The Songwriter Forum - songwriting reviews, tips and chat
Songwriter Forum => The Writing Process => Topic started by: alexstephenssmith on March 07, 2017, 11:20:00 PM
-
Hi guys,
I am really stuck and I have been for the last 5 years.
I've been playing the guitar since I was 16 (I am now 23) and I've been using Logic Pro since I was 18.
I am going to be honest, I've never finish a song. In fact I've never really got past 16 bars. I don't know if I over think things and expect to write something amazing but I'm finding it very difficult to even start writing now because I know I will not finish it.
One day I'll be influenced by someone the next day I'm listening to something completely different. People used to say to me 'oh Alex it will come eventually' but if anything my writing skills have dwindled. It's actually made me stressed and why should writing music stress me out? It should be something I love to do, and I do! But I'm so confused how to even start writing a song in Logic especially even though I have good knowledge of musical theory.
I sometimes feel as though maybe I am just incapable of writing anything but I can't let go and I want to write something I will be proud of and think: I really put everything into that bit music instead of scratching the surface and giving up within half an hour.
I suppose the things I struggle with is the space in my songs, I always want to write synthy, industrial psychedelic music, when I listen to artists songs I like, they sound so full with so much going on but all compliment each other and they never sound muddy. I would like advice on how to achieve this. Even if I have to go back to basics would someone be kind enough to give me a little explanation.
Am I better off writing a song on my guitar than to start with my digital audio station (Logic).
Writing music in Logic feels so different from playing with your band or friends. It doesn't seem as easy to feel the music (for me anyway).
Look, I would be elated if someone could reply and give me a little kick up the backside to get me going.
Thanks,
Alexander :)
-
Logic can be a great writing tool but I'd suggest you first focus on completing a song on your first instrument. I first learned to write on my acoustic guitar, over 35 years ago. I wrote so many in the first ten years. I rehearsed them over and over and experienced great excitement from doing so. I'm still fond of many of the early songs that I wrote. When I eventually started to write using Logic, it was easy to jump from guitar to piano - It became instinctive to write and piece the parts together without over analysing musical theory. Theory can really help but if you learn to write and trust your instincts, they will steer a song home. I think advice about writing songs is going to be difficult to acquire. You simply have to learn to write and trust in your own ability. You can analyse song structures and techniques that you might like to implement in your writing but I believe that songwriting comes from deep within. Connect with your feelings and your intellect to say something that is unique about yourself, your passion, interests, dislikes. Be confident that you truly have something of value to say in your own unique way. Expect to write a beautiful/wonderful song - I believe that you are half way there with that's belief. When you've nailed the writing part on your first instrument and have put in the hours, everything will fall into place. it takes time and dedication. If you have the desire to write and the work ethic (even though it is fun), you will achieve whatever you set out to. I hope you achieve your songwriting goals.
Best
Paul
-
Hi,
Good to have you in the forum
Okay, here's your checklist:
1 - what wicked deeds said - start with what you know
2 - dig around the writing and recording sections on this forum - there's tons of useful advice
3 - start reviewing other people's songs on here and looking at the comments from other people.
4 - post some of your own music up for people to review - if it's unfinished post it in the unfinished section - if there's something specific you want feedback on, ask.
5 - complete number 3 before number 4.
6 - get on YouTube and look up some tutorials on logic if that's what you want to persevere with - you may find GarageBand a bit more accessible if your struggling with logic.
7- Once you've got to grips with your Daw , if you want to write in a particular genre, try recreating the music you want to emulate in the daw. This will give you a good insight into how it's constructed.
8 - Finish a god darn piece of music - you wanted a kick up the backside! Doesn't matter how long it is, just make it complete. If you've got 16 bars, write a second 16 bars then stick the first 16 bars on the end again - job done, you've written a piece of music in ternary form.
9 - Repeat 8,3,4
10 - Sell out, write the next gangnam style , make lots of money and then come back and tell us all how it's done.
Hope to see more posts from you.
Yodasdad
-
Sound advice from a couple of guys who really do know what they're talking about. I'm still new to writing songs; started writing lyrics for a mate a number of years ago, but I'm now trying to write and record whole songs. If you're ringing it stressful, then you're starting from the wrong place.
