The Songwriter Forum - songwriting reviews, tips and chat
Songwriter Forum => The Bar => Topic started by: Boydie on February 06, 2018, 03:16:07 PM
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Hi All
In preparation for the website upgrade and refresh of the rules I wanted to get some opinions on whether we should extend the "only post 1 song every 2 weeks" to the lyrics board
This would have the advantage of making the rules very simple - ie you can only post one song every two weeks in the FINISHED SONGS, WORK IN PROGRESS, and LYRICS boards
The rule applies to each board independently so you can still post a song in each forum
I think this would help with the consistency and application of the rule - as well as slow things down to encourage members to review others whilst they wait to post their next song
I am keen to get a general consensus, especially from those that frequent and contribute to the LYRICS forum more than I do
Thanks
Boydie
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I’d say yes. To me, it makes sense to keep things consistent across the forum.
I’m not sure how valuable my opinion is though, since I’m not likely to contribute much to the board. That’s just because I rarely begin the writing process with lyrics.
Something else you mention caught my eye though... Website upgrade? Is there a thread where I can find out more?
Cheers
Matt
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Something else you mention caught my eye though... Website upgrade? Is there a thread where I can find out more?
There sure is:
http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=14574.0
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It may not be necessary in the lyrics section..does it get congested like the finished songs section?
I don't know, I don't go there but if it's jogging along fine without issues why fix it if it aint broken :) :)...
I didn't vote because I don't know enough about the lyrics section to make a decision..
best, Kevin :)
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Boydie
I'm with Kevin, its never really been an issue as far as I can see as there are less users on that thread. We'd want to get enough traffic to make it vibrant and a responsive thread. Clearly on Finished songs there are lots of new posts so it needs to be managed so everyone one gets a fair shot.
:)
neil
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I'm not pushed either way but one thing that might be worth taking into account is that a lyric is likely to take less time to write and post that a WIP or finished song. I guess on that basis there might be a case for having a time limit but making it shorter, so for example one week instead of two. Of course the drawback here is that it discards uniformity across the threads and it doesn't tackle congestion as effectively, although if the issue isn't as pressing at present the relevance of the last point might be lessened.
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I'm not pushed either way but one thing that might be worth taking into account is that a lyric is likely to take less time to write and post that a WIP or finished song. I guess on that basis there might be a case for having a time limit but making it shorter, so for example one week instead of two. Of course the drawback here is that it discards uniformity across the threads and it doesn't tackle congestion as effectively, although if the issue isn't as pressing at present the relevance of the last point might be lessened.
I would agree with this, 2 weeks feels too long. From my frequent to the area there's only a handful of core users who really indulge and get along with each other very well - would be a shame to penalise those who already maintain a friendly and constructive environment.
I think the issue comes with newbies who haven't quite integrated or grasped the etiquette yet - but so far that feels infrequent enough in Lyrics that a friendly 'calm down' would be more beneficial.
If the new version of the forum starts attracting masses of new members then a formal rule could benefit - but doing so pre-emptive may be damaging.
All the best,
Scott
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I read the lyric section,but rarely post,so my observations will be less valid than those who regularly contribute.
As Sing4me88 says,the chances are,a lyric will take less time than the rest of the song,so on the surface a week is a fair rule of thumb. This is not to denigrate in any way the fine lyricists we have on the forum. I know sometimes words can be agonised over for much longer periods.
Another point worth considering is,a lot of musicians find it easy to compose,but finding meaningful lyrics takes longer and can be more troublesome. To my mind it's a bad thing to discourage any member who may be lyrically 'on a flow' and force them to fit into a set template all of the time. What I'm saying is,rather than a strict rule,a quiet word with someone may work better for the forum.
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Personally I don't think it's necessary in the lyrics section. It would stifle development and I think we've rarely had issues with it so I would say, leave it as it is
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I only raised it as there was a recent discussion about certain members (mainly newbies) posting lots of lyrics in the lyrics section - and some were very criticising of the forum/mods for letting it happen
I am therefore looking for the consensus of opinion - we either have no restriction on the lyrics board or a limit
It is unfair to criticise new members (or mods) if the guidelines are not being broken
I am happy either way but wanted to get a feel for whether it is an issue or not for people
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I only raised it as there was a recent discussion about certain members (mainly newbies) posting lots of lyrics in the lyrics section - and some were very criticising of the forum/mods for letting it happen
I am therefore looking for the consensus of opinion - we either have no restriction on the lyrics board or a limit
It is unfair to criticise new members (or mods) if the guidelines are not being broken
I am happy either way but wanted to get a feel for whether it is an issue or not for people
Ay you can't please everyone, but asking our collective opinion certainly goes a long way :)
Maybe a more formal, informal way to to raise grievances would be a reaonable approach. Mods have always been quick to reply and action quitely whenever I have raised concerns, yet the 'go to' is often creating a thread where escalation spirals.
