The Songwriter Forum - songwriting reviews, tips and chat
Songwriter Forum => Recording => Topic started by: jacksimmons on February 06, 2019, 01:37:33 AM
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This is another one for all you godly producers out there: Once I have put out my 80s-esque synth-pop album I will be working with my old writing partner and recording an album as our 'band'. The only rub is there is no band - just me and him - so most of the instruments will be MIDI. I really want to simulate a full band sound as much as possible and was wondering if anyone has any tips and tricks on how to do this? I want our album to sound like an indie band actually playing as opposed to something that's been chucked together in the bedroom studio.
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Hi Jack, I'm certainly no expert and I must say that I'm always impressed by your production.
For what it's worth I would try the following if possible....
I would try and keep the guitar and bass parts non-midi if you can, midi is fabulous, I use it a lot but for me there's something that you can't quite replicate especially with guitar.
As you're going for an Indie sound I would look at layering / duplicating your guitar parts. For example, I often have a guitar part panned at "ten to" and then re-record the same part and pan it to "ten past" I might use a Marshall amp sim on one guitar and a Vox amp sim on the other.
Beef up the guitar by playing a track of 5ths and / or some power chords. You can hide them slightly in the mix but it will beef up the overall sound.
Give your vocs some serious welly. You are a fantastic vocalist anyway. Try double tracking vocs as well.
Don't get hung up by quantizing - Sure, you need it more or less there but for me 100% quantizing seems to have a rather clinical feel !
Anyway, as I say, I'm no expert but just some of the tips I have learned along the way :)
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Yo Jack.
Pomps speaks true on the guitar and bass. If you can use real instruments for those parts,you'll get away with murder on the others. The world is falling down with guitar players,so you shouldn't have bother getting one!
I use the same trick as John on the panning of guitars and I think it works best if you play both parts,rather than using the same track twice,it give a real live feel.
I was at a gig with Aussie rocker Jimmy Barnes last year and he had a guitar player on each side of the stage,both playing almost the same,but not exactly...it was devastatingly effective.
Sorry to use one of my own tracks as an example,but it was inspired by that gig and it's all I could think of.
You only need to listen to the first 20 seconds. The first 10 seconds has guitar playing a simple riff panned left,then joined by the second guitar panned right. Hopefully you'll see what John and I mean.
https://soundcloud.com/skub1955/pay-it-back
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Hi Jack
As you know AtticVibes is just myself and Mikey,
We always go for that full band sound, Double tracked guitars, Realistic drums, although digital drums can work if layered and engineered correctly.
Layered vocals also help, harmonies panned and doubled. Most of our tracks have around 10 lanes of vocals takes..
We play all instruments except part drums and keys.
Arranging is important, try and imagine the parts actually being played..and the position of each player.
Also get a great mix, compression, EQ, mastering etc.
Hope this helps
Andy
AtticVibes
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Great advice from the boys...
A while back, I tried doing it from a different perspective. My logic was that my band is just 1 guitar/bass/drums and vocals, so that's all I'd use.
I wanted to try getting a live band feel for a few songs as I always prefer that kind of sound, rather than the safer and more sanitised versions I usually end up with. I basically just stripped out the other instruments, leaving only 1 guitar, bass and a no harmonies (unless there is another vocalist or you can do an impression of somebody else). I figured it was the drums that had the most impact on the overall "safe" sound, so I played the drums myself to get more of a live (shambolic) feel and used the "bluebird" kit in GarageBand which I think sounded most like a live drummer. I then probably ruined it with the iPhone "live tunes" app which adds too much reverb and audience racket. the results are here if you want to hear the error of my ways. Some songs worked better than others...I intended to do a whole album, but lost interest :P To be honest, I think I just made this EP pastiche of the idea, as I couldn't do it properly!
You're a great writer and singer...and I'm sure you'll do a great job...although I think that it'll be strange to do it without folks playing yer actual guitars...
Good luck, though...I'll be looking forward to hearing it.
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Thanks for all the replies guys! @PaulAds (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=20253) I think that stuff sounds really good and the crowd ambience isn't too much at all.
