The Songwriter Forum - songwriting reviews, tips and chat
Songwriter Forum => The Writing Process => Topic started by: mikek on February 17, 2017, 06:20:48 PM
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poking around a bit more on the forum and seeing a surprising number of threads dealing with lyrics and no supporting music.
my writing style is never like that, never.
now i do make notes, but they aren't lyrics, they are ideas. i have an app on my phone that i use to capture the ideas. whenever something hits me and i realize, hey what a great phrase/idea that i may be able to turn into a lyric, i poke it into my phone, and it sync's to the cloud.
separately, as i'm sitting around playing the guitar, ideas jump out and i hear a melody. i hum, or sing nonsense words until something more starts to emerge. i record the idea, again, on my phone using yet another little app. then, as i begin working out the lyrics, if i get stuck, i consult my words idea dump and look for help there.
the idea of writing a complete set of lyrics for a tune that does not yet exist seems very foreign to me.
i'm extremely surprised that so many folks write in that manner.
i guess to me, its like the music is the skeleton of the song. there's not much use for the meat until the bones exist.
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I'm probably slightly in that camp - I'd actually say I'd find it odder to write a melody with no lyrics...
But guess what? I'd say that lots of those lyric writers do have the melody already in their heads or even more complete than that but are just in a phase of working on, testing out and maybe looking for validation or feedback on the lyrics... Words always suggest a rhythm and often a melody. But of course everyone has their own way and each song reveals itself in a different way and order...
But then why is there a "lyrics" area but no "melodies" area?!
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I'm probably slightly in that camp - I'd actually say I'd find it odder to write a melody with no lyrics...
But then why is there a "lyrics" area but no "melodies" area?!
haha, you should see the number of lyric free recordings on my phone!
yeah, interesting observation, lyric area and no melody area, hmm. is that an indicator that i'm in a minority in my approach to writing? i would have thought the opposite true.
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I tend to mix it up - at the moment I'm in Germany without my guitar or piano, so lyrics are all I can create. I do have a ukalele, but there's only so much I can do with that.
When I write songs lyric-first it tends to go in this sequence
1. I write a line e.g. "My baby came home drunk last night/ obviously she won the bar fight" (I just came up with this forgive me)
2. I read the line normally and think about where the natural stresses are e.g. "My baby came home drunk last night/obviously she won the bar fight"
3. Keeping the natural rhythm of the words in mind, I start jamming chords on my guitar - eventually the melody comes out of that
I agree though it is generally easier for me to write lyrics second
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Sometimes I write all the words first (though I never did it that way until I took a six-week songwriting course a couple years ago). I never write the melody first. Often, though, I write both at the same time, or sort of back and forth. I haven't found it necessary to have an instrument at hand to write melodies, but I am heavily dependent on written music. So when I write, I actually write. I keep a pad of manuscript (score) paper on a table next to my bed so I can jot down ideas without getting up.
One drawback to writing without an instrument (for me, that is--people with perfect pitch or who are better at hearing and identifying intervals in their heads don't have this problem): I sometimes slip to the wrong line or space on the staff, which throws off everything beyond that point. Even worse, sometimes I slip back and forth or mis-remember one or more intervals. What happens, though, is the errors frequently lead to an even better melody.
It seems more difficult, to me, to write melody first, as you have to make the words fit within the framework of whatever you've done, whereas it's always possible to craft music to fit whatever you have for words. A lot of times, I'll get my words pretty much done, then read through them while listening to various beat loops and/or chord loops, until I find one or more that "goes with" the words. That usually starts sparking ideas for melodies, too.
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I'm right with you mikek, 100%!!! :D
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Yeah..for me it's always..tune first!!..then sing a load of bollocks to it while the song is being developed,
then when it's finished it's still a load of bollocks.. ::) ::)
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Yeah..for me it's always..tune first!!..then sing a load of bollocks to it while the song is being developed,
then when it's finished it's still a load of bollocks.. ::) ::)
:D
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Good lyrics are important because most non-singers sing them to a melody they've made up themselves, especially in the shower. It's why some of the greatest melody writers needed a lyricist. Of course some people have it all.
A lyricist can make great music without having to play an instrument or sing, all they need is a pen, paper and someone who can write music.
Keith
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As a lyricist I obviously work on lyrics first. As has been said already, there's a nascent melody inherent in any set of lyrics in that there tends to be a flow and a rhythm that can be built on and elaborated and turned into a melody. There's natural emphasis in certain syllables and sounds that jump out from a lyric even as a read that helps develop a fairly rudimentary melody. I've recently started trying to top line from existing lyric. Yes its much tougher in that there's a set of words with a certain flow already but as long as scope is left for tweaking here or there it's fine.
Btw when I say top lining I mean very poorly putting words to some random notes. In fairness I think I'm getting better at it but I struggle when it comes to adding chords because of rhythm. The same applies to the bass line I guess too. Oddly enough I think I can write fairly decent single components ie a top line, drumbeat,bass line but I lack the glue to marry it all cohesively in a way that doesn't sound like a toddler mashing away with a jam covered hand on a keyboard....
