The Songwriter Forum - songwriting reviews, tips and chat
Songwriter Forum => The Bar => Topic started by: PaulAds on August 10, 2019, 11:09:02 AM
-
Hello
I was just wondering whether anyone else feels that they’d sometimes like to give and receive more critical feedback? I don’t mean for everyone, of course...but perhaps for some of us who have been around the track a couple of times.
We’re an awfully polite bunch...which is lovely...but I sometimes feel that I would benefit from more brutally honest feedback...I know I can write some good songs and lyrics...but if I’m off the mark and have written something that’s a bit rubbish or formulaic or lyrically tiresome...I think I’d rather have my illusions shattered.
There are many folks on here who’s judgment I very much trust...and whom I consider to be friends too...and everything would be taken in the spirit intended.
Any thoughts?
-
Yeah i agree Paul, would be up for that and have had similar thoughts. I guess the poster should indicate in their post that they want the feedback 'extra spicey'?
-
I'm sure you already know I agree with this @PaulAds (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=20253) ! I love getting critical feedback I can get my teeth into. Lately I've been forgetting to say so. It's invigorating. And I really appreciate when I feel safe giving detailed, honest feedback to others, when I feel moved to do so. What's a good way to indicate what we want? A simple, "Please be brutal"?? Or maybe "Spicy feedback strongly encouraged". Hmm, too wordy. Critically honest feedback please....??
Anyway, I'm definitely on board!
Vicki
-
Great post @PaulAds (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=20253) et al... I’m torn to be honest, I always try to offer something that might work for the song, but I’m also sensitive to the artist’s general ability It’s all appropriate...I’m up for any constructive advice, If someone doesn’t like my work thats OK...i can dig it. What I’ve found in the past is that if I’ve made a complete error in production, that won’t go un noticed by the forum and is really well received, blunt is OK as i can be a tad direct...
-
Yes I definitely agree.
I noticed as soon as I joined that everyone is incredibly polite and it can be good for an ego boost but I sometimes worry not everyone is totally honest. As a result, I find myself commenting less and less because rather than be critical I choose not to give feedback at all.
I would love to give more critical feedback and would love to get more. I think there’s a general feeling that a song is a song and when someone has worked so hard on writing and composing it, it’s a little too late for a rewrite. Kind of like telling someone you hate their tattoo - what’s the point?
There’s a lot of music that’s not to my taste here and that’s another reason I rarely comment on something I dislike. It might just be subjective.
-
Great subject. Music is so subjective and I only feel able to give valid and informed views on certain songs. There are loads of songs posted that are simply not to my taste and being “gloves off” in these circumstances would be a waste of everyone’s time.
Equally, some of us are on here for very different reasons to others, and for us hobbyists who are not trying to make a career out of music, then I think there’s still a place for good old fashioned and polite back slapping! On the other hand, for those very serious about “making it” the standard has got to be absolutely top notch - nothing short of that will do. But how many of us, are qualified to give those gloves off accurate critiques in those circumstances? Don’t think I am - I’ve never been a pro musician, so what do I know?
The forum does have a bit of a “mutual back slapping” feel to it, and I do understand that if we are to progress as songwriters, beyond boosting confidence, being too polite will do little to aid our journeys!
-
I completely agree with @Bill Saunders (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=18525) about the "subjective" nature of music and songwriting, which makes any "critique" only as valuable as the person's opinon
I guess the poster should indicate in their post that they want the feedback 'extra spicey'?
^^^THIS^^^ is the key
Be really honest about the feedback you want in your original post - the more detail you give the better
Rather than just: "here is my new song, I would love to hear what you think"
Try things like:
"I am writing with a view to pitching this song for **Insert Famous Artist** - is it good enough to pitch, cany you hear this person singing it etc."
"this song is meant to be a heart-felt ballad - I am a but unsure if the lyrics are cliche - what do you think?"
etc. etc.
-
I feel compelled to write again...a bit sad with Jacks comments, i really valued your comments, and it’s OK to be super honest, direct etc, i don’t have to do what you suggest, but any observations and ideas are what might make alter what is often months of work, I don’t rush...only today Adam Farr suggested that i use a slammed door door to end the song Spitting feathers, a great idea, so I’ll use it...I do sometimes feel a little hesitant in offering suggestions on genres or songs i don’t usually listen to...so i generally offer prod or arrangement ideas.
