The Songwriter Forum - songwriting reviews, tips and chat
Songwriter Forum => The Bar => Topic started by: Viscount Cramer & His Orchestra on March 02, 2018, 11:50:06 AM
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Sometimes it would be nice to be able to really launch into somebody and tell them that their song is dull and boring wouldn't it? I expect there are some who would like to do that to me. I wouldn't like it much and I don't suppose anyone else would either so we don't do that.
We say it's great instead. Everything's great.
We get the odd frank comment which doesn't always go down well and even those who make the frank comments get snippy if anyone is less than thrilled about their stuff...so people generally say that everything is great to avoid unpleasantness.
This glossing over is not really much use to anyone is it? Just a bunch of people patting each other on the back.
I'm struggling to get back into reviewing again....to dream up ways of expressing misgivings or dissatisfaction without causing offence...it's a lot of effort.....or I could just say that everything is great......
I think we ought to introduce an anonymous rating somehow where you can rate the song as well.
So you can say it's great in public to appease everybody's sensibilities then privately give it a 1 because that's what you really think about it. This would also be more useful to the poster who would then have a more realistic gauge of how the song went down rather than having to read between the lines of all the gushing praise.
I'd feel much better then lying through my teeth about a song knowing that I'd registered my true feelings with a big fat zero.
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This is 100% what has just been going through my mind.
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Hi Viscount.
I think what you say is an absolute load of rubbish....only joking.
I've only been on this forum a short while, but I have noticed there is a bit of that going on. It's not so much launching into someone, but telling them what they need to do to improve, and if there is something that is quite personal then there's always a PM, where the truth can be delivered with a degree of honesty.
Recently I heard one song, which was structurally OK, but the singing was way out of tune, so what do you do? say that's awful? The way I approached it was..Do you know you sing out of tune? What are your aspirations? if you do know your out of tune and want to make money then you need to do something about it, don't be lazy.
If artists and songwriters think of it as a day job and then everything becomes clear,
The other point is that 100 people might hate it, but 101 might love it.
Ever bought a CD on the back of 100's reviews and thought what a crock?
cpm
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Hey there
I agree, there can be a lot of 'back patting', which *is* kind of pointless because although it gives you a short term ego boost, it doesn't actually do anything to help you..or even give you a new fan (if they don't honestly think its great).
But, just telling someone their song is rubbish is equally pointless. What does it achieve? I also don't think saying 'its great' in public then sending a private message with your criticism is particularly helpful either. The advice in that private message could be useful to many.
It is important to post a constructive review. I try to always post my thoughts on what could be improved, or at least try to express *why* a particular song or part doesn't sound good to me.
I'm sure that sometimes I can come off as too direct/harsh, especially when I have weighed in on a thread which is full of the aforementioned back patting...but I like to think I have added something truly positive to the discussion and I will continue to do it. (Even though I think it can have a negative affect on getting my own feedback, which maybe contributes a little as to why I don't post many songs on here).
However, I do try to find something positive to say about the song. I try to make this specific as well.
I think/hope most people are actually looking constructive criticism rather than just posting for likes/views.
To sum up, I think you should feel perfectly OK to be frank in reviews, but be constructive and be polite.
What not to do:
'Your singing is awful'
How to do it better:
'To me, the vocal is out of tune and detrimental to the sound of the song. You could work on that?'
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I know what you mean. Also when someone's got a new song out and they go round just before and give 20 one-line "great song" reviews... And for sure I find myself holding back (but then I also think "who am I?") or preferring to say nothing.
Some people actively encourage honest reviews. Perhaps we could have a badge system where you could have a little icon next to your picture which indicates "I can take it" or "be gentle with me" as applicable...
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This comes up every now and again, and I agree you can feel slightly constrained by the implied etiquette here.
For my money, the answer lies with the poster. Say what kind of feedback you want when you post the song. If you don't, you may just end up with a handful of empty and ultimately unhelpful remarks.
