The Songwriter Forum - songwriting reviews, tips and chat
Songwriter Forum => Recording => Topic started by: jacksimmons on September 14, 2018, 07:24:45 PM
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This is something I'm hoping the production wizzes on here can help me with. I am relatively new to the production side of things (only been trying to seriously record stuff for 2 or 3 years) and I have recently come across this issue. I mix a song I am working on in my studio headphones (KRK KNS-8400) and get the vocals sounding just right to my ears, but when I listen on my speakers (KRK Rokit5s) the vocals are often boxy and bassy. I know that my room adds bass to my speakers, and have heard that the Rokits are a little low-end heavy anyway, so I have them tweaked accordingly, but still have this issue.
I try to cross reference between my headphones and my speakers as much as possible, but with a song I am working on right now I cannot seem to get the EQ just right. The vocals either sound crap in my headphones, or crap on my speakers.
Can anyone shed some light on this?
I've uploaded the WIP to Soundcloud, so here it is.
Would really appreciate it if people could a) explain this phenomenon to me and/or b) give the track a listen on their systems and let me know what's wrong with it. I have gotten the track sounding how I like with my headphones, and for now am ignoring my studio speakers.
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Disclaimer: I am not a production whizz!
However, I do have something to offer here. Personally, I would never use headphones for anything other than detailed editing. If you're trying to track down a noise, blip, click, whatever, or tweak your gate/ compressor etc, then headphones can be really helpful.
For mixing, I believe you need to hear sound moving through the air. Which means using speakers. Nobody here has an expensive, treated mixing room with state of the art speakers. We're all making the best of what we have. So here's how I'd approach your problem.
Reference tracks and getting to know your room/ speakers. How often do you listen to great records on your mixing speakers? Do you know how they sound? Do great recordings sound great on them? Getting to know your speakers and the room they're in is invaluable.
Assuming you've tackled the above, I would also recommend using a reference track when mixing. Choose something with a similar sound to the one you're trying to create, and regularly compare your mix to it. This will not only give you perspective (regularly) but will help you more quickly identify frequencies that are messing up your mix.
There are a few other tricks you can use, such as take the song into another room and another pair of speakers. Make notes. Ditto your car if you have one. I've even tried hiking the volume up and listening from the hallway. But generally, I always try to keep my mixing volume constant, and not loud enough to tire my ears out. Standard listening volume in other words. Once you have a good mix, it should sound good when you listen really quiet and really loud.
I hope some of that is helpful. I expect Boydie or Ramshackles will be along shortly to give some better and more detailed advice :)
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Hi Guys,
Disclaimer - I am no production wizzie either.
Heres how I approach Vocals.
I also have a set of KRK rockit 8's. My room is treated with bass traps and reflection foam, diffusers etc.
Now heres a thing. I haven't been able to get a good master from my monitors since I bought them, But I use a set of Beyerdynamic DT 770 Pro headphones. Now I can get a good master on those.
So I track with my monitors and mix and master on my headphones. Ok, some people will say thats wrong or doesn't work, but I check my mixes on other setups and they kind of translate. They won't sound like a pro master as I am not a mastering engineer.
Getting Vocals to sit in a mix requires a lot of corrective EQ, Sound shaping EQ, Compression, followed by maybe another then Automation etc..al lot of work but its required if you want the vocal to sit right and all the words be heard clearly.
As for the Rockits, still messing with my room acoustics now, or like Tone said, learn the sound of them by doing a lot of referencing.
Good luck,
Andy
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@jacksimmons (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=18881)
I haven't had a chance to listen to your recording but from what you have described a few things spring to mind...