As for back slapping that’s par for the course...I think we all know how painfully direct the music industry can be...so that’s fine by me to support each other here, it might just put a few newbies off...it reminded me of a club, when you roll up all cold on the first night, everyone knows each other, and you are billy no mates, but that doesn’t last long here, Vicky, pompeyjazz and purple cherry made me feel at home very quickly and they still do, I’ve seen them grow musically and how their lives have emerged...anonymous friends l’ll probably never meet, so back slapping is harmless enough.
-
I feel compelled to write again...a bit sad with Jacks comments, i really valued your comments, and it’s OK to be super honest, direct etc, i don’t have to do what you suggest, but any observations and ideas are what might make alter what is often months of work, I don’t rush...only today Adam Farr suggested that i use a slammed door door to end the song Spitting feathers, a great idea, so I’ll use it...I do sometimes feel a little hesitant in offering suggestions on genres or songs i don’t usually listen to...so i generally offer prod or arrangement ideas.
As for back slapping that’s par for the course...I think we all know how painfully direct the music industry can be...so that’s fine by me to support each other here, it might just put a few newbies off...it reminded me of a club, when you roll up all cold on the first night, everyone knows each other, and you are billy no mates, but that doesn’t last long here, Vicky, pompeyjazz and purple cherry made me feel at home very quickly and they still do, I’ve seen them grow musically and how their lives have emerged...anonymous friends l’ll probably never meet, so back slapping is harmless enough.
@cowparsleyman (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=21308) If I have commented on your songs my responses have been genuine and my criticisms too. I just meant that I only comment on songs here if I enjoy them, if they speak to me or inspire me in someway - I have always enjoyed your output and never lied to you. If I don’t enjoy a song here I simply choose not to comment. I’ve always enjoyed your output and thus you get a measured response from me every time.
-
I'm absolutely fine with open and honest feedback. When I look back to when I joined the forum I was really glad of the production critique, invaluable for me learning a DAW. I try to be objective and constructive in my reviews and appreciate that there are lots of guys coming from lots of different angles, genres and levels of experience so try to keep that in mind.
-
I think there’s a general feeling that a song is a song and when someone has worked so hard on writing and composing it, it’s a little too late for a rewrite. Kind of like telling someone you hate their tattoo - what’s the point?
I totally get what you mean Jack, but I think it’s also the case that as well as giving people feedback on that one song, you’re also giving them pointers and learnings for their next one, that they haven’t even started yet. You might stop me getting a crap tattoo next time. :) So for me anyway I’d still prefer to know if someone thought one of mine was pants.
-
It’s one of the toughest parts of the forum- pitching comments to be encouraging while also giving honest feedback. Usually the useful stuff comes in the longer posts - the shorter the comment the closer it usually is to “great song”.
I’ve had terrible feedback which was hurtful (“get singing lessons”, “the type of song only other songwriting nerds would like” etc.) so I do always try to err on the positive side. That said, I have taken a conscious decision not to leave critical stuff unsaid, even if I find myself going against the general tide. What I do try to do is where I don’t like something, to make suggestions for change, and to give feedback that could potentially be usable.
In general I think that’s the type of feedback I also get which may say something about how it works.
So, I guess I am agreeing with most of the above - critical feedback is fine by me, and I hope with you, as long as it’s specific, actionable and constructive.
-
I do get gentle nudges on here about some of my songs, and I've taken actions on quite a few of the suggestions put forward. Other suggestions I've ignored, as it's not possible or even desirable to agree with everything that's said.
I like the generally supportive vibe on here. Most people on here do this as a hobby and/or escape. We don't want to get too stressy or serious about it all, so personally I think the balance is OK in this mutually supportive community. Long may it continue.
If people do want a gloves off review, however, maybe they should just say so in their opening blurb. But don't leave the forum in a hissy fit if you don't like what you hear! ;D
-
Hi @PaulAds (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=20253)
I'm very ill at the moment so I haven't read anyone's replies. It also means this reply may not be coherent!