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To me the root of these issues is ALWAYS down to the original poster not expressing what they want from a review
When the OP gives a detailed summary of what feedback they are looking for the reviews tend to be much more useful, detailed and focussed - and easier to give
eg I would approach reviewing the following 2 posts completely differently:
1 - I have written this song, which I intend to pitch to...
2 - This is my first song that I have written and I am keen to improve my songwriting
It would also be handy to know if they want detailed feedback on any particular areas - eg lyrics, melody, chords, structure, arrangement, performance, recording quality, production, mix, mastering etc.
I do tend to find that the forum community does tend to naturally balance out, with some people picking up lyrics things, others production things - but if the OP is crystal clear it will help those reviewing
I do intend to refresh / improve the guidelines to encourage those posting to give more details about the type of feedback they want
I am definitely NOT in favour of anonymous ratings - if members can't find a constructive way to give honest feedback then I think that is something they should develop
I have toyed with introducing a specific "form" that needs to filled in when posting a song to ensure that more detail is captured from the OP - but I think this would change the "casual" dynamic of the forum so is not something I want to do at the moment
I think some gentle "guidance and coaching" to encourage members to post more info with their original post would be a good first step to address this type of issue, which always comes up from time to time
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Hello. Been away for a bit (new job), plus the muse has completely shipped out recently. Hope you're all good.
Personally I love the idea of an anonymous 'score' - not to replace, but to sit alongside, the comments. Otherwise it's really hard to judge objectively amongst all the politeness if your song is really better than the last one you posted. I'd find it really motivational if I got a 6 then a 7 then an 8 etc. I wouldn't want it to compete with other posters, but to compete with myself if you know what I mean.
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My concern in general is that the original poster is unspecific in what he/she want's to get feedback on. A rating system optional by the OP might be good for more anonymous posts. When the OP is more specific a rating might be a bit superfluous. If the OP asks about the key change and gets no posts but average score 3.7, more is needed.
Maybe if I wrote more negative posts my positive posts might appear stronger.
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I kinda 'get' where this sentiment is coming from. Sometimes there's nearly a natural tendency to unthinkingly say that a song is good - 'good' though is completely subjective. In a nod to Boydie's previous comments though, sometimes I've seen people post songs they plan to pitch commercially that simply don't have much commercial appeal at all. While they are no doubt a 'nice' song they are a million miles off being hit material -either the lyrics lack edge, the production isn't in line with current (ie 2017/18) style, it's too long etc. Fine, of course, if the song is simply to express oneself and for one's own consumption but not so fine if it's ultimately meant to be commercial and will be pitched.
To mitigate sounding like an a$%hole a bit, I should point out that I myself have/am learning this the hard way; people who have a proven record in writing commercially viable hits will NOT shy away from telling you something is 'nice' or 'good' but not a 'hit'. Doesn't mean of course that you can't/won't write something that is hit standard but you most at least be prepared for a long drawn out process of returning to square one, re-writing re-thinking and tweaking in line with frank and honest feedback that might dent the ego a little but will ultimately lift you to a new level in terms of knowing what is commercially viable and learning how to hone and guide your writing towards that.
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All interesting stuff. One point I wanted to highlight is that there are quite a few guys on here that have no aspirations to make a hit record etc etc but just want some open and honest feedback. I've got no problem with that and I've learned one helluva lot from the feedback. Critique is very valuable . Also if you don't like the genres, influences in a song there is no need to slag it off just because of that. My ethos is to review each song as a song. I thought that was the idea ?
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Oh great - now the Viscount's got me thinking that every positive comment I get is just gratuitous back-patting and entirely disingenuous! :o So, before I go off in the corner to suck my thumb for comfort, I'll just say that both positive and negative (constructive!) comments are important on the forum. The positive ones bolster my confidence and make me feel my friends on here support my efforts. The constructive ones feed my desire to improve (and make me feel my friends on here support my efforts ;D) I've often thought a rating/scoring system would only be useful if non-songwriters were doing the ratings. No offence to songwriters ;D ;D
BTW - I think a good critique is to mention a few things you liked about the track and how it could be improved. Some would call that a worm sandwich, but I prefer to think of it as spoon full of sugar - plus a little medicine.