The makn difference between listening on speakers v headphones is the effect that the room has
Talking about it is one thing - but I think you should do a little experiment to prove what is going on
Without changing anything with your setup play the logarithmic version of this full frequency sine sweep
https://www.audiocheck.net/testtones_sinesweep20-20k.php
a perfect situation all frequencies will be heard equally so the volume of the file should be consistent
Your ear is likely to favour some frequencies BUT I think you will notice some very dramatic peaks and dips in volume at different frequencies (and if you play the file through a graphic eq that gives you a visual representation of the frequencies you will be able to identify where your room is emphasising or cancelling certain frequencies)
I suspect your room dimensions are causing standing waves
A cheap solution to get a more accurate response is to check your speaker placement (I would suspect they are too close to the wall)
You could also consider some type of isolation material between your speakers and desk/stands
You can then start to consider some acoustic treatment for your room to deal with key reflection points
Here is a great little guide , and be sure to check out the box about room dimensions and standing Waves
Headphones are often frowned upon for mixing - but one does have to wonder if it is better to mix on headphones than in an untreated room which is causing issues
I personally like to use headphones with a VRM box, which mimics the experience of mixing on speakers. This is now discontinued but Waves and Sonarworks have similar software based products
Finally, don't forget your end listeners will not be in treated rooms with perfect monitor speakers
Your mixing is therefore more about getting the song to sound good on different systems- so as @tone (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=1) has rightly said the more you "learn" your mixing equipment & environment the more likely you are to make the right decisions when mixing
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This is something I'm hoping the production wizzes on here can help me with. I am relatively new to the production side of things (only been trying to seriously record stuff for 2 or 3 years) and I have recently come across this issue. I mix a song I am working on in my studio headphones (KRK KNS-8400) and get the vocals sounding just right to my ears, but when I listen on my speakers (KRK Rokit5s) the vocals are often boxy and bassy. I know that my room adds bass to my speakers, and have heard that the Rokits are a little low-end heavy anyway, so I have them tweaked accordingly, but still have this issue.
I try to cross reference between my headphones and my speakers as much as possible, but with a song I am working on right now I cannot seem to get the EQ just right. The vocals either sound crap in my headphones, or crap on my speakers.
Can anyone shed some light on this?
I've uploaded the WIP to Soundcloud, so here it is.
Would really appreciate it if people could a) explain this phenomenon to me and/or b) give the track a listen on their systems and let me know what's wrong with it. I have gotten the track sounding how I like with my headphones, and for now am ignoring my studio speakers.
@Jack Simmons (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=18691) - Hi Jack, ditto about the production thingy. I haven't read the other posts by the other guys yet, but I had the same issue, and now I'm happy as Larry with the Vox I produce, I use JBL L46 mid field monitors, but most of the time I use a very flat pair of headphones, which sound 'wrong' to many folk (not much bass), but they are right, spot on in fact. I can only recommend them, they are AKG Quincy Jones q701's an absolute bargain, using only cans, can give a false stereo soundstage, but once you know that it's no issue at all.
Along with these I use the car and SoundMagic e80's for reality checking, I wish I could lend you them.
I have to be honest jack, your Vox sound OK to me.
Hope it helps
cpm
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Thank you all! This has been very helpful and eye opening for me. @Boydie (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=18510) that link was really great and you are amazing as always. I did have my speakers almost flush to my back wall. I have a very tiny bedroom at the moment, but I've sacrificed a foot or two and moved everything forwards and already hear a marked improvement. I don't know why I didn't think to move them from the back wall sooner since I've moved them as far from the corners as possible already to prevent bass trapping. Live and learn I guess! I have refrained from any sound treatment atm because I am in the process of buying a place and won't be in my little bedroom in my parent's house much longer.
@cowparsleyman (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=21308) The false stereo headphone stuff is something I am just getting my head around. I try and take this in to account when I am mixing on my headphones. I am glad you like the vocal sound. The version of the song I posted is already outdated so no worries to anyone who hasn't listened. After repositioning my speakers I managed to get a vocal sound that translates from headphone to speakers a little better.
@Cawproductions (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=20938) It's kind of relieving to know people have had/are having similar issues to me. I know what you mean, though, I have to say that my mixes have translated better since I started mixing in headphones. I think my room has been having a big effect on my mixing without me realising.