Yosadad's right that you should just get one song under your belt so that you can leave that baggage behind. What I've done is start very simple; a short song with 2 chords, which is largely looped and uses Garagebands drum facility. Get a basic track down and then just embellish it a bit, cutting and pasting as necessary.
Producing songs like some you hear from members takes a lot of talent and skill, but you will be able to produce very good, simple, songs very quickly. You can then progress from there. If you want the nucleus of a new song to adapt and play around with, send me a private message. If you're still not confident, have a go at co-writing with someone more experienced.
Mike
-
Hey ALEXANDER
Welcome to the forum and I am pleased to tell you that you have found EXACTLY the right place to get your songwriting back on track and learn about recording/production - and ultimately get your mojo back
I would distill your issues down to just 2
1 - the songwriting element, and not currently being able to "complete" a song
2 - the "production" element where you can't currently get your songs sounding like the ones on the radio or commercial releases by other artists
We can definitely help you with these, giving you support, guidance, and a kick up the backside when you need it as well
Even though I would personally LOVE to jump straight to the second point as I have some really easy "tips & tricks" for you to try, which will transform your mixes - I think we should actually start with point 1 (safe in the knowledge that we will cover point 2 later and get you producing some "radio ready" mixes from LOGIC)
My suggestion would be to pick your favourite song (or the song you would most like to write like) and actually load it in to LOGIC on a track - calling it "Ghost Track" - I like to load all of my tracks so that they start at bar 2 so it gives you room for a count in or an intro
Find the tempo of the song (either extracting it using LOGIC or a plugin, look it up on t'internet or even use a website where you can just tap a key in time with the music and it will show you the BPM of the track - Google is your friend here)
Set logic to this BPM and then mark out all of the sections of your "ghost" track - i.e. Intro, Verse 1, pre-chorus, chorus, instrumental break, big rise, big drop, quiet verse, big chorus etc.
This will then give you a structure in your daw and you can listen to what happens in your reference (ghost) track and when
I would then focus on re-writing one of your songs to fit this structure
You may be surprised at the amount of repetition (which is a good thing in most cases as it makes the song sound "familiar" very quickly)
In its crudest from you probably only need to write 2 verses, 1 pre-chorus, 1 chorus and possibly 1 bridge (which is often just a verse that is very "sparse" before a big chorus at the end) - but your ghost track will tell you the structure
You can then put your own "beats", chords, melodies and lyrics to your new song - but follow the general structure, arrangement, instrumentation and dynamics of your ghost track - another surprise is how "sparse" commercial mixes are - a few well chosen instruments will often sound clearer and "bigger" than loads of synths piled on top of each other (creating loads of "mud") - when the song is written I can give you some ways of achieving this but I would recommend on concentrating on the song first
Another thing that often surprises me is how many commercial songs have no (or very little) drums for big sections
When you have the basics of your song down, and some notes about what you will do with the production/mix - i.e. Where the "big" sections are and where the more broken down sections are - you can mute and forget about the "ghost" track and continue tinkering with your song as you will have a strong framework in place
-
Just to add..
The 'finish a god darn piece of music' is an important one!
You don't need to finish a good piece of music, you just need to finish it. The first thing that most people write is usually not very good anyway, especially compared to their later efforts.
The fact that you haven't finished anything yet is probably causing you a blockage. Mental blockage, creativity blockage, chi blockage, hell, even a lower colon blockage maybe? :D But it will be holding you back.
Don't strive for perfection on your first go, get something finished and move on. Then you can say you've achieved it, release your blockage and focus on trying something better on your next go.
If you struggle next time you go to the toilet, now you know why.
oooh, I feel all spiritual now.
Yodasdad
-
the only advise i can give is, get away from the computer, focus on your guitar, your voice and a pen and pad, and just do it.
when i started writing songs in about 1984, it never occurred to me that it was hard. i just did it. the songs were trash but that was fine because i was writing with my band mates and we were playing them out at clubs, house parties, etc, at a high volume and to intoxicated youths.
most of those old songs are long forgotten except for maybe an obscure tape recording that is hiding somewhere that no one will ever give another listen.
i have written a couple hundred songs i suppose, and many more song ideas that never were completed. the best ones are the most recent ones, so i keep moving forward.
