The Songwriter Forum - songwriting reviews, tips and chat
Songwriter Forum => Recording => Topic started by: cowparsleyman on April 16, 2018, 08:24:43 AM
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I don't normally use an overall master buss comp as I like the sound to be as 'open and airy' as possible, but I interested to give it a try, this one is highly rated, but does anyone out there use it?
cpm
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I use it ALL the time
IMHO it works best used sparingly across tracks busses to "glue" elements together
Eg on your drum bus to glue the drums together, on a group vocal, string groups etc.
It is also a great first step in the mastering process - just "tickle" the needle and you are good to go
I am about to post another thread alerting people to the current offer of $29 for the SSL G-Master Buss Comp and $29 for the SSL E-Channel - which is no brainer territory IMHO
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Thanks Boydie, I'll be forever in your debt.
cpm
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I sell a hardware compressor based on the SSL bus compressor, so I guess I use some version of this. I often have one on the bench plugged in. Boydie is right, use sparingly. I wouldn't call it open an airy, being a VCA compressor, you can really make it crunch if you over do it.
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I sell a hardware compressor based on the SSL bus compressor, so I guess I use some version of this. I often have one on the bench plugged in. Boydie is right, use sparingly. I wouldn't call it open an airy, being a VCA compressor, you can really make it crunch if you over do it.
Thanks for the info Ramshackles, I'll tickle the needle.
cpm
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Hi Guys,
I use the IK multimedia version of the classic Bus comp. I read as a basic rule of thumb, never let it compress more than 4 db on the master bus for that (GLUE), Whatever that actually is.
Cheers
Andy
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never let it compress more than 4 db on the master bus for that (GLUE), Whatever that actually is.
I would definitely concur with this
IMHO the "glue" people refer to is the compressor giving everything going through it the same "colour" (i.e. Sonic imprint) and the compression gives everything the same broad dynamic "movement" as it compresses and then releases, which brings (glues) everything together
This is just my take on it but it makes sense to me
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You could be spot on Boydie,
I always feel it just calms the mix down slighly and makes it pump just a little.
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Unless using it as an effect I think hearing a compressor "pump" is usually not a good thing, although as always what is not "right" sometimes "best"
The more I learn and get in to "production" the more I realise that the "pro sound" is more about lots (and lots and lots) of VERY subtle things mixed together rather than broad effects or single "magic bullet" solutions
It makes learning it all much harder but the rewards getting ever closer to that "professional" clarity, with warmth, that sparkles and shines with lots of dynamics but still being loud!!!
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Hi Boydie,
Yeh agree pumping on a mix not good, (unless like you say, a dance track)
I always drop it on the master bus, in my mastering chain, after a subtle Linear EQ, tiny bit of work from the soft clipper.
I find after this it gives a bit of control but makes it come alive a little. (hence my pumping statement)
Then on to widening, exciting and on to the final limiter.
Cheers
Andy
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Thanks for all the responses, I'll be trying things out soon, I've managed to pickup the Waves CLA classic compressors bundle for 39 quid so I think I have enough now (also the Russian Molot) that emulates the Fairchild 670 so I'll do a bunch of benchmarks to see where they are useful, also downloaded the Acustica Free TAN compressor (that sounds pretty good indeed).
@Cawproductions (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=20938) - Thanks for the advice, I really appreciate it, do you always use a limiter at the end of your master fx chain?. I've learned that lesson about lots of little things rather than a big thick spreading of peanut butter, I think that's why I've avoided comps on my master buss, I want it to breathe, I used to put just a stereo enhancer on the master buss, then master it in soundforge where I'd normalise it, but often the dynamic range would dissappear, so I stopped doing that.
If I had any more compressors I'll be able to make music cider...I'll let you know how it goes, it might be that you don't hear anything in my songs as all the juice has been squeezed out, I think it'll be hard for me to learn using these as it's very very subtle.
@Boydie (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=18510) - Thanks for your advice, I think you're right about that, if it sounds right to your ears then it is right.
cpm
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Hi CPM
Yeh, My final plug in is my Limiter, How much to push that limiter...? thats a tricky question, I read that you can push your limiter until your ears start to hear it squashed then back it off. Its one way. Lots of other people have other opinions. It works for me though.
I master and mix completely in the box on my song project...Yeh, yeh, I hear a lot of old school guys saying NOOOOO.
It works and it save going back, fixing things then having to render out again.
Basically in Cubase, I create a Mix bus that sits before my master bus.All tracks are routed to the mix bus,. All may mastering plugs sit on this bus. Then I can add reference tracks that outputs directly to my stereo out enabling me to compare with my reference. Anything not working in the master, easy to fix. Hope that makes sense.
Heres my master chain. (It may not be industry standard but it works for me)
Linear Phase EQ - Softclipper - Masterbus Comp - Multiband Widener - Exciter - Brickwall Limter
Multiband compression could slot in there if required.