@tone (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=1) I will be making better use of reference tracks from now on. I admit this is something I have neglected. Some things are just baffling to me at this stage. The main thing that baffles me is the idea of getting a 'translatable' mix. Until recently I always assumed that if my song sounds good on £500 worth of playback then it should sound good anywhere, but now I know this is totally not the case. My question is then, how do I know what to sacrifice in my studio headphones/monitors to make my mix sound good on a pair of shitty speakers, or laptop speakers, or in my car, or on the radio, and how do I get a sound that is good on all these platforms if a good mix on my Rokits isn't necessarily a good mix anywhere else? This production stuff is scary haha.
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Information is interesting to understand.
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Hi all,
Just a quick update
Since my last post, I have bought an ultra curve pro and also managed to get myself a measurement mic.
So, the Ultracurve has an RTA socket on the back for measuring your room EQ and modes using Pink Noise.
Heres what I found.
The curve was far from flat, The unit made its own EQ curve to try and correct how the room responded.
Yeh yeh, I hear all the Audiofiles saying its not the best way but if you have treated your room the best you can and use a unit to fix the rest, It works for me. Or 20 grand to have someone sort your room out.
Anyway, The main thing I noticed was that the monitors sounded VERY different with the curve applied. I made minor tweaks to the curve to try and match My DT770 headphones sound.
Since mixing and Mastering with my Rockits (Curve applied) the mix now does translate just like my headphones did.
Moral of my rambling is that I thought the sound from my monitors were sounding great, But once my ears had got used to the sound of the Curve applied sound, I now think that sounds great....
Ok, last moral.....I was amazed how I thought my monitors sounded great but in reality were very bassy and big dips in places.
Phew...enough rambling..All the pros will know this stuff and its all over the net but just thought I would share my findings.
Have a great day people out there in audio land.
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@Cawproductions (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=20938) - Very interesting, which measurement mic did you use?
For my sins I tend to use a tried and trusted method, mix entirely on the cans (AKG Q701) then listen in my Car and make any changes based on what I hear there.
I listen to it on my mid field JBL's before I release it.
If I release it here, then I do take note of any comments about the prod.
That's it, it usually sound OK.
(If I listened on too many sources then I ended up going round in circles!)
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Hi CPM.
I bought a Behringer ECM 8000, they were quite pricey but have recently come right down in price, I think I paid about 28 quid.
Nothing wrong with your mixing method, I mix and master with cans then ref on my monitors and lots of other sources, also check in MONO. Also do a lot of comparisons with a track I like.
This forum is a great place to testbed a track as peoples listening spaces are wildly different. Totes agrees with taking all comments on board, I am not too proud to do that.
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I was supposed to be asleep an hour ago, but this subject caught my attention.
The sine wave Boydie posted is a good way of hearing the spectrum, but after checking with our friends on gearslutz I soon found Fuzzmeasure(499$) and ARTA. It has a free demo version. Basically pink noise. I'll dig a bit deeper, 15 years since I read about acoustics.
Anyway, my suggestion is to try not to get stuck on the listening environment. The, possibly .wav-files, in your daw is just an imprint of sound. In no way perfect. Listening to that sound with super flat headphones is most of the time not what the recording was meant for. Listening to that sound in a studio is most of the time not what that recording was meant for. Setting aside creating, with lack of better words, a sound in a studio, the recording is a medium to transport the information from the recording session(s) to the listener.
Boydie has, if memory serves me, in another topic mentioned using a room/acoustic simulator for headphone mixing. This might be an ideal way to get rid of factors such as monitor capability, room acoustics, listener position(measured in degrees of axis), different hearing on different ears, bad hair day, noise level of surroundings. On the other hand all those factors are present in day-to-day semi-audiophile musical gluttony.