I would love to offer more feedback myself but I tend to hold back. And even on the odd ocassions I do, I also tend to hold back.
Most of my criticism seems to be in one of two brackets.
a) I like this song. It's great. Wouldn't change anything.
b) This song could be good with some (or a lot) of changes.
With (a) it feels like at least I'm fulfilling my obligation (even if it's a piss-poor attempt) for critique quotas so I don't feel quite so bad posting my own crap. :p
I don't do as nearly as much (b) as I'd like as it's usually reserved for someone (fairly) new to the forum you're not sure is going to stick around. There's also the fact that Calia almost always gets in there first and takes away my thunder! :p
There is a (c) category but I never post in those. That's the "this is total and utter crap" category and there's just no gentle way of letting you down without lying through my back teeth. I'm not really sure brutal honesty would be too much appreciated here. And trying to let them down gently would still feel as if I'm lining up the third and fourth ribs with a 12" blade...
It's actually (c) that means I don't do much of (a) and (b) either. It feels like that if I only responded to the good/decent efforts then everyone would pretty much know what I felt for the ones I ignored. So I sprinkle my critiques liberally.
As for feedback the other way... well yes. And no.
Some "feedback" I feel is totally inane and plain wrong, and it drives me crazy (too long or too many lyrics really getting my goat). I'd rather have feedback on the quality of the lyrics, how much sense they make, whether they pique your interest or not, any grammar or spelling mistakes even, et cetera, et cetara.
Perhaps the lyrics section should require a slightly more formal approach in how we post, and with the rules therein. Something like the original poster could indicate whether or not they want criticism, and what sort of criticism that should (or shouldn't) take if they have a preference. Then us critics can critique within those boundaries to our heart's content without feeling quite so downright evil.
Although I'd still run into the same (c) problem I guess...
-
I like critical feedback.
But the critic needs to show he has some insight, has listened to the song, understands that it's not supposed to be a puppy love song, or even a commercial effort.
There are some folks on here who give some good feedback.
If I write a piece of classical music without a human voice then I really don't need to hear "hmm it's not exactly Ed Shernan, is it?"
An attentive listener giving honest feedback is the best, otherwise a thanks will suffice.
-
It's not about wether one likes a song or not, that's irrelevant..you can still listen and give some sensible but honest feedback,
there are plenty of formulayic and lyrically tiresome songs in the charts, in fact we are all knackered because intro..verse..bridge..chorus..etc..is formulayic :)
I tend to mention a (what I consider to be ) production problem, but if someone cannot actually sing I steer away from that area..however, it would be a valid criticism..would it not?
I have in the past mentioned mistakes in acoustic guitar playing only for some..(purist) to say it was an honest performance,
which is a bit silly...your not helping anyone by encouraging their mistakes..
I reckon tis best to leave things as is guys.. :) :)
I reckon if you wanted special critique you could PM the person you would like it from...maybe :)
in fact ..thinking about that, it seems like a good solution.. 8) :)
-
I agree Paul (as you probably remember).
No-one wants to offend of course and a lot of reviews are just people racking up points because they want to post so I suppose we should just be grateful that they are reciprocating (not like some) even if a lot of the reviews are brief, uncontroversial and weak.
If you think a song is great, maybe a bit more in the way of qualifying just what it is that moved you to say it was great would make things a bit more interesting.
But we are not professional critics so not everybody is good at reviewing or making a thorough examination of their feelings about something...just like it and can't really explain why.
It also takes more time and commitment to give a thorough appraisal.
-
Am I missing something? how do people rack up points by posting, have Tesco got involved? :)
and..how dare you criticize peeps for their reviews! if someone acknowledges a writers song, no matter how brief..uncontroversial or weak then that's good enough, at least they took the time to listen and comment...
you really are a bit high and mighty sometimes.. :o
-
Am I missing something? how do people rack up points by posting, have Tesco got involved? :)
and..how dare you criticize peeps for their reviews! if someone acknowledges a writers song, no matter how brief..uncontroversial or weak then that's good enough, at least they took the time to listen and comment...
you really are a bit high and mighty sometimes.. :o
This is a bit strong mate... How Dare people? Step back and give it some thought and you'll realise he's alluding to the possibility that some people might be posting simply to make up their 3 reviews per song submission.