-
You have to finish a song..even if you think it's crap..which all mine were when I started (still are now but that's another story)..
learn from the last piece of rubbish you wrote and write a better piece of rubbish..and so on, in the end you'll have some good songs,
that's how I started...now I'm writing good quality rubbish ;D ;D ;D
keep on keepin on my friend :) :)
-
I agree with the sentiments expressed above. I've finished the vast majority of songs I've written,I just think the quality of your songs will improve and you'll enjoy it more. If you don't finish them you'll have no measure of whether you are improving or not ???. Keep writing it's the only way you'll improve!
Cheers
Jamie
-
The advice in this thread is solid. I'm just going to add one thing. It sounds like you've spent a lot of time not finishing songs. Another way of saying that is you've got a lot of practice at not finishing songs. So here's a way to take the pressure off. Go back to a song-in-progress you think isn't that great. Definitely not one of your best. Finish it. Finish it even though you think it's not up to much. It will be a valuable experience on its own, and allow you to circumvent your clearly perfectionist tendencies.
We all write naff songs. Even the greats wrote naff songs - they just had the good sense (usually) to keep them from the public. Put in the practice with material you don't care much about, break the habit, and you'll be ready to finish something more worthwhile in the near future.
I think getting away from the computer is good advice too. Just sit with your guitar/ keyboard and write the song. Worry about production afterwards. Good luck. And remember, music is fun! :)
-
Hmm...this is a tough one to answer.
I once was exactly where you are, didn't finish any songs, didn't get anywhere with my recordings, nada. What I did do though, was continuing writing a lot of song ideas, bits and pieces of unfinished material which made me foolishly think that I made progress "I'm still writing all these great song ideas.", so that must make me a songwriter I lied to myself.
My rude awakening came when I read 1) An essay by Oscar Hammerstein II called "Notes on lyrics", 2) The book "Songwriters on Songwriting" by Paul Zollo, 3) A poem called "So you wan't to be a writer?" by Charles Bukowski. I stumbled upon all of these at a time in my life when I was in a creative and productive kind of limbo much like yourself.
The consensus is about the same in all of them. It's harsh but it's fact.
If you don't finish songs, they're not songs and you're no songwriter.
This was very hard for me to take in. My whole life was surrounded by the fact that my little bits and pieces was songs, therefore making me a songwriter. But I was wrong and I stopped completely calling myself a songwriter after that.
One song.
That was my new goal. If I can finish one song only, good or bad, I will be a songwriter. A real songwriter.
Since then I've written hundreds. Not all of them good unfortunately, but to tell you the truth, I don't expect them to be. Today I see my songs like they stand in a line waiting for their turn. I can not pick the order, I can only write them one at the time. It might be that the next 10 songs in the line will be bad ones, but I've learned over the years, the good ones will come, they always do.
Hope this helps and turn out to be a kick in the backside!!! ;D
All the best,
Peter
-
I totally understand where you are coming from here and there is lots of great advice already.
They do say you have to write 99 rubbish songs to get a good one, to some degree this remains true no matter how long you have been at it.
The key is the try to finish everything and move on, if you don't like it, don't worry you can do another, then another.
The process of working through this, completing the "not so good" songs is what gives you the tools to make the good ones.
Never get precious about a particular song, finish it or drop it but you have to move on to the next.
I say this from experience. Always believe the next thing is going to be your best one.
One thing I do which is available in London but not sure about elsewhere is do informal collaboration sessions where you get together with strangers and write against the clock. Usually 90mins. That is to get to know everyone and complete a song ready to perform.
The deadline really focuses you and makes you decisive enough to finish things.
Many other schemes such as a "a song a day" (what is sounds like, a new song written every day) exist to serve the same purpose.
Boydie is spot on that you need to worry about the writing before the production.
Hope you hear something from you on the forum soon!
Tom.
-
Paul McCartney,one half of my generation's iconic songwriters. He also wrote 'The Frog's Chorus'.
This gives hope to us all. I wish tae feck I'd had Logic when I was 18,I had to make do with bouncing tracks from one cassette player to another, (hoping no one opened my bedroom door) using mics and suffering the incremental loss of quality every time. Not that the quality was ever there on a C90!