Good night,
Martin
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Boydie has, if memory serves me, in another topic mentioned using a room/acoustic simulator for headphone mixing. This might be an ideal way to get rid of factors such as monitor capability, room acoustics, listener position(measured in degrees of axis), different hearing on different ears, bad hair day, noise level of surroundings. On the other hand all those factors are present in day-to-day semi-audiophile musical gluttony.
@Martinswede (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=20851)
"bad hair day"
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
That really made me laugh - now THAT is the correction plugin I need
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I was going to create a new thread and then remembered this one. It's sort of an addition to the rest of these posts so hope people don't mind the resurrection.
I have recently purchased and applied the Arc 2.0 Room Correction Software and was surprised how much it affected my monitor sound with all the corrections applied. Looking at the corrected EQ graphs I have to say it makes a lot of sense as to why I wasn't too happy with how things were translating to different listening environments.
I have a specific question which is this: I plan to use reference tracks for my next project (something I haven't done before) by dragging the mp3 in to Cubase to listen alongside my mix. Should I be listening to these reference tracks with the room correction on them, or should the room correction bypass the reference track so I am hearing them 'as they are'? I hope that makes sense to the production wizzes.
A general question, too: what do people think about 'room correction' generally for a room that cannot be properly acoustically treated?
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Couple of things....
Reference tracks are a great idea. I use a plugin called “Magic AB” which allows me to load up a selection of reference tracks in the genre I working in (or with a feel I am going for) and the plugin allows me to match volumes and then quickly “A/B” between my mix and the reference mix
If the MP3s are high quality you should be fine for broad matching but just be aware there will be some kind of “loss” in the MP3. A high quality WAV would be ideal
When comparing you should always keep the listening environment the same - so keep the correction on for both - and also listen with it turned off for both
Also, make sure you turn off the room correction when you are exporting your mix (or be 100% certain your mixdown is not including the room correction software when you export)
I love the techy aspect of room correction software and if it works for you then that is all that matters
I think nowadays it is almost more important to mix for headphones and small speakers as this is how music seems to be consumed the most so I wouldn’t stop listening on different setups
I am a firm believer that the human brain adapts really well to listening environments - so it may take you a while to “re-learn” and not over-compensate
You are definitely on the right lines with using reference tracks though so as long as you keep the listening environment the same then you are golden
It appears Magic AB is discontinued so you could just set up some “reference tracks” in your DAW and make sure they go directly to your output (bypassing all effects)
It is likely that commercial tracks will be mastered very loud so when mixing just drop the channel fader on the reference tracks to match your mixing level
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@jacksimmons (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=18881) - Good to hear from you Jack, interesting to hear of your experience with arc.
Like @Boydie (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=18510) - I use a similar plugin called adptr A/B, it works pretty much the same way, (I think IK Multimedia do one in their Tracks 5 as well) simply load the track you want to compare your song to as track A and pop yours in track b and there's loads of tools (zoom, filters etc) and different ways of looking at it (loudness, spectrum, dynamics, polarity) that you can use to get your's the same, I think it's on offer at the moment from here, I can heartily recommend it Jack, it's also a great way of learning about how other producers work.
They recommend not to use a mastered reference track..but who has access to commercial pre mastered wavs?
.btw the metering in adptr is pretty good.
I nearly always mix and master under cans, to me it's the most intimate and accurate place to work.
the software is here
https://www.plugin-alliance.com/en/products/adptr_metricab.html (https://www.plugin-alliance.com/en/products/adptr_metricab.html)
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@cowparsleyman (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=21308) @Jack Simmons (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=18691)
I nearly always mix and master under cans, to me it's the most intimate and accurate place to work.