My 2 cents CAD 8)
Paul
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Hi as a newbie I was guity of adding some lyrics then putting some nice comments once I listened to someone's song as it was the thing to do - mainly because I'm no songwriter and don't really know anything about music but I don't know I think that I came to a point where I thought this is a waste of my time and probably to whoever posted the song , I mean maybe what I say might actually help .
I think part of the problem is that I've been on other sites ( Facebook , trans groups ) where people are quite nasty at times and everything gets so personal .
But I realise that bu listening to other people's work you are actually improving yourself , getting another angle , picking up ideas . So you aren't just helping them by giving feedback you are helping.yourself, nobody likes to,be critisised and there is a positive way of doing it .
Other wise it will be like the X-factor where family and friends tell someone how wonderful they are and when somebody tells them that they don't like it or make a criticism they can't handle it .
At the end of the day I think that the whole point of a site like this is to share ideas in a positive way encouraging each other and being honest in a nice way without fear and if someone someone reads my observation and thinks mmmm - maybe they are right and goes away and either thinks yes maybe they are right and make a few changes or I get what they are saying but I'll leave it as if is then that can only be a good thing , we have to be able to grow and just by saying oh yes blah blah blah that's not going to happen .
I'm quite happy for anyone to make observations and tell me whatever they are when I post lyrics as long as they say how brilliant they are ( only joking )
Thanks Katie xxx
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there is absolutely nothing wrong with saying you did not like a song, you just need to explain why...if they're out of time..say so, if they're out of tune..say so, etc...or just don't bother reviewing that particular song,
the problem with the points system would be that some peeps would use it to score political points rather than use it to indicate what they think of a song...an anonymous system is a system for cowards...
we all put songs up on this forum that are not perfect and it would be very easy to slag them all off..where would that get us?
I often review a song that I personally would not listen to, but whether or not I actually like the song is not relevant, it's about the effort made by the songwriter, if they are out of time/tune/whatever it's our job to tell them so's they can improve..saying you do not like the song is irrelevant to the critique...cause it doesn't matter if you like it or not..we are here to help each other improve..
some idiot recently reviewed a song of mine thus...I quote...I didn't like it!!...big deal, I don't care ::)
the guy just proved he's not capable of constructive criticism...waste of space...
there are songs that could be perfect in every way...but we just don't like them..it's not our thing :) (like anything from Bieber)
what would be the point in saying..well mate, didn't like your song!!!..
just review honestly and politely, if the poster of the song takes offence, they're stupid and don't want to improve...
I am happy to accept a strong review because it releases me to give a strong review back...
I think the only person that could give a strong review would be a person who's songwriting and production is beyond critique, and no such person exists on this forum...
in other words...peeps who live in glass houses should not throw stones...
saying one thing and rating it badly in an anonymous points system is two faced cowardice...
best, Kevin
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Speaking personally,it's a non issue.
I listen to a song > If I like it I say so > If I like it,but there are issues I think may improve the track,I say so >if I really don't like it,nor can think of how anything may help,I don't post.
I understand the Count's concern where a settled community can be a carefully guarded clique,but I don't believe we are at that point just yet. Still,it's good to be aware. Most folk are here to advance their skills in a friendly,constructive atmosphere and that's a thing I'd be very keen to underline.