Disagree with each other by all means, but seeing this kind of tone of voice upsets me because it's unnecessary and lowers the tone of the forum.
The forum doesn't belong to you any more than it does me or viscount. It's a really cool place, and I think we should all work to protect that.
Bill & Ted said it best: be excellent to each other. :D
Back on topic, it's a really interesting one, and I'm going to offer a perspective that hasn't been aired yet. Giving brutal feedback takes guts! And confidence. Two things not everyone has. But Boydie said it in his post: if you're looking for brutal, no-holds-barred honesty, ask for it. I've done it. And if you can take criticism it's a great thing to receive.
-
Er...yes sorry about that Kevin. I kept drafting replies to this thread and not posting and got myself a bit on to the wrong track when I finally did...got myself a bit mixed up with the spirit of a thread I started myself a year or so ago....a bit on the same subject but with a different emphasis.
Sorry about that.
Your reviews are ace by the way.
-
Hey Tone it's cool. Kevin is right.
-
(https://media.giphy.com/media/WvRFCB27924yk/giphy.gif)
Joking aside...I'm a little sorry I mentioned it now.
Just ignore me :(
-
;D ;D @PaulAds (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=20253) :D :D
Thanks for the laugh Paul!
I'm firmly in the camp of accepting whatever critique comes my way. I hope no one feels like they have to tiptoe around me,or be afraid of causing offence,because there is certainly no need. I don't just post songs to be admired,though you can do that too,if you like. ;D
When I post a song in 'Finished Songs',it's usually...er.. finished :D However if someone offers advice on any part outside of a rewrite,I will consider and possibly take it onboard,then alter the track accordingly.I did this in the current song.
You all know how it is,we are immersed totally in a new track and it's very easy to lose objectivity,effectively we stop hearing properly. This is why fresh,honest ears are a real boon and this place has always been good at doing this...as Paul says,politely! ;D
I understand it's difficult for some to be constructive on tracks they don't dig,it's easy to say,'It's not my thing,but it's well produced' and although that's a bit of a backhanded compliment,it's not going to cause any wars! If I really can't hear any value in a track,nor any way to help,I won't say anything at all.
If a song can be reviewed constructively and supportively,it's a great thing. I love the way this forum has brought out the best in songwriters though encouragement and technical help,I for one feel I've grown more content in my own skin in my time here.
So...after all that horseballs above,yeah,if someone has something to point out in any of my tracks,I'm more than happy to receive that knowledge before going down the path of the abusive PMs. ;D
As you were. 8)
Davy.
-
I hear what Tone says but sometimes things just have to be said, Viscount has accepted what I said with a degree of humility that gains him a heckofalotof respect from me for sure... :)
this was a brutally honest critique of his post, if we cannot do that then how on Earth do we give brutally honest critiques of music?
I still think if a poster wants honest critique then PM the person they want it from, lets keep the forum polite, because it will soon degenerate into...right, he/she gave me a brutally honest crit so I'm gonna do the same back..saw it happen on the Steinberg site,
best to all and respect to Viscount.. :) :)
-
Got to be honest, I'm a bit taken aback there, Kev.
Anyway... The general consensus seems to be that brutally honest feedback in certain situations and only when invited is not a road we want to go down. Cool. It was just a thought.
If whatever those steinberg folks were doing suggested that unless we all tell each other our songs are really good...we'll descend into telling each other our songs are really a bit shit is...well...a bit shit.
In the grand scheme of things, lots of my songs are effectively shit. I've had songs I was foolish/arrogant enough to think were in with a real chance of winning song of the month that weren't even shortlisted. I've submitted many songs to BBC introducing but all bar one novelty song were rejected. When I listened to the songs that made the play list of the shows, I thought most of that stuff was shit. I'm quite likely simply wrong. I gave a cd of some of my songs to our drummer and he isn't interested in them at all.. I don't stop writing and recording because of it. I just want to make sure I'm being realistic and not living in some bullshit fantasy world. I've written lots of songs but never posted them here because I know they're shit. I was writing songs for about 25 years before I knew a songwriters forum existed. Most of those were more shit than the stuff I write now.