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here's how tom petty does it apparently
http://www.miketuritzin.com/songwriting/2009/05/tom-petty/
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Many of us (me included of course) had the capacity to write lyrics long before we had the capacity to write music.
As for me. . . I still can't play an instrument, and can create music only through the magic of software.
I've written every way there is to write. Lyrics first - music then vocal/lyrics - instrumentals - adding lyrics/vocals to other people's music (with permission of course) - music and melody, then lyrics. If there is a sequence I have not used. . . it's because I couldn't think of it.
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Many of us (me included of course) had the capacity to write lyrics long before we had the capacity to write music.
yeah i find this an interesting situation. as a child i loved writing. it was natural to me and all my teachers encouraged me to continue in that direction. i should probably be writing novels or, at least, research articles and the like, but instead, i work in IT and my true talent in life is lost.
i only came into writing songs purely by luck. i played the guitar but had never considered writing a song. a friend of mine became a big Beatles nut and convinced me to play guitar in a band he was working up. next thing i knew, i was a songwriter. glad to have this creative outlet as it is a necessary escape from my otherwise, mundane existence.
i'm grateful to my old Beatles friend, as otherwise, i would never have discovered songwriting. it would likely never had occurred to me to even try it.
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I almost always tried to write words to a chord progression or riff, but increasingly words and melodies just come into my head, and I figure the chords later. Interesting process.
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I almost always tried to write words to a chord progression or riff, but increasingly words and melodies just come into my head, and I figure the chords later. Interesting process.
Interesting: I kinda wonder if you haven't just gotten familiar enough with chord progressions that melodies "come to you" with a subconscious application of chords that you just identify later. If so, I truly envy you.
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I actually use three different approaches.
Lyrics first when I have no music except in my mind. I then publish them as such so maybe someone sets them to music.
Lyrics written to music when partners send me their music. Here I insist on havin a vocal line (sung nonsense like "nanana" or so).
Lyrics invented on top of a chord progression - actually a complete backing track - when I create my own music (topline writing which I refuse to do for others because I'm not a singer except when I record my own homemade stuff).
The results differ a lot. When I just write lyrics they tend to be more poetic or better structured and phrased. When I write for others my words just serve their music (attitude, rhythm...). The ones that I'm most proud of are the ones that support the music best like these:
let us party on the beach
let us party in the streets
let us party every night
let us set the nights alight
let us feel the throbbing beat
let us feel the body heat
let's be hot or raving mad
let's be free and get on bad
The tune (of the chorus) has a driving, hammering rhythm and is the same for each two lines, hence the AA BB rhyming. A pity I may no longer provide the recording of the demo. But you may get the idea: not much imagery, no story-telling, just mimicking what the music does.
Cheers,
Bernd
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What a fun and informing thread - always nice to see other's approaches.
It kind of boggles me the other way around, guess it's just experience and how you started - soperhaps it's always a good idea to starting somewhere else from time to time and see where it takes you!
I've written poems / raps / lyrics for as long as I can remember, but it's only recently I've started to even consider melody and instrumentation.
For me generally when "making music", it's all about the lyrics; I'm writing things that I have an overwhelming need to shout out loud and the music is just a way of doing that without being sectioned.
More recently I sit around fiddling with my guitar and find some satisfying sounds independent of lyrics - but then just shoehorn these into the lyrics and rhythm already there rather than create a song around it.
All the best,
Scott.
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It's different for me every single time. I don't know what it is I'm even doing half the time, I'm just stumbling around in the dark trying to make sense of things. Sometimes I can write a song in ten minutes, other times it'll take me weeks. I have no real technique whatsoever. But I do write a lot of lyrics. A ridiculous amount, to be honest. Sometimes, if I really feel I've hit on a mood or something, I'll noodle around on a guitar or piano for a while until I find a melody that sticks to them. I'm not a melodist at all, unfortunately. My melodies come about purely by accident. I just sit there shouting into a microphone until something vaguely musical begins to form.
Writing a song is a lot like fishing.
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Sometimes I can write a song in ten minutes, other times it'll take me weeks.
Writing a song is a lot like fishing.
yeah, weeks is nothing for me. months and sometimes years, quite literally. i have a particular song for which i have rewritten the lyrics at least 5 times over several decades. the song isn't even all that great but it just keeps haunting me. i finally believe i have it finished as of 2016.
writing songs is truly a lot like fishing. sometimes i sit down with the guitar and a musical idea with melody just comes out, and if i'm lucky, the hook/chorus phrase. from there its just a matter of time before a complete song emerges. fish was biting that day! other times i go for long periods with my line in the water and no bites to speak of, or just pull in a few small perch. :)
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I actually use three different approaches.
Lyrics first when I have no music except in my mind. I then publish them as such so maybe someone sets them to music.
Lyrics written to music when partners send me their music. Here I insist on havin a vocal line (sung nonsense like "nanana" or so).
Lyrics invented on top of a chord progression - actually a complete backing track - when I create my own music (topline writing which I refuse to do for others because I'm not a singer except when I record my own homemade stuff).