Just my 2p
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I assumed the title of my post would indicate that although I was serious about the issue I had my tongue in my cheek and have no intention of really 'launching' into anyone or giving them a 'big fat zero'. (makes cowardly retraction to avoid being branded a coward)
@Boydie (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=18510) feedback form would go a long way to helping the issue and give reviewers specific 'safe' areas. (crawls to admin)
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Lol - no worries @Viscount Cramer & His Orchestra
I do know what you meant
Due to the subjective nature of songwriting I am against a formal scoring system (although I appreciate the benefits I feel it has more potential to cause harm)
I am also against a general points/karma system for similar reasons - and I feel points systems can get very political
I do agree that more info should be given by the OP so will try to implement some better "guidance" on making posts and giving critiques
This will take time to implement but is now "on the list" ;D
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Hi,
I was brought up to always tell the truth. So that is what i do.
I've not been on this forum long cos i am a newbie and i know that my honesty has already upset one person sadly. :(
But alas i will continue to tell the truth cos it matters.
Johnny :)
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@Johnnyuk (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=21771) I think there's nothing wrong with that, though the way we do it is important - I think we should give feedback in a way that we'd be fine with receiving, and also present it as a personal opinion - our "honesty" is still our opinion and there isn't really such thing in this game as "the truth"... (IMHO!)
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Hello. Been away for a bit (new job), plus the muse has completely shipped out recently. Hope you're all good.
Personally I love the idea of an anonymous 'score' - not to replace, but to sit alongside, the comments. Otherwise it's really hard to judge objectively amongst all the politeness if your song is really better than the last one you posted. I'd find it really motivational if I got a 6 then a 7 then an 8 etc. I wouldn't want it to compete with other posters, but to compete with myself if you know what I mean.
Reverbnation offer a "Crowd Review" option, which allows you to get anonomous, but detailed, reviews of a song. You get a 4 page report, including an overall score. If you score above a certain level, they feature you on their home page for a while. It costs about $12 per song. I have used it in the past, but found that, because you can't target specific deomgraphics, the results are not great. ( Incidentally, my song "Notice Me (Gothic), which won the December Song of the Month here, was one of my lowest rated Crowd Reviews!!!!!!!)
Cheers, Kevin
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Hi All, its been a while since this subject came up! I suspect if I went back I could post the same answer I gave last time!
My take is, the vast majority of us are amateurs (some more gifted than others) and we do this for fun and enjoyment. When you start out you are full of positivity towards your new found fledgling career as a World famous songwriter and producer. Only to realise when you come into contact with experienced people on the forum that you have a lot to learn. If you were to be 'battered' in a review at this stage it would have a really bad impact on your progression/development. So I try to find the positives in the song and if I have sufficient knowledge to comments on something that is wrong, I will do that too. You have to be honest but should be able to read what stage of development a songwriter is at and temper your criticism. The same goes for their playing and singing. I think most people on this forum do try to be constructive and focus on the positives, and occasionally you'll get some idiot who'll crash in and cause consternation, but they tend to be short lived. I've learned a lot from being on this forum. When I listen to my early songs I can see the development and that is largely due to little improvements all along the way. An invaluable resource in my mind!
Mt threepence worth!
Cheers
Jamie
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Hi All, its been a while since this subject came up! I suspect if I went back I could post the same answer I gave last time!
My take is, the vast majority of us are amateurs (some more gifted than others) and we do this for fun and enjoyment. When you start out you are full of positivity towards your new found fledgling career as a World famous songwriter and producer. Only to realise when you come into contact with experienced people on the forum that you have a lot to learn. If you were to be 'battered' in a review at this stage it would have a really bad impact on your progression/development. So I try to find the positives in the song and if I have sufficient knowledge to comments on something that is wrong, I will do that too. You have to be honest but should be able to read what stage of development a songwriter is at and temper your criticism. The same goes for their playing and singing. I think most people on this forum do try to be constructive and focus on the positives, and occasionally you'll get some idiot who'll crash in and cause consternation, but they tend to be short lived. I've learned a lot from being on this forum. When I listen to my early songs I can see the development and that is largely due to little improvements all along the way. An invaluable resource in my mind!
Mt threepence worth!
Cheers
Jamie
Hear hear to all that - perfect common sense!