The Songwriter Forum - songwriting reviews, tips and chat
Songwriter Forum => The Bar => Topic started by: mickyplankton on March 20, 2018, 06:51:47 PM
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This is such a widespread and commonly used method to end a song. Many quality songwriters on this forum use it. I'm curious to know folks view on this technique, and also what influences the thought process when a decision is taken to deploy it.
Any examples of songs where it works really well?
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Good topic!
Personally I'm not a fan of fade outs. Tend to think fade out = cop out! As if the writer couldn't be bothered to 'resolve' the song.
But that said, I do use them occasionally and also hear them used on this forum sometimes to great effect.
I suppose they work best when some kind of massive build has been going on just beforehand ("Hey Jude" etc) and it would be anti-climactic to stop that.
I also like it a lot when the fade out does something unexpected just as it disappears, as if the song is continuing in a new direction but you just don't get to hear it. I'm struggling to think of a good example of that right now ... anyone? ... but I know I love it when I hear one.
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I mostly try to avoid fade outs, but I've been known to use them. I think they're most effective or useful on a song that doesn't really have an ending that wraps up nice and neat on the tonic but has an element that "feels" like it keeps wanting to circle back and go again, over and over.
Or, I once used it on a song with an ending comprised of a list, and I wanted to give the impression it went on and on and on, so I started singing the list and faded it out, rendering it beyond hearing before I got to the end of the list. The song was my family's Christmas "card" one year, and the ending was a list of all the things that are observed in December besides Christmas. Fading out emphasized and exaggerated the length of the list.
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I like them and use them a lot... I don’t think about it much...often I use “proper” endings possibly because I gig every week and all the songs have to have a definite ending...but a few of them have sort of “fake” endings... “Oliver’s Army” springs to mind
I’d rather hear a fade out than a glaringly-obvious signposted ending.
The song I’m about to upload had an ending...then, stylistically, I thought a fade-out would suit better...but after I’d done that instead...I wasn’t so keen, so reverted back to the original ending. I doubt anyone would care except me. And I didn’t care much either :D
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For me a fade out should be used to imply that the "party" is carrying on after the song has finished
This is why I think it is always best to end the fade out at the BEGINNING of a bar/section rather than ending the fade at the end of a bar
My favourite example is the cover of LaBamba by Los Lobos
In my mind that party is still going!!
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I was getting all defensive for a minute there about fade-outs because I thought I used them a lot then realised that I have a definite ending more often. In fact on my...ahem...album of eleven songs only 4 have fade out endings. They all fade with an instrument solo going on...two with kind of improvised vocals over that. These were all conscious decisions not just because I couldn't think of an ending. My songs just seem to dictate the way they're going to end....I always know after a certain amount of work on them.
So, to now answer your question about the thought process involved Micky, I right now find myself wondering whether I'm not deluding myself with what I just said and previously thought and if in fact I ended them the fade-out way because I DID'NT have a concrete ending for them which I did have for the other songs!
Anyway, for me they work!
I could probably excuse myself with Boydie's reason for 2 of them.
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To be honest, I reckon it can work either way. I do like a nice neat ending BUT sometimes a fade out can be really effective, not just because the writer couldn't be bothered. Take "Now I'm Here" by Queen as an example. As it fades it breaks into a Chuck Berry number, Go, go, go little queenie. I just wished I could of heard the rest of that Jam session. I used to turn the volume up to 12 for that bit but Alas they were in the studio knocking out amazing songs and I had to go to school tomorrow (Well it was 1975 !) Anyway my point is that the fade out delivered a great "What happens next" vibe and it worked
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Yo Micky.
Thought process you ask?
Hmmm,I'm not sure I have one of those. ??? Usually I just do stuff! :D
I use fade out when I think that's the way the song ought to go. I'm a fan of a build up towards the end,then fade it out and the party goes on (copyright Boydie)
I think (with me anyway) it's all what the song demands.
One thing I do dislike and you'll find me comment on it frequently,is an inconclusive ending. All that effort goes into writing and recording a fine song then....it either randomly peters out or abruptly stops. :(
I don't class a fade out as a cop out,like Pauly says,but I can see how it could be used that way,as if the writer cba finishing the song. It's just another tool which works well in context.
I often put more work into ending a song than any other part,because I think beginnings and endings are often a 'do rightly'.
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Usually not into them. Not sure why, just usually another idea appeals more. I think I would be tempted either where the song is about being trapped in a repetitive situation trying to escape, or where I had a absolutely killer riff that really carried the song and I wanted to leave everyone remembering. The former much more likely in my case of course!
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I'm kinda indifferent to them but I do get Boydie's point re the feeling of continuing on the party. I remember being told once fade outs were not common in commercial pop these days but I also heard Ryan Tedder say in an interview that still he swears by them!
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TBH I am not really bothered by them. I don't do that with my own songs but i do agree with paulyx that it's a bit lazy and a cop out.
Johnny :)
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Some good points in here. I can see the merits of a fade out in specific contexts and Boydies and Pompey Jazz these are fine examples. I personally try to avoid them as aim for a live feel to recordings so prefer a clean finish. (Sometimes with a messy drum roll to complete!)
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My answer is the same about fade outs as it is about just about every question: it depends upon the song.
For some, a resolution gives the song a "finished" feel; for some the resolution sounds kinda cheesy... ending on the tonic, and all, and a fade out is probably the better call. Usually I "finish" the song, myself. But there are a couple of occasions where I would have preferred a fade.
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theyre something of an art form or can be
think of 'sitting on the dock of the bay' for instance ..
you instantly recall the haunting whistling melody as it fades into the mists..absolutely perfect
or 'hello goodbye' ..brilliant fade considering the title, how else could it end when you think about it..
whereas 'hey jude' i can't abide the fade ..
im wandering thro the glory swamps of the 60s here..
im sure theres a million or more examples
horses for corsets really.
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Walk On The Wild Side...can't imagine it just ending dead...but i'm used to it the way it works.
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Personally I think it depends on the song. I've heard a lot of songs that end abruptly where I'd like a little more of the chorus and a fade out would fit the bill nicely.
On the other hand, I've heard some songs that fade out that would have benefited from wither continuing a little longer (hey, when you get a great chorus that you just can't help singing along to, who wants to stop? :p ) and then maybe fading out.
I think cop out ( @PaulyX (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=21034) I think it was) is a gross over-generalisation. To me it either suits the song or it doesn't. Sometimes a song just doesn't want to end and "fade out" gives it a graceful way out...
Ps. When I first started writing songs I wrote in album lots... one of them was called Fadeout. So maybe I'm biased! :p
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Sorry for being gross Sterix. It happens a lot...
Yep, I probably was a bit harsh on the "FO", it's just that I tend to like songs that swagger in, kick over a dustbin, and leave. Like I said above though, there are definite exceptions to that, particularly if the FO starts doing its own funky thing as it walks off into the sunset. My last post but one also had a fade out, so I'm hypocritical anyway!
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Been chuckling reading this thread.
We like to hit the last chord, like @PaulyX (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=21034), kick something and throw something out the hotel window.
Go out in a blaze of.....well, not glory but you get the drift.
Andy
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Fade outs can be very creative, like fade in's, I heard a fade in the other day that blew my mind, and I'm going to borrow the idea on my next tune.
Fade outs can surprise, re iterate a reprise, I love them and think of them as a real opportunity to finish the song in a way you least expect, I agree it's obvious when people are lazy and just fade to black, but if you can make them smile or surprise that's worth it, I think of it like the lingering 'Finish' of a good scotch, it's there way after it's gone.
cpm