You have it made Alex,you have all the tools,now take a step back,run and hit yerself a righteous boot up the arse and get stuff done.
*Skub wanders off muttering about 'my day' and other boring schitt.
-
Agree with others worry first about completing a song - any song, doesn't have to be good before worrying about production. Put down the laptop, pick up the guitar.
Start with a really basic stock chord progression - something like a twelve bar blues or the Vi V iV III progression used in Feeling Good. These are good starting points because the melodies basically write themselves.
Next come up with some lyrics - they don't have to make much sense, and they can be repetitive as well.
If all else fails, slap yourself in the face
Good luck
-
Here's a killer tips for any songwriter. Sorry if everyone knows this but I am guessing that they don't.
1) Use a the major and minor of the same chord, can be the 4th above the root but that doesn't really count.
So, in the key of C, use an A major and an A minor, or D major and D minor or E major and E minor. or 2 or all three.
Even better if you can use C major and C minor as well.
Better if the major chord comes after the minor, does not need to be the next chord but later in the song.
A very large percentage of some of the most succesful pop songs ever written have this trick in them somewhere.
-
Here's a killer tips for any songwriter. Sorry if everyone knows this but I am guessing that they don't.
1) Use a the major and minor of the same chord, can be the 4th above the root but that doesn't really count.
So, in the key of C, use an A major and an A minor, or D major and D minor or E major and E minor. or 2 or all three.
Even better if you can use C major and C minor as well.
Better if the major chord comes after the minor, does not need to be the next chord but later in the song.
A very large percentage of some of the most succesful pop songs ever written have this trick in them somewhere.
My favourite example of this is Fire and Rain by James Taylor. The verse begins A, Em, D, A and then goes to A, E, G+7 - beautiful!
-
Hi guys,
I am really stuck and I have been for the last 5 years.
I've been playing the guitar since I was 16 (I am now 23) and I've been using Logic Pro since I was 18.
I am going to be honest, I've never finish a song. In fact I've never really got past 16 bars. I don't know if I over think things and expect to write something amazing but I'm finding it very difficult to even start writing now because I know I will not finish it.
One day I'll be influenced by someone the next day I'm listening to something completely different. People used to say to me 'oh Alex it will come eventually' but if anything my writing skills have dwindled. It's actually made me stressed and why should writing music stress me out? It should be something I love to do, and I do! But I'm so confused how to even start writing a song in Logic especially even though I have good knowledge of musical theory.
I sometimes feel as though maybe I am just incapable of writing anything but I can't let go and I want to write something I will be proud of and think: I really put everything into that bit music instead of scratching the surface and giving up within half an hour.
I suppose the things I struggle with is the space in my songs, I always want to write synthy, industrial psychedelic music, when I listen to artists songs I like, they sound so full with so much going on but all compliment each other and they never sound muddy. I would like advice on how to achieve this. Even if I have to go back to basics would someone be kind enough to give me a little explanation.
Am I better off writing a song on my guitar than to start with my digital audio station (Logic).
Writing music in Logic feels so different from playing with your band or friends. It doesn't seem as easy to feel the music (for me anyway).
Look, I would be elated if someone could reply and give me a little kick up the backside to get me going.
Thanks,
Alexander :)
First of all replying is a wonderful way of building up confidence in oneself.
Your post reads like you're trying to hard, trying to fit everything in when you should be starting from basics, so advice is forget about writing a song forget about writing lyrics forget about using logic pro or whatever that does, go into that room where you feel the most relax have your guitar and a note book and pen beside you switch everything off even your thoughts and enjoy that moment, then start writing, no song no lyric just start writing, if you cant find something to write about then write about something you remember but remember, no song no lyric just start writing.
Then when that done read it back to yourself as if you're reading yourself a story, because at that moment that's all it is and change whatever needs to be change.
If we can help you anymore just reply 8)
-
Other things you could try...
Play around with endings and beginnings. Again in the key of C find better ways back to C.
eg: Dm7 G C is obvious but what about: Fm G C or Ab G C or Em G C or Ab Bb C
Also find an interesting 1st chord change, Mr McCartney seems to be the only person who uses
C to Gm at the beginning of a song. ( Hey Bulldog & Queenie Eye plus a few Wings ones I think)
* Intros in a different key. (Ab intro - Song in C)
* Verse in a minor key, chorus in major,
* Chord progressions that DONT revert back to the original key. Who says they have to!