I am sure there are many ways to master but this is just one, Hope its some help.
Cheers
Andy
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Hi Andy
Yes it does help, and yes it does make sense, I tend to use instrument submix busses and then have an non LVox Mix buss, so at least I can stick a s/c Comp on it if I need to.
I think you should stick with what works for you and you'll get your signature 'CAW Productions' sound, and artists will want that sound.
Thanks again Andy, I think I could chat for ages with you.....
cpm
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I have a very similar approach to @Cawproductions (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=20938)
I am also now 100% "in the box"
I have all my tracks go to sub busses and then "master busses" - before they go to my actual "Master Buss"
E.g. If I have 4 individual rhythm guitar tracks and 2 lead guitar tracks my routing would be:
4 rhythm guitar tracks -> Rhtyhm Git bus -> Guitar Master Bus -> MASTER BUS
2 lead guitar tracks -> Lead Git bus -> Guitar Master Bus -> MASTER BUS
When mixing I have options to reduce increase either all rhythm or lead guitars on one fader (the "git busses") AND I can raise or lower ALL guitars using the "Guitar Master Bus"
If I want to provide some bus compression to glue all of the rhythm guitars together I simply put the ssl bus compressor on the "Rythm Guitar Master" bus and all 4 rhythm guitar instantly all take on the same tonal flavour of the compressor and the same subtle compressor "movement" to glue them together
This flexibility with routing is really useful - and once you set up a template all the routing it instantly there
I take the same approach with all instrument/vocal groups
The MASTER BUS then has my mastering chain ready to go (but when I am mixing I leave this turned off so I do not "mix in" to any mastering effects - I just concentrate on getting a good mix and do a separate mastering process. Others like to "mix in" to mastering effects so this is a personal choice
A typical master chain for me would be:
Master bus compression (The SSL bus compressor we are talking about - but VERY subtly used)
Mastering EQ
Any "exciter" effect
Multiband compression
Stereo effects (usually multiband narrowing and widening effects)
Analogue Tape Saturation (if a warm analogue sound is appropriate)
Final corrective EQ - another instance of a mastering EQ for some final shaping
Limiter - a brick wall limiter set to -0.3db to avoid any clipping - as @Cawproductions (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=20938) has said the key final judgement is how much to apply - the basic balance is overall volume (i.e. Getting the track to commercial volume levels to stand up against commercial mixes) against retaining the dynamics of the tracks
For me this is definitely the "dark art" bit and is purely a judgement call based purely on the song (as is the rest of the mastering but this last step is where the whole process can be made to sound amazing or all the hard work gets ruined!)
The time taken moving the final limiter to the perfect level is a big part of the process for me
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@Boydie (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=18510) Thanks very much, really interesting, up till now I don't use exciters, which one do you use @Cawproductions (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=20938) - and you?
Rgds
cpm
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Hi Guys,
I have been reading a lot about overall loudness and LUFS, PML etc, Also how dynamic range can affect perceived loudness.
Been looking for those magic settings to get my mixes on Spotify and other platforms to compare with commercial mixes.
Bit of a minefield.
@Boydie (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=18510) Pleased you didnt slate my workflow, seems more and more people are adopting the new "in the box" Method. IMHO there is no point following old workflows that were only in place because there was'nt an easier option.
I work the same as you guys, with group busses for similar instruments.
@cowparsleyman (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=21308) Absolutely no problems PM'ing me with any opinions, questions, chat etc. I am no pro but I do love all the production stuff.
The forum is a great place to pick up tips from lots of people.
Cheers guys and interesting chat.
Andy
From a sunny Plymouth......summer could be here..... :D
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Hi CPM,
I use the quadrafuzz plug, Its like a multi band exciter, great for just brightening thing up.
Its included in Cubase pro.
Sure Logic has one.
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Andy, I got all inspired by Ian Shephard, he really taught me a thing or two, I then went and tried out a load of tests with the same material to understand what he was on about, enabled the Loudness meters in Soundforge and I'm one happy guy, that explains a lot about the way my songs sound, and why I don't use compressors when mastering, but I will look into it.
It's truly amazing that folk think that louder sounds better.
cpm
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Yeh Ian Shepherd knows his stuff.
I guess its just how our ears work but not normalization algorithms.
Everyday is a school day for me on this topic.
I have tried loud mixes, -9LUFS, now spotify limits to -14LUFS, a different one for soundcloud. etc.
I think I have settled on most of my mixes having a long term LUFS level of around -11LUFS. Pushed into the final limiter with it just catching the very highest peaks. But watching those ISP (intersampled peaks).
Think boydie is spot on, setting you final limiter -0.3db. A safe level but the overall volume not noticeably reduced.
Just the way I am working at the mo but always watching videos on this stuff, It intrigues me...
Cheers.
Andy
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Thanks Andy, I try to aim for -12lufs
cpm