Clearer guidlines for instances where rules aren't broken but people are concerned maybe? Though I fear going off-topic. xD
Cheers,
Scott.
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IMHO a limit would be a good idea for consistency across the boards, and it does seem to have caused tension on that board at least twice in my 10 months here,
Don’t reckon you’re goona get that concensus Boydie!
Looking forward to the new site, whatever the rules are.
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I think that a one week rule is fair , I love posting on here especially when someone can make use of my lyrics , I've calmed down a bit now I think after my initial excitement - but after 2 weeks I'm chomping at the bit to share my lyrics
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I vote to implement the 2 week rule. Make the rules consistent between finished songs, Works in progress and lyrics.
Paul
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I would have thought a week for lyrics would be fine. It's an instant appraisal rather than having to click and listen so more likely to be done there and then whereas the song threads may be looked at then put aside temporarily (or permanently) for lack of time, so a slower moving page is more important there.
I don't see why it has to be the same across the board.
Since nobody reads the guidelines why don't you just say in the forum sub-headings 'One post per whatever' instead of PLEASE READ THE GUIDELINES .....or even say both....
And finally, which is not quite what you were asking, I think Finished Songs should be one per month...it moves too fast and too many are posting BANG like clockwork on the fortnight. It does my head in.
You could have a second Finished Songs bit called 'Finished Songs Express' for those who want to post more where you can post as much as you like and then pick and choose which one you want to post to 'Finished Songs Normal'
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At quick look gives me the impression that there's a lot more threads starting in Lyrics than Wip but the general activity is lower. A posted lyrics only gets about 4-8 replies.
A 2 week rule is effective against overflow but I think it will inhibit the creativity of that section largely. With no so many commenting a quicker rotation is needed.
If a rule I'd land somewhere around 4-7 days. Otherwise keep nothing as a rule.
Martin
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I'm conflicted. On one hand consistently applying the same rule across the boards makes things simple.
On the other hand;
- The community here is relatively modest in size
- I posted lyrics on the Lyrics board on January 23 (two weeks ago today) and that thread is still only half way down the first page of the board.
- For many the allure of a songwriter forum is sharing lyrics and getting feedback, having to wait two weeks between posts is a little draconian when a person can conceivably have two or more flashes of inspiration in a two week period for a few verses for different songs.
- There are alternatives, like a notice to please be considerate of other users and while there is no limit on the number of threads that can be made it would be appreciated if those made by the same user could be spread out where possible to allow all users to receive feedback.
- Most threads get five or less comments on them in the Lyrics board, is it really proportionate to make a person wait two weeks before they get three general comments from the community?
In my opinion the rule would only exist for uniformity and serves no real purpose. Why have it?
Well, it prevents huge numbers of threads but as mentioned it's relatively dormant and the community is relatively small so that probably won't happen anyway (currently there's no limit and it's not an issue).
Secondly, it prevents one user from clogging up the board and soaking all of the attention. Again, with the community being small it's not really like someone is stepping on people's toes if they make a few threads. I think it better to trust in community courtesy and let the odd thing slide than to impose restrictions on everyone for a problem that doesn't exist in the Lyrics board.
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Why would you want less posts and activity on a forum?
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I would rather it wasn't applied to the lyrics section. Mainly for selfish reasons - I tend to write lyrics in spurts. ;D ;D Maybe a max of one per day would keep the spammers out?
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Paulski has exposed the issue here....'I tend to write lyrics in spurts'
OK you've written it down, but do you need instant attention. That's why there are certain controls in our society. Restrain yourself or you will be restrained by other means.
Gratuitous posting leads to irritation for some (as we've seen) and less meaningful commenting and interaction I think.
I see people post in the Finished Songs section, get hardly any reviews but don't much care because they're already typing out the lyrics for their next post.
And people feel an obligation to comment - this is the whole idea after all - so you end up with loads of inane comments like 'Cor a real rocker...this is great!' and then on to the next one etc etc
Floods of new stuff and floods of obligatory cheap reviews render the whole thing meaningless in my view......but I suspect I might be in the minority here so I'll just sit back and let you all get on with it!
Just couldn't restrain myself from giving my viewpoint!
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And finally, which is not quite what you were asking, I think Finished Songs should be one per month...it moves too fast and too many are posting BANG like clockwork on the fortnight. It does my head in.
why should the rules be changed just because some peeps are more prolific than others?
and why the heck does it do your head in?
one song per month would suite you but it would kill the feedback on finished songs area...
weeks would go by with nothing happening...but that's what you want innit!!!
the forum is different things to different peeps..enjoy it your way and let others enjoy it their way please.. :)
best, Kevin :)
I couldn't restrain myself from giving my veiwpoint!!