I completely agree @cowparsleyman (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=21308)
My personal view is that the advantages of mixing on cans (ie taking the room effect out of the equation) far outweigh the disadvantages
Combining headphones and headphones with speaker simulation (Focusrite VRM or Waves NX) can allow you to hear your mixes in a variety of simulated environments and even on different systems
This can really help with tweaking and learning how mixes will translate to different systems
I would also include "real world" listening such as monitors, speakers, mobile phones, and the tried and trusted "sitting in the car"
But a big +1 to headphone from me (as long as you have an awareness of the pitfalls)
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I mix on Beyer dynamic DT 770 pro headphones,, I have two pairs of speakers but I don't use them for checking anything..just the odd blast of a song.....I think you just need to get used to your headphones and by the way, every song I've heard from you sounded fine here.. :)
@Jack Simmons (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=18691)
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I mix on Beyer dynamic DT 770 pro headphones,, I have two pairs of speakers but I don't use them for checking anything..just the odd blast of a song.....I think you just need to get used to your headphones and by the way, every song I've heard from you sounded fine here.. :)
@Jack Simmons (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=18691)
@Jack Simmons (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=18691) - I agree with shadowfax, I've never heard bad things in your mixes, not even the demo of "Habit of a lifetime" you sent me.
Trust your ears Jack, and if you find that you are forever twiddling the mix after you have released something, that's a surefire sign that your mixing environment isn't telling you the truth.
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Thank you for the replies guys. what was once alien and impenetrable to me a few years ago is actually becoming super interesting. I am glad there wasn't total aversion to the room correction software. I have read elsewhere people saying it wasn't at all worth it. I am yet to use it on a big project, but I almost have another album of songs to get to work on. I will report back about the results.
@Boydie (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=18510) I think I have gotten to know my headphones pretty well. (KNK on your recommendation I believe). I recognise the exaggerated stereo field and this can often cause me to mix vox too low in them which I will have to compensate for. Is it worth solely mixing on headphones? I noticed all you guys have said you stick to your cans. I sort of switch between cans and studio speakers and aim for something that sounds goodish on both.
@cowparsleyman (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=21308) that software looks very interesting. I can't afford it right now unfortunately but I'm adding it to the list. I may try out Waves NX, though.
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I think you just need to get used to your headphones and by the way, every song I've heard from you sounded fine here.. :)
@Jack Simmons (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=18691)
Thanks @shadowfax (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=20024) That's a good sign I am heading in the right direction.
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I sort of switch between cans and studio speakers and aim for something that sounds goodish on both.
And that is exactly the name of the game!!! ;D
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@jacksimmons (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=18881) - tell me more about your experiences with Arc.
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I bought waves NX today on the back of this...it’s on special and a pretty amazing plugin...
Quick question for the techs ?
When I enter the plugin it seems to be increasing my output by a couple of dbs - is this normal ? In my own mind if it’s just for mointoring I don’t know why it’s doing that 🤯
Great thread btw 👏🏻👏🏻
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I bought waves NX today on the back of this...it’s on special and a pretty amazing plugin...
Quick question for the techs ?
When I enter the plugin it seems to be increasing my output by a couple of dbs - is this normal ? In my own mind if it’s just for mointoring I don’t know why it’s doing that 🤯
Great thread btw 👏🏻👏🏻
Hi Andy, this is interesting, have you got the cam setup so it follows your head? do update this to let me know how you get on with it.
I honestly don't know about the increase in volume, if you master externally to your DAW, then you might need to allow a bit more, if you master the mix either in the same session as the mix, then you'll be fine, how did you spot it? do you use a Adptr A/B plug?
@jacksimmons (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=18881) - O by the way, I remembered something there is a plugin called Expose made by Mastering the Mix, and that'll check your loudness etc, it's pretty basic but do a few handy things, they do some nice mastering check tools at quite a low cost.
Hope this helps
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Awesome thanks @cowparsleyman (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=21308) I will check that out instead.
Another quickie: When switching between my speakers and headphones, should I be switching off the room correction? I assume because they are correcting THE ROOM, I shouldn't need the EQ for the headphones?
If that's the case I should expect the sound between my speakers and cans to be closer than before?
Although I think I know the answer already I thought I'd run it past you guys anyway.
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Awesome thanks @cowparsleyman (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=21308) I will check that out instead.