The results differ a lot. When I just write lyrics they tend to be more poetic or better structured and phrased. When I write for others my words just serve their music (attitude, rhythm...). The ones that I'm most proud of are the ones that support the music best like these:
let us party on the beach
let us party in the streets
let us party every night
let us set the nights alight
let us feel the throbbing beat
let us feel the body heat
let's be hot or raving mad
let's be free and get on bad
The tune (of the chorus) has a driving, hammering rhythm and is the same for each two lines, hence the AA BB rhyming. A pity I may no longer provide the recording of the demo. But you may get the idea: not much imagery, no story-telling, just mimicking what the music does.
Cheers,
Bernd
/\THIS/\
This is a very similar approach to how I approach lyrical writing.
Also, I like to start a song from scratch with zero melody.
What I do is, I begin to write down potential lines and general ideas for the song.
Than, I break down the syllables into parts as I am writing trying to discover as many possible different ways to sing the line as possible
Once, I get a vocal arrangement that I like, only then do I begin to write the rest of the song based on the melody I just created. (The melody is normally very easy for my composer/guitarist to write a riff or melody under, because the vocal line has been established and can be heard.)
Lastly, I intend to like riffs that are double the beat of the melody I'm singing on. So, instead of singing on the "beat" I'll sing in between the beat. Doing so doesn't change the vocal melody I wrote the song in, because in essence I am still on beat, the listener is just hearing more music when I'm not singing. This gives me the luxury of accelerating the vocal progression if I want to reach a climax somewhere in the song.
This concept also works well in reverse. Starting really fast and than slowing the song down towards the end for a more rhythmic, driving feel. (Hopefully, I'm articulating this somewhat intelligently. I'm super tired and it's kind of hard for me to explain the concept without writing a book.)
Keep in mind I tend to lean more towards Metal and Hard Rock when I am writing for myself.
Finally, I try (TRY) not too nitpick over the specific lyrics in the songs until I get a vocal progression.
To say I am not normally a "free flow" writer would be an epic understatement. Although, I do employ that style in my songwriting to try to stay as diverse as possible.
But that's me.
Joe. H
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I love the magic times when it all comes at once. Lyrics, music, everything.
Such a great feeling when you get that happening!
I always start with a title or hook these days but generally I am melody led.
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Tom Petty had it right. There are insights for sure but when a man who writes a good tune or two comments,it has weight.
But, you know, honestly, you do anything you can to make it work.
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Hi!
It's interesting to think that the way you write
might have a great impact on the finished song.
I see writing the lyrics first as either writing them to
a melody inside your head which means writing simultaneously.
Or giving one self too much freedom by only
following a meter or syllable count.
My point is that there is not so much lyrics without melody
if the lyrics are written by someone with some musical ability.
It is much more common to find music that hasn't been touched by
language.
I usually get a line with melody in my head. I then write down the chords
and figure out what part verse/chorus/bridge that suits that line the best.
If it's a verse part I continue to write words for the verse following those
chords. Maybe one verse per day. Simultaneously I look for chords for the
chorus. Sometimes it comes to mind spontaneously. Some times it takes a
bit of work. That's about it.
Great thread by the way!
Martin
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Hi,
I was always found music and melody comes easily so i'd develop the tune first and then struggle to find any lyrics. I found it hard to finish songs, got bored and moved on to the next, not to finish that one easily either.
So i've consciously worked on my weakness to turn it on its head. I pretty much force myself to finish a lyric before i pick up the guitar of piano.
This means the lyrics have to stand up on their own and have i think improved as a result. The other advantages are it give its structure, a rhyming and rhythm some content which may lead me towards a musical direction.
However as been said in the end of the day its what ever works for you.
:)
Neil
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I used to invariably start with a finished lyric and then try to find a tune it worked with, but increasingly nowadsys, I will write a few lines and mess about with whatever tune/chords I'm tinkering with and see if I can establish a melody...preferably around some of the best lyrics of what I'd jotted down.
Then I spend quite a while sorting the melody out and lastly re-writing or tweaking the lyric to fit.
For me, this second way works much better.
Great thread, btw :)
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Very interesting. I always write lyrics and music kind of simultaneously. The music normally comes first (like a chord of two or a riff etc) then I start with some words over the top and that can then set up or inspire the next section and it evolves from there.
I have never written lyrics first and I am amazed by those that see lyrics and turn them into music. I think I am going to challenge myself someday to give it a go and see what comes of it.
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Being pretty new to this process, I can say at this moment in time that words inspire music development more than music inspires story development. But I have been more of a writer than a musician as an adult. Back in more youthful days, when I was more of a musician than a writer, it was the other way around. Perhaps we use whatever tools we are most familiar with at the time as our starting point and go from there.
As for inspiration, I try to do a little object writing every day and many of my lyrics have sprung from those daily exercises. My challenge is in learning music well enough to turn them into songs. I feel this method would result in a stronger song because you can choose musical phrases to emphasize certain passages. The music is more flexible than the lyrics which require more structure. They have to move the audience, keep them engaged, be predictable and catchy enough to make them want to sing along, and music can be chosen to enhance those effects making it a stronger piece.
Overall, though, I feel approaching songwriting from multiple directions would give an artist more variety in what they produce. It would help keep everything from sounding the same or getting stuck in a rut.