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Paul..it's your forum ..apply whatever rules you think you need...best way I reckon, if peeps don't like it they can find a better forum...which is impossible I reckon ;D
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Paulski has exposed the issue here....'I tend to write lyrics in spurts'
OK you've written it down, but do you need instant attention. That's why there are certain controls in our society. Restrain yourself or you will be restrained by other means.
Gratuitous posting leads to irritation for some (as we've seen) and less meaningful commenting and interaction I think.
I see people post in the Finished Songs section, get hardly any reviews but don't much care because they're already typing out the lyrics for their next post.
And people feel an obligation to comment - this is the whole idea after all - so you end up with loads of inane comments like 'Cor a real rocker...this is great!' and then on to the next one etc etc
Floods of new stuff and floods of obligatory cheap reviews render the whole thing meaningless in my view......but I suspect I might be in the minority here so I'll just sit back and let you all get on with it!
Just couldn't restrain myself from giving my viewpoint!
I'm sure it's not your intention to insult other members but your doing a pretty good job of it my friend... :) :)
if someone reviewed one of your songs and said..cor, what a great song...I'm sure you'd be very happy..
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Thanks guys, this is all really useful and there are some interesting points coming out
Just to help consolidate the discussion... here are some of the pertinent points:
I will NOT introduce a new rule just for the sake of consistency and/or to fix a problem that is not there - hence asking for opinion
The reason for raising this is that some members "get the hump" when a member (often new member) floods the lyrics board with lots of posts - and recently the mods got unfair criticism for not enforcing "common sense"
It does worry me when we leave things to "common sense" and "courtesy" because I feel it provides an unnecessary grey area where new members are excited and post lots of lyrics, get pounced on or criticised by others - but they have not broken any rules or guidelines
So we either place a clear guideline to ensure everyone knows the rules (and that can be 1 day, 5 days, 1 week, 2 weeks etc.)
OR
We acknowledge that there is no limit but we can then not get grumpy when people "spam" the lyrics thread with posts - if you think that spamming the lyrics board with lots of posts at once then you are agreeing that there needs to be a limit!
What I am trying to explore is what should this limit be
I think we would all agree that if a new member joined and posted 10 lyrics threads in one day it would be an issue? (Would we all agree on this?) - so using this scenario what would be a sensible limit?
1 post a day?, 1 post every 2 days, every week?...
The reason for the suggestion of a limit is to slow the boards down - e.g. In the other sections that are busier a song could slide off the front page in no time and not get the attention it deserves
It looks like this is not an issue for the lyrics thread so we may not need a limit at all - but I do think we need a guideline for perceived "spammers" (which is actually a limit)
I know it is my call but I really do want to get a good range of opinions, especially from those that use the lyrics board the most, as I know I won't please all of the people all of the time - but it is nice to know if there is a consensus- and the votes are currently 6 each so there doesn't appear to be at the moment!!!
If people would prefer to comment in private please feel free to drop me a PM as I would like this sorted for the launch of the new forum at the weekend (and whatever is or isn't put in place doesn't mean it can't be changed if it is not working)
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Boydie, I'd go with one a week on lyrics so we all know the norm.
Probably the best thing is the how the forum works guidelines for new joiners
Being really clear to access and easy to digest the rules without dampening enthusiasm.
Good luck
Neil
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Boydie, I'll second Neil's suggestion if that helps
I voted no but not because I don't think there shouldn't be a limit....bit of a drawback in the voting choices there...I think one week would be right for the lyrics section just as you say as a guide to try to stop mass postings....a bit of leeway will be given or not according to the judgements of those who use the forum most I suppose.
Don't really want to get into any lengthy sparring here but I don't think I've insulted anyone, have I?
I simply think that, as songwriters, we ought to have more to say about what is great about a song rather than just saying it's great and that the number of songs posted leads to people not having the time to really properly comment on what it is that they appreciate about the song or the craftsmanship behind the song so it becomes a place where we just post songs to get listens and it doesn't really matter then what anybody says so we might just as well have no commenting at all.
This is a viewpoint that, in my mind bears thinking about, and is to me something that should be considered and debated.....perhaps not right here right now though.
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I don't think any offence was caused or intended
It was more the discussion than the vote, which was originally posted following the recent lengthy discussion
It is looking like 1 week may be the "sweet spot" for the lyrics forum
Would love to hear from anyone else with a view
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I was a one of those who got on my high horse but
went about it totally the wrong way.I certainly wasn't
having a go at the mods even if it sounded that way.
One set of lyrics a week gets my vote,
Tom.
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Paulski has exposed the issue here....'I tend to write lyrics in spurts'
OK you've written it down, but do you need instant attention. That's why there are certain controls in our society. Restrain yourself or you will be restrained by other means.