I don't mind. It's my hobby. I like it.
There are some kind people here who give me more credit than I think I'm due...and there are people here who don't rate me much at all. Thank you and ho hum respectively.
I'm deluded enough to think that the most important things about writing songs are the things I'm quite good at....but I know I'm deluding myself. It just helps me keep going.
-
Well, I, for one, am glad you mentioned it @PaulAds (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=20253) and I'm still in favor of brutally honest feedback. At least when I am on the receiving end. And by "brutally honest", I don't actually mean "brutal", as in rude and hurtful. Plain and honest. But then, I do have pretty thick skin. Most of the time.
-
@Paulads I think the feedback here is actually reliable - it's just different to what you get in the real world:
- we are probably a bit primed and looking forward to each others' songs because we may have heard others before or the poster has earned some listens by being constructive around the forum or giving our own a listen
- as creators and reviewers we here are attentive listeners - I'm often shocked when I play something for someone in real life that by about the 10 second mark they are already talking over it
- speaking for myself at least, I am a non-expert musician, singer, and producer and so am likely to give due credit to those who seem to be ahead of me in those games
- we are fellow sufferers...
These things may make us a bit more positive than those that hear the songs for the first time in the real world. But it just means we've listened better, and maybe appreciate things that others don't listen for. It doesn't at all mean the songs are really more shit than we say (on the contrary) - it just means that others don't really listen to them. This may be due to their expectations of what singing voices should be, or comparing them to the instancy of chart music, or whatever (and we can choose to try going down those paths or not, depending on what our intentions are).
As Roseanne Cash said (actually she nicked it from someone): play to the 6% of the audience who are poets. (Every now and then you find an appreciative listener, even in the outside world).
Anyway, I was humming "Under the Knife" while walking the dog this morning, so that is definitely the opposite of shit.
-
I recently received this review in one of the other areas in this forum, I just wasn't sure if it was Gloves of/On or no gloves at all...
Nice piece, good feel, and the handling of the forces was done well.
There are engraving issues however, particularly with slurs colliding with other components.
8)
-
Strait-jacket off?
-
@PaulAds (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=20253) - You sly ol' thing...it was you wasn't it... 8)
-
@cowparsleyman (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=21308) You sure need to deal with those engraving issues otherwise your song is going nowhere
-
With all due respect: EVERYONE want's "honest criticism" --- until they get some. We've all learned who WANTS honesty, and who wants to be flattered after a little time here. So, most of us are cautious.
Giving feedback to someone we don't know, (if I like the offering) I offer big encouragement mixed with slight criticism. THEN, (based upon the response to the slight criticism) I make a judgement about what the poster really WANTS.
From that point on, I only offer the desired amount of criticism on ONLY songs I like.
I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one who does this.
-
Hey
I write this reply knowing I am likely one of those reviewers who comes across a little too polite and I can be gushing but it's always genuine.
As a songwriter who has struggled to capture their ideas in a recording, I find it extremely difficult to be critical of others who are simply trying their best. I offer bits of advice where I am comfortable doing so but always try to leave positive comments where I feel they are deserved, which to me is most, if not all, of the time >.<
For the more experienced I offer little because it would be like me trying to tell a pro golfer how to swing a club but I do enjoy watching them play ;) and will always comment on a good shot! OK, analogy segway...hope you followed
All the best
Darren
-
Personally, i have joined the site to learn from other musicians. I am older in years now and can take a kick in the you know whats. I am not saying that the person giving the review should tell you they hate your song as that's just nasty and helps no-one, but in their ears if they can hear something wrong with the song or have something that they think would take the song to the next level then they should say it in a way that the person asking for the review can learn from. By being too nice in a way is as bad as being nasty in that when the songwriter writes another song for review they will most likely have the same mistakes and be no further forward as a songwriter. In order for us to become better writers i think we must imagine that we are all in the same room writing together and give each other our opinions with respect and with the idea that we will all become better at what we do.