Just to be clear, though: I will be playing rhythm acoustics and my friend (also a songwriter) is a lead guitarist so he will be handling that side of things. I would like a live bassist too because I'm aware how much difference that makes. I can never get my MIDI bass to sound real enough.
I think the rhythm section is super important and I've not been paid enough attention to that in the past. What sort of tips and tricks do you guys have for making MIDI drums sound 'real'? I try not to over-quantize and mess around with velocities a lot.
I really need to get my head around drum compression and side-chaining and all this stuff that right now looks like jibberish.
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Hi Jack!
I think I'm in sort of the same spot. I've started to believe I might be able to make something similar to stoner rock on my own. I play in two bands at the moment but it's mostly like going to the gym, only covers. I play guitar, I sing, we drink coffee. Just fun.
So I've started to record bass(with kick drum as metronome). Just intro and verse. I got all the guitar stuff in my head, no lyrics yet, and add drum by drum in midi. One drum after the other, just hitting the keys on my Akai. Most hits are slightly off beat, maybe 5-20ms +/- on every hit. At the moment I've done kick, tom, snare and hi-hat for about 16 bars. There is no beauty in my midi sound samples but it sounds a whole lot better than when I created drums by drawing blocks in the midi instrument track (Studio One).
My advice is that you listen to some songs that go in the same direction as you want with this band. Some bands have more of a wall of sound than single instruments. Think the chorus of Band of Horses 'The Funeral'(post-post-indie?). Some later White Stripes uses the same concept of multi layer sound a la Billy Corgan to occupy all the space in the room. Another style that does the opposite is more directed towards background instruments and lead vox/git, maybe The Strokes(post-garage?) is a good example. Since I live in a country with two capitols I'd recommend listening to the whole Gothemburg 90's indie scene (after the death scene). You got STOOL, Bad Cash Quartet, Broder Daniel, maybe throw in a bit of Refused in the mix.
You got the voice. You got the songwriting. Now let's get you a band! [Insert cheerful picture of 'The unBreakable' Kimmy Schmidt]
All the best,
Martin
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Great advice all. I would be more than happy to contribute any bass (Indie or otherwise) to your songs @Jack Simmons (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=18691) . Vocals are tricky to get right as we both know and drums without a real drummer probably more so although the vocalist wont keep whinging at you to buy them another pint. I would check out EZ drummer or Addictive drums. As well as having some top quality midi stuff and a huge variety of kits you can manipulate the midi as required :)
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Some amazing advice
2 things I would add...
The most important (and often overlooked) ingredient when going for an Indie vibe is "attitude" - when you play each part you need to be thinking about rocking out in a pub/club rather than trying to record the perfect take
This will be especially apparent for the vocals - really attack them
For drums I would definitely recommend JAMSTIX to get that "real drummer" sound (and I must thank @shadowfax (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=20024) for this recommendation)
JAMSTIX is more of a "virtual drummer" than a drum VST but the sounds are actually pretty decent - although it comes in to its own when you use it to drive another VST such as Addictive Drums etc.
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@Boydie (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=18510)
You reckon jamstix is any further up the road that me using logic's 'drummer'? I know it's limited to Logic,but I'm asking for purely selfish reasons and also I sometimes have difficulty getting what I want with drummer.
I want to keep things simple Paul. I don't want a whole new ballache for negligible return..if ya gets me! :D But If I can up my game,then I like to know schitt.
Yeah,I know,moon on a stick too. :D
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Thanks guys! I have had Addictive Drums for a while but couldn't get it working in my DAW. I devoted a day to it yesterday and it's now working and looks AMAZING.
As for JAMSTIX...I have to admit I have never heard of it. What is it and what does it do?