* Chords with added notes in the Verse (6ths, minors 7ths etc,) and straight majors and minors in the chorus. (Wannadies - You & Me song uses that)
* Move the bass line but not the chords (Hill Stree Blues theme) / move the chords but not the bass line (Thank you for being a friend)
* Move the bass up one note
* move the melody up a third instead of repeating it.
-
Even though there's still some solid advice in this thread, I suspect we lost OP (Alexander) the very instant he pressed enter and let his very first post go.
I can only hope he read some of the excellent answers and suggestions he recieved.
::)
-
Another good trick is harmonic substitution....
used all over the place in Jazz but also used in Pop music too.
eg 1) Bruno Mars Lazy song. g d c g d c g d c g B7 c The B7 give the tune a lift and makes it more interesting even although the melody would have fitted over another g d c
eg 2) Richard Rodgers - Edelweiss. First Edeilweiss Edelweiss at the start of the song C G7 C F
When exactly the same melody repeats as the end of the song chords are C C7 F Fm
2 different eras but same tricks!
-
Yup. This might be his loss and our gain. There are a few more juicy "golden nuggets" in this thread.
Very interesting reading and some great advice. Cx
-
One day I'll be influenced by someone the next day I'm listening to something completely different.
Am I better off writing a song on my guitar than to start with my digital audio station (Logic).
I can totally understand being influenced by this thing then that thing and losing your way. I think it is important to keep telling yourself that it is OK not to sound like this band and that band that you like. In fact, it is imperative. You will never sound as good as them if you imitate them; you need to feel OK sounding like yourself. Try not listening to anything for a day or more and then writing a song maybe?
Also, I personally think it is very important to write with an instrument (not a computer). I think you've got to start off by writing a complete song, not matter how rubbish you think it sounds. Pick a direction and follow it through to the end. Then write another one and another. Over time, you will find your own sound...
-
You have to finish a song..even if you think it's crap..which all mine were when I started (still are now but that's another story)..
learn from the last piece of rubbish you wrote and write a better piece of rubbish..and so on, in the end you'll have some good songs,
that's how I started...now I'm writing good quality rubbish ;D ;D ;D
keep on keepin on my friend :) :)
What he/she said. THAT was good advice. And your friend who told you "it will come" was wrong. You'll "go get it" or you won't have "it."
And "going to get it" means finishing everything you want to be a song. In the first place, NO ONE is a worse judge of how good your work is than you are. You are nearly always going to be overly harsh on yourself and on your own creations. JUST FINISH THEM.
Years later, you can come back and improve them - but only if you finish them. I've quit writing altogether to go back and fine tune the hundreds of songs I've written. I've got at least four hundred "finished," and another four hundred in the works. None were "good enough to finish" when I made the initial write. Some now (probably) are. There is no point to starting them until you reach a "resolution point" with them. That won't mean they are "good enough" or "are finished." But they are a complete idea that you can then return to.
Good luck with this.
-
I keep saying it...
Songs are written
Good songs are "re-written"
Great songs are re-writes of good songs
The mantra is get a song "done" - this should be seen as the "easy" bit
The hard bit (which many don't think to move on to) is then re-writing and finessing the song to make it good - and then great
To me the "writing" is the inspiration and should express what comes out
The re-writing is where you can decide whether you want to "follow the rules" or break them - but the use of "song craft", and an appreciation of many of the established tools & techniques (song craft), can transform a heart felt song that nobody is interested in - into an engaging song that people "like" and appreciate
-
I keep saying it...
Songs are written
Good songs are "re-written"
Great songs are re-writes of good songs
The mantra is get a song "done" - this should be seen as the "easy" bit
The hard bit (which many don't think to move on to) is then re-writing and finessing the song to make it good - and then great
To me the "writing" is the inspiration and should express what comes out
The re-writing is where you can decide whether you want to "follow the rules" or break them - but the use of "song craft", and an appreciation of many of the established tools & techniques (song craft), can transform a heart felt song that nobody is interested in - into an engaging song that people "like" and appreciate
I couldn't agree more Boydie. The songwriting part - writing the initial song, maybe on guitar or piano, (though you could easily complete that part using your DAW as many do) is most definitely the easiest part.