Another quickie: When switching between my speakers and headphones, should I be switching off the room correction? I assume because they are correcting THE ROOM, I shouldn't need the EQ for the headphones?
If that's the case I should expect the sound between my speakers and cans to be closer than before?
Although I think I know the answer already I thought I'd run it past you guys anyway.
jack, it really depends on the headphones, it's very likely they will not be near the same as the corrected speaker environment.
Even if they are really top end reference cans, it's unlikely they'll respond the same.
The same speakers will sound different if wound up to very loud, to being very quiet, the human ear perceives frequencies differently and different SPL's (Sound Pressure Levels)
In my experience, I would decide which environment I want to work in most, cans or speakers, and then stick to that, don't jump about too much, you'll find it hard to judge, and start changing the mix, based on the differences you hear, it's really important to have a fixed reference environment.
I tend to listen in Mono as I go, to me that's more important than listening on speakers.
I know it's useful to keep the cans at a fixe level, try not to touch the Monitor level, and you'll find your mixes will be comparatively even, use the usual loudness meters, and keep an eye on the DR (Dynamic Range), generally a wide DR is a more interesting mix.
The other thing is how you approach a mix, for example I have phases where I want a bit more bass in my mixes, and I can only control that if I know my environment like the back of my hand, also how my tools work, one has to know how say the Elysia Alpha Compressor's LPF works as opposed to the Shadow Hills Class A, you can only get consistent results if that is the only thing that is changing, once you introduce too many variables, I only use my speakers as a post production check, and say Yip that's sounds OK, then in the car, and as a private stream from soundcloud on a couple of different earbuds.
If on all those sources it sounds OK, then bingo.
Hope this helps
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@cowparsleyman (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=21308) @Boydie (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=18510)
I plan to start recording again soon, and I was considering recording a new tune and mixing it three ways from scratch, using different methods (one with the Arc 2.0 on and using just my speakers to mix, one with it off and using just the headphones, and one with it off but aiming for something that sounds acceptable on both).
If I post all three when they are done it would be awesome to get some feedback as to which one you guys think sounds better on your end.
Same goes for anyone else commenting or reading this thread.
I may be overthinking things, worrying too much etc. I don't know.
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@jacksimmons (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=18881) - Of course I’ll try and help...what are you going to record?
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@jacksimmons (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=18881) - Of course I’ll try and help...what are you going to record?
Great :D
I have had a bit of a rush these last two weeks and written almost an album's worth of material, so I will record one of these songs. That way any feedback will be useful going forward with the sound of the rest of the tracks.
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@jacksimmons (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=18881)
It would be a pleasure
It would be good to do this “blind” - ie don’t let anyone know how each version was mixed to remove any unconscious bias
It is all important to remember that we can try to be objective but choosing a “best” mix will still be quite subjective - it definitely a worthwhile experiment
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Hi all
Been reading through this thread, heres my tuppany hape worth (Whatever that is).
So I have cubase pro with control room.
I recently started to look into this whole room and headphone mixing thing a lot more.
Added correction plugs into control room.
The way I have it at the moment is a room correction EQ curve on my monitor chain (room is treated best I can), measurements taken with a behringer measurement mike and Room eq wizard. Its OK but not magical.
my headphone chain, I am running DT770 then a corrective curve to flatten these and onto Waves NX.
The results sounded strange at first, but my ears got used to the sound, Now when I switch off eq and NX, it sounds aweful. Added to this, with the correction on and NX, my track translates much better to my car or ear buds.
Over time I have messed with a lot of different stuff and your ear can become familiar very quick.
Good luck peeps.
Andy
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Great thread ...
An alternative thought to correction is whatever you use, be in headphones, speakers etc. is to get used to it by listening to stuff you already know. To basically 'get some in' so you know how stuff you like sounds in your monitoring situation. Bob Katz, Mike Senior and others are great believers in reference mixes, ideally in the genre you are working in, to do A/B comparisons. Provided you match volume levels it's another tool in the toolbox.