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@Skub (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=20061)
It depends on what you are looking for
@shadowfax (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=20024) had been recommending it for a long time so I finally got around to taking a look and it was exactly what I was looking for
Do not think of it as a drum VST (although it does come with drum sounds that do actually sound pretty decent)
The concept of JAMSTIX is that you load up a style (pop, funk, rock etc.) and then you load up a drummer, which emulates the playing style of different drummers that play each groove slightly differently
You then create songs from parts (verse, chorus etc.) where you can change the "intensity" - e.g. If you lower the intensity it automatically plays quieter (dropping from snare to side stick at a certain threshold) and also plays simpler part
I would suggest checking out some YouTube vids (but IMHO I didn't find any that really did it justice) and then download the free demo
Don't be put off by the intimidating interface - it all makes sense pretty quickly
I would suggest tagging in me and Shadowfax if you have any questions
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Thanks Paul. I'll do some homework to see if it's for me. :)
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Live band sound? I’d say play it like live band. By that I mean treat it like a demo. Keep the bpms fast. Get a decent live sounding VST ( I use ezydrummer ) but keep it lively. Then quickly put down your parts before you’ve learnt them too well.
Guide guitar and vocals, then bass and 2nd lead guitar. Redo vocals, fix obvious errors or mistakes but leave the interesting ones in. Don’t edit or do fancy production and keep it basic. Think like the clash/ramones/Black keys etc.
Have fun and sound like you’re having fun
:-)
Neik
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Spot on @Neil C (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=18856) :)
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Guys,
If you have the bucks, Superior drummer 3 is amazing, so much control, grooves....but comes at a price.
We use it on everything.
Cheers
Andy
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Andy, is that the EZ drummer upgrade as that is pretty damn good
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is that the EZ drummer upgrade as that is pretty damn good
Nope, EZ is one thing. Superior another. Same company though. /Peter =)
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@jacksimmons (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=18881) - Tricky one this as your 2 genres are quite different, 70's disco/funk is usually live with a smattering of synth, and '80's synth pop rock is more synth and midi.
If someone gave me this project and said I'd have to deliver it without real instruments and it would need to sound Live then I'd put more work in the planning stage.
First ensure the structure of the song is finalised, this will help with placement of drum fills, and BVox.
Plonk Markers at the important points along the timeline V1, CH1 Mid8 etc.
Have a couple guide Vocal tracks that won't be heard on the final mix, one to help the Vocalist(s) to remember the melody and starting notes for HVox and one for solos (count in when a solo will start) I generally say things like "Synth Solo on Track 3 coming in 1,2,3,4 etc) more like a TV director.
The above will ensure everything is happening to a plan rather than by chance.
If you have a template project with tacks already named, input/outputs routing, plugins etc already setup then using this might speed things up, especially if you have a multi channel MIDI drum VST, (I used BFD3 - after a recommendation on this forum) (and a few others, you know me I like to danger it up) or a raft of multi timbral synths.
To get a live sound, it can be done quite successfully even with MIDI instruments, first make em sound real, if each instrument doesn't sound real then you've got no chance, use your ears and be honest with yourself...is that really Nile Rogers standing in front of you?
The trickiest bit is making the real sounding instruments sound like their playing live, and this is really the nub of your question Jack, and there are a few approaches one can take in achieving this.
Make the most convincing thing stand out, probably the drums and synths, hide a lot with vocals, they're real....so what's left, maybe guitar, funky guitar might be harder (hence your request for an urgent Disco guitarist elsewhere on this forum), bass a tad easier to blag, hence the reason for the earlier posts from Skub and Pompeyjazz.
Production wise one can make it sound Live in 2 ways, Live as in a sounding like it's recorded in 1 take in the Studio just add verb (Room) on the mix buss, but not too much, try and capture string noise on the bass Gtr, breaths on the vocals, all the things that you's notice at a live studio recording, as opposed to a live gig recording where they'd be audience noise, amps humming, artists checking tuning, the ubiquitous 1-2-3-4 from the drummer, snare bleed from the bass Gtr, extended finishes and solos etc. but you'd have a lot of work capturing those nuances.
Anyway Hope this helps Jack
Rich
As to the Live sounding band...
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@pompeyjazz (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=20269)
Hi pomps, Superior drummer is a seperate program but by Toontrack,
Really good.