When I write, I know how to tick all of the boxes that make me happy with my composition. Like many writers, I give myself free reign to create. That's fine if you are a hobby writer but writers with serious aspiratations of securing that's elusive hit record, mostly have to play by a differently set of rules.
Maybe the best approach is to study existing successful songs and to use their structure as a template. I'd go as far as to say perhaps use similar instrumentation and sounds too so that's your composition is current. Using this method may prove difficult if you are not used to disciplining yourself during the writing process but if you want to maximise your chances of success it may well be required. There is however, always the exception where a song doesn't adhere to the aforementioned approach.
The mantra really is very good. when you've finished writing and producing, put your song under the microscope. It's quite possible that your song stands up to your own expectations but it's not written to commercial standards.
It's great to receive feedback from the forum but you've got to be prepared to do some serious study and work if you are writing to achieve commercial success. Whatever your approach, enjoy the experience as success may be elusive throughout your writing career.
Paul
-
But all this still requires hard work.
I believe I develop as a song writer and a performer about at the same
speed. Old songs, though simple and with out a catchy chorus, will sound
better every half year I revisit them (their not recorded just words and chords).
Some might even open my eyes/ears and make me look at them in a new light.
I'm stuck in the view that writing a song means lyrics and noted chord changes.
I'm of course wrong. There are so many components of a song these days like
drum tracks and samples. But I think I got the basics.
What is an improvement of a song? This in some way saddens me. Is there really a goal in it
except making a living(yes a living not money) to make a song appeal to people who
only remembers the chorus? I think not. I think there's more to a song.
Many of the songs I've heard here have no part of me screaming Top 20!
But they are good songs. Good lyrics. Good performances.
I guess exceptional is the word. Just 'Good' doesn't make it these days.
To make an exceptional song you have to sacrifice a lot. Most of all you have to think
in another way. Instead of 'Does this feel right?' you have to think 'Does this work?'.
To me the whole idea is very uninspiring. Why should I do it when someone else can do
it better?
I hope my moody opinion doesn't put you all of songwriting. :)
Martin
-
Like you Martin, a finished song has always been the same to me: vocal melody and harmony (chords); something that I can perform live on acoustic guitar. That's how I've always written songs. The sometimes elaborate/detailed productions that I present and play or programme all instruments for (barring the occasional royalty free loop) in my opinion, have nothing to do with songwriting. I'm old school in that respect. I developed my ability to write songs long before I had the luxury of a powerful digital audio workstation.
By and large, I give myself free reign to write whatever I like, though on occasion, I will deliberately write something that adhere's to a more commercial structure simply for the enjoyment derived from the challenge.
Songwriting is a brilliant hobby and we can all follow the direction that suits us best, whether that be commercial writing or otherwise.
Paul
-
Not sure if anyone else has mentioned this but another thing you could try is:
Just try and write any piece of music in any style. jazz, blues, classical, folk, pop, literally anything. Waltz, 4 time, anything at all.
You might find you can write something nice that would never be a "pop" hit but is a nice piece nevertheless.
This might in turn give you some inspiration to write something more commercial!
-
Hi,
I would go right back to basics.
Not sure what your main instrument of choice is but mine is piano. So i would take the pressure off yourself by writing a song using only voice and piano. Force yourself to keep it short time wise around 3 minutes is more than enough.
Johnny :)
-
I love writing music, whether it's songs or pieces, It's a mirror of how I feel, if I play live I take that mirror with me, and people can see into my soul.
Don't get too hung up about it, just play and enjoy it, sure the technique helps, but one of the most inspiring bands I ever saw was a bunch of year 7 kids who only played together a few weeks, they played an ACDC song, pretty well, but they loved playing and couldn't care if anyone else liked it, they started playing without the drummer, because he was late, now that's rock n roll.
If you like it that's all that matters, the charts will look after themselves.
cpm
-
Hi,
This video is a great watch to get you over writers block and more focused when writing songs.
Johnny :)