If you are listening on headphones you get used to their colouration and with speakers the speakers AND the room. I guess you are making cogitative allowances and is probably what all early studio pioneers had to do.
In some ways there is a lot to be said for not treating your studio just as a 'studio', but to use your music platform to watch and listen to stuff in general. Your brain is switched off from 'music making' but it's all going in so when it's time to make music things are more familiar, the 'Good' and the 'Bad'.
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@MrBouzouki (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=22320) - As I mix most of the time under cans, it's a constant sonic environment, not affected by anything, always wrong, always right, and as Ian Shepherd recommends don't touch that monitor volume knob, then that's constant too.
After a few iterations of mixing and listening you'll know what to do to get it right.
So much easier than acoustically treating a studio, even then, in most studio there are usually near field Auratones, Mid Field NS10's and some hefty Tannoy Golds/Reds or similar, so which one do you treat the room for?
Hope this helps.
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@cowparsleyman (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=21308) ... aye it has to be mostly cans in my little shoebox of a room. ;D
You need the detail that headphones can provide but you have to be wary of totally relying on them for all your decision-making I feel.
A bit of both and multiple ways to try to get a handle on translation seems sensible. Also the bottom end for some people, particularly for bass-heavy genres is a devil when you haven't got some bigger cones moving the air.
It's interesting how things have changed over the last few decades. So many people are working in the box out of tiny spaces and delivering to the masses who are listening on earbuds, iPads, Amazon speakers and using compressed streaming services.
It makes you wonder why we obsess so much ehhhhh ;D ;D ;D
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This thread has become really fascinating (and daunting). I love how it took off.
@cowparsleyman (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=21308) @Boydie (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=18510) and anyone else who is interested in taking part of this experiment. Today I made three different versions of a new tune called Riot Act, one was mixed entirely on my KRK KNS-8400 Headphones, one mixed entirely on my KRK Rokit5s in my little recording room (with all the pitfalls that come with it), and one was mixed while flicking between the two to get a sound that is passable on both.
All of this is to my ears and I'm not the most experienced but it will be interesting to see which one you guys think sounds 'the best'.
I've kept them anonymous so you guys can't tell which one is which.
These are rough mixes but I am hoping they bring out potential biases and pitfalls in the different mixing environments. I was going to do a 4th mix with my room correction software on but I haven't had time tonight. Will get round to that soon.
I am really interested to see how this pans out. Thank you all in advance for taking part in this experiment :D
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Hi @Jack Simmons (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=18691) To me V2 the vocals had most clarity but V3 the vocals were more in the mix. It's like one of these secret taster sessions innit ?
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Thanks for your input John! Most helpful.
I am thinking of offering a prize to whoever can guess which mix is which. A home telephone and a crystal tea set will be winging their way to the winner...
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Hiya
@jacksimmons (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=18881)
I think V3 is the best mix and has the best balance
To be fair the mixes sound very similar to my ears on a first listen
It is impossible to tell what they were mixed on - but where is the fun in that...
If I had to guess (and give a reason)....
V1 was mixed on the Speakers - my thinking is that this version has the "weakest" bass, which is notoriously difficult to mix on smaller speakers
V2 was the headphones & speakers - my thinking is the stereo field sounds a bit more balanced and detailed
V3 was mixed on headphones - my thinking is that hearing your vocal so direct made you turn it down a bit
This is all a complete guess
I think you have done a great job with the mixes - in all cases I think you need a "stronger" bass. A combination of a stronger actual sound and then mixing it a bit higher in the mix would give a stronger foundation to the track
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@Jack Simmons (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=18691) - Hi jack that was fun indeed, sorry for the delay in getting back to you.
All very nice, but quite different to my ears.
I preferred v3, the kick had the best punch, and nice instrument separation
V1 was a bit bland, needed mastering more than the others.
V2 was better
I couldn't begin to guess what you mixed them on, would be a pain were it the 'Flicking' session.
Great song Jack, great to hear your work again, you are one talented Artist.
R