You wound me VC! I don't need or want "instant attention" or maybe I do IDK ;D ;D
I can live with one a week but might have to suck my thumb between posts (for comfort ;D ;D)
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I'm not sure about the 2 weeks or any time limit. But could a guideline like the following be helpful (and actually have a similar effect)? "You should ideally post lyrics when they are in a good enough shape to get the most out of the feedback. Usually the best results happen when you've taken them as far as you can, and can pinpoint specific questions or areas of doubt, rather than posting immediately in a very raw form."
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I'll add my opinion to the discussion, although I may not have much of anything new to say.
I voted at least a day or two ago, so I can't remember for sure, but I think I voted "yes"; however, I'm happy either way. The one stand out time I noticed a problem was when we had a member who posted lyrics every day, more or less, for a period of time but never once responded to any comments about them nor did s/he ever post anything whatsoever besides lyrics. No explanations of what s/he was looking for in terms of feedback; no feedback for anyone else; no other posts or comments at all. Limiting posts would have slowed that person down (maybe) but wouldn't have solved the actual problem.
My point, I guess, is the problem is sometimes more of an attitude or approach to posting rather than the frequency of posting, so it won't be fully solved by setting a specific limit.
Vicki
PS: Totally off-topic, but I hope the upgrade won't cause us to lose the ability to choose our fonts when posting....
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I think the poll was posed as a loaded question.
This would have the advantage of making the rules very simple - ie you can only post one song every two weeks in the FINISHED SONGS, WORK IN PROGRESS, and LYRICS boards
I think this would help with the consistency and application of the rule - as well as slow things down to encourage members to review others whilst they wait to post their next song
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Not a "loaded" question at all
It is an option being presented for discussion, which I think it is safe to say has occurred and I think it has been very useful to highlight the issues
This is a privately owned forum so (as SHADOWFAX has said) I can apply whatever rules I want so I do not need to rely on loaded questions or subversion if that is what you are implying
I am simply looking for as many views and opinions on which I can base my decision
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I didn't mean you specifically Paul just that you used words that highlighted the issue.
Vicki I have noticed your font was different but hadn't really thought about it....didn't know we could have what we wanted
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I've just voted. I like the lyrics section, its very friendly and I've received some great advice. I don't recall any problem with a poster submitting too many lyrics. I'd prefer the status quoas I'm sure the regular posters are capable of nudging an over enthusiastic contributor in the right direction.
Keith
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Torally agree Keith. Everything has been working fine for years then one discretion. No effing problems. No changes required 3
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I don't think it is needed tbh but I completely get the wish for consistency to help make the rules clearer.
In all honesty I have never found the rules to be that unclear. They're right there and were the first posts I read after joining. Some may miss them and a general nudge will do. Some read them, understand them and do what they like anyhow.
Thanks
Darren
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I started on this forum with the username Dogmax and one of the most enjoyable few years i had here was in the lyric section, met up and collab with some of the greatest lyric writers in the our songwriters world (even the young) and now as Oldbutyet im still enjoying the lyric section, although its not the same.
Anyway many thanks Tone and Boydie 8)
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I am feeling that the consensus is that a specific new "rule" is not required
I will try to reword the guidelines to reflect that although there is no posting rule for the lyrics forum members need to aware that they should not "spam" the forum
How about skinning this cat a different way and go for what we would really deem unacceptable:
"No more than 3 lyrics can be posted in a single week"
I think anyone posting more than this would be considered as taking advantage of others and would not get many reviews anyway
This seems a sensible limit and would avoid new members arriving that want to post their entire back catalogue of lyrics in one sitting
What d'yall think of this approach?
It is a clear guideline that we can give new members (to avoid ambiguity and them getting grief when they have not broken any rules), it gives the mods/members something tangible to enforce and it should not disrupt the current flow of the lyrics forum
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Hi I think that that is more than fair xxx
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Yep - I doubt I'll ever "spurt" more than 3 a week (at my age ;D)
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Works for me.
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I like it - clear and wouldn't affect many of us.
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I agree with that makes sense.
Royston
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Agree :) Phew !
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An admirable solution. Can't see anybody having a problem with that.
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Great stuff!
Thanks everyone - I will incorporate that into the guidelines refresh after the new forum is launched :o
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Perfect!
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Yep - I doubt I'll ever "spurt" more than 3 a week (at my age ;D)
Mrs.Paulski says you meant 3 spurts per month,actually. :P
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Yep - I doubt I'll ever "spurt" more than 3 a week (at my age ;D)
Mrs.Paulski says you meant 3 spurts per month,actually. :P
I was talking about lyrics - don't know what you're on about.. ;D ;D
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Yep,lyrics. That's what she meant,'m sure. :D
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Yes, I think it would be a good idea. Like songs it would make the lyricist think about which ones to post, and give the reader a slower feed to ponder over, as a songwriter, I find the flow of lyric submissions too fast to digest.
cpm