucky....)
Sleep well
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Lots to like here - catchy as a Canadian flu.
Love the synth work and drive of the track.
Vocals are great but I think they could use a bit of pitch correction near the start if I were to be super picky.
Apart from that - it's radio ready IMHCO.
Good collab guys
Paul
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@Paulski (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=19241) - thanks man -
"Vocals are great but I think they could use a bit of pitch correction near the start if I were to be super picky."
yip, I'm glad you mentioned that, I wasn't sure about it, I will fix this.
I'm working on a revised mix...based on the comments in this thread.
Thanks to everyone that contributed.
and a huge thanks to Cazrolina and Anita Fox
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Hi, like Paul the SA and W period wasn't my favorite music time but there is no denying how well you've pulled it of my friend.. :) :)
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Very SAW! Takes me back to my childhood ha! Love it.
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Ah, those were they days when SAW rules the world Yep, I'm old enough :o :o to have first hand experience :-)
I'd say mission is completed, all boxes checked, sounds like the real deal and the chorus is super catchy.
Really nice mix as well, well done!
Btw, Vince Clark called and wanted his synths back...
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Yo @cowparsleyman (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=21308)
The first 2 or 3 seconds I thought I was going to hear Split Enz doing Nobody Takes me Seriously (one of my all time favs) but that was soon dispelled!
As others have said I wasn't a fan of SAW,so I won't labour that point,in fact if you hadn't poisoned my mind with their filthy names,then it may have been easier to drop my preconceptions! :D
Listening to the song itself,it's a lovely well made light and airy pop choon. I also heard the vocals a bit pitchy here and there,not by a mile,but because the quality of the singer is so otherwise great,it stands out a tad. Caz haz a fine voice.
Love the little curved ball at 2.10,though you threw me again as I was expecting a full blown attack of the chorus to fade out! Loved the switch to vocals for the ending.
Smart work Rich,after a few plays I'd even forgotten about the triple Satan of SAW. :P
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@shadowfax (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=20024) - yeah, seems to be some kind of concensus here...
@RealKevM (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=21324) - And what are those braces on Kylies swimming cozzie top she had on on the i should be so lucky viedeo all about?
@Jambrains (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=19875) - cheers , praise indeed from the production meister, always respect your work mr J.
No Vince can’t have his dx7 back, it’ll take me a lifetime to figure out how it works...and don't ask about the matrix12 or the Fairlight, i remember a producer mate of mine recalling kate bush and the fairlight, she only managed to get the sound of broken glass out of it, cost her a packet in hire charges, you can hear it on Experiment IV, with Nigel Kennedy on fiddle ( a truly wonderful Song all about the government wanting develop a weapon using sound - don't look any further than this song!)...
@Skub (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=20061) - cheers man, just took a listen to the Enz track, boy they are talented, i remember seeing them on sight and sound in concert, just brilliant song writing, Never forget it, haircuts and wonderful songs. It does rather sound like that.
You too are one I totally respect here Davy.
Thanks again for the critiques, I’ve spent the day retracking and remixing it...I’ll put it up on Sc as a SWF remix, and tell me what you think...someone mentioned lots of layers..this has about 52 tracks, not a huge amount but i wondered how that managed it back in the early 80, the did have 48 ch desks then and rows of 2” Studer tape machines, and the spaghetti of the patchbay going off and back to the outboard gear the credit for ‘Engineered by’ is often overlooked.
Change list
Flanger on Opening gtr
Reduced congas length,
More of my BV’s in bridge and committed them and outro (idea by @MonnoDB (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=19820) and @jack simmons)
A hook from V1 at the end with a dirty radio sound ... it all sounded a bit too clean up to that point ...lest they forget it
Tverb on bv’s buss
Added portions 2 track BV’s in v1 to thicken the end of each line.
Offset some BV's a tad to thicken, rather than use microshift (I tried both and the former sounded better)
Aligned LVox in V1 but decided not to melodyne it.
Tried and rejected a few other ideas.
Remixed - LVox were re assesed
Remastered
Not a huge difference it’s different rather than better.
Hope you like it, up for feedback...
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@cowparsleyman (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=21308) I don't know but by God
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Here is the Remix....Gloves off is fine.
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Hey CPM - SAW is that some kind of saucy audio workstation?!
Not my scene really, I did use to like those ‘sequenced’ synth lines and yours is great here.
Speaking as a very (very) non-expert, my feeling was, though, that this was light in the bass department - i kind of expected a massiver (fake) kick drum and maybe some sort of 808? style bass going on “down there” to really get the feet moving and fill out the sound. Maybe...
Also, you shouldn’t have mentioned the other vocal versions - the vocals are fine but I think I’d definitely like a snarlier take on this...
Sorry! Possibly this one just not for me so feel free to ignore...
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Wasn't totally happy with the mix, so it's just as I want it now....
@adamfarr (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=20124) - Ho Ho Adam more like Snarly And Wacky , that's OK, it's not to everyone's taste, didn't want an 808 on this one, but thanks for the thought, You know I did an extra snarly version, but that was a bit to Ramstein/SlavB - eque for this one (that was one of the chnages, I took off the snarli-ness from Caz's refrain at the end, I was getting love letters from snarlmeup.com
Thanks
Rich
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well that was the longest three minutes ever.
lol!!
no, I'm just kiddin.
The lady singing really sounded quite appealing, sexually. (say hi from me)
There really is something perversly enjoyable about this song.
You've done a good job at the production
S A & W
they were irritating back in the day, there was just no way a teen could avoid them.
Unlike Madonna, I really think kylie M. got better with time.
Good job.
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Remix sounds very authentic Rich. I won't harp on about my thoughts on SAW as most of it would be censored, but just to say I think you captured that genre. Looking forward to hearing the next genre :)
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Which genre next, i love a challenge and i was very interested and not a little surprised by the anti SAW feeling, they are very very talented in what they do, one doesn’t have to like the songs, just how they craft them, thats what I really admire, it is a genre that you know is thelrs, so you know, either you like it or not, and that takes a lot of work.
Thanks again for all the comments and suggestions, very grateful.
We’ll see what’s up next ....