The Songwriter Forum - songwriting reviews, tips and chat
Songwriter Forum => Feedback on Finished songs => Topic started by: CaliaMoko on January 18, 2017, 10:02:27 PM
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I'm considering this song for an EP together with "The Mark of the Chains (https://soundcloud.com/caliamoko/the-mark-of-the-chains)", "The Ballad of the Maid of Innail (https://soundcloud.com/caliamoko/ballad-of-the-maid-of-innail)" and probably one more, not yet selected/written.
Forever Together (https://soundcloud.com/caliamoko/forever-together/s-7XP4T)
I'm posting in Finished Songs because I am done with it, unless I am moved to make changes by any feedback. I know it's a terrible recording. That will be done over at some point, but that's for later. The song itself is written and that's what I'm looking for opinions on.
I'm looking for feedback on the words: There's no rhyming, does it work? The prosody is all wrong in some places, can I get away with it?) And how about the feel of the arrangement in general--the melody, the keyboard/flute sound, and how they all fit together. Also the background vocals--they don't sound good at the moment, but is that type of idea workable--if it was polished?
I'm trying to make it sort of Celtish sounding...did I succeed?
On this one I also decided to experiment a little with production in a very elementary sense. I added some reverb, EQ and compression. In that order. I probably should have done reverb last, right? Except for the reverb I used presets, and I didn't change any adjustments. Frankly, I can't hear the difference, except for a little of the reverb--the best reason in the world for me to have someone else take care of production! But if you can tell what I did and if you have any suggestions for improvement in that regard, I'd love to hear them. It wouldn't hurt me to learn a little bit about it.
Okay, now you know the questions I need answered, here's the lyric:
FOREVER TOGETHER
Give to me a rose before you walk away from me
Don't just vanish in the night as if you'd never existed
I will always love you and I'll ever be
True to you no matter how long I...
Have to wait for you to understand that you and I
Always will be truly bonded deep in our souls
I'll be waiting here for you when you come back to
Me and I will always love you
So I say to you good-bye and sweet travels
I'll be thinking ev'ry day about you
Yes, I say to you good-bye and come back to
Be with me forever together
INSTRUMENTAL
I'll be waiting here for you when you come back to
Me and I will always love you
So I say to you good-bye and sweet travels
I'll be thinking ev'ry day about you
Yes, I say to you good-bye and come back to
Be with me forever together
© 2017 Vicki Morrison
PS: I'm no particular fan of silly love songs, and I have no idea how this one got in my head, but I had to get rid of it, so there you go.
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Hey Vicki,
Massive smile on my face :) :)
I mean the intro to your thread was like a roller-coaster ride; firstly pitting it against those two in the EP makes excited, then no rhymes? Celtish sound?
I know you have the melody power to make no rhymes go unnoticed, so I read through before listening to see if anything felt off - and found myself confused at how it seemed to work (I'm a non-rhyme skeptic)
Nice melody sung flawlessly (to my ears anyway). Production wise there's definitely some work like you've mentioned but there's definitely the makings of a beautiful and enjoyable song.
The only thing I'm not sure on is how well it fits with the others on your EP.
Personally I'd turn the flute down a decent amount and (though my Celtish knowledge isn't great) think maybe keeping it going would add ambiance over the verses?
Enjoyable listen, but just needs a bit more going on for me to go against the high standards you've set.
Cheers,
Scott.
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Thanks, Scott! I know it needs more work. I'm just trying to find out if I need to change directions altogether, or if I can work with what I have so far.
And I should have mentioned the Celtish idea with a little less emphasis. I'd like the song to sound influenced by the Celtish sound, but I wouldn't presume to be able to pull off a true Celtish tune.
I agree the flute sound is too loud; I'm still learning how to adjust sounds to they "melt" together better. I struggle to find the middle that isn't too loud or too soft.
Thanks for the feedback; it's very helpful.
Vicki
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Hey Vicki,
That’s a really haunting vibe you have going on there, melodically complex (I think) and lyrically compelling…I would say that anyone who has ‘walked away’ from a relationship will be shifting uncomfortably in their seats after listening to this and it will cause them to ‘think’…However, I don’t know if that was really your intention here but I guess that’s the great thing about music, often the same vibe can be interpreted in many different ways.
Overall though I really ‘bought into’ this so I’m not sure I can add anything constructive to what I think is already a pretty complete song – that said maybe the production side of things may benefit from tweaking but I’m no expert there so anything I say may not be that helpful
Cheers Phil
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Hi Vicki , you sing it well and it's an intriguing construction! The lack of rhymes doesn't bother me and it comes across as a bit 'stream of consciousness'. The harmony backing vocals are different and change the feel of the song. I'm not a production guy so can't add too much other than to say it's very bare in terms of production and instrumentation. Didn't sound Celtic to me, it sounded more like a sea shanty! I didn't find the lead keyboard in the instrumental section that appealing in term it was too much like a harmonium which is not particularly Celtic, a whistle, flute, or harp might help?
Interesting!
Cheers
Jamie
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Whimsical and haunting - lovely vocals - thought provoking lyrical patterns - you wont be too surprised to hear its not quite my sort of thing but a lovely put together piece.
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Doesn't seem like a silly love song to me and you shouldn't ;) ;) feel you need to apologize for writing a love song, :) :)silly or not, there's a million successful loves songs out there!!
Lovely singing, :) :)
I prefer things to rhyme, :)
like the sort of Celtic feel though think it could've been done better.. :)
production is a problem for all songwriters, unfortunately gone are the days when you could strum a song to someone..standards are high now...
just keep at it and you'll get better...
best, Kevin
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Hey Vicki.
If it's a folky feel you are after,the software instrument/flute thang is playing suitable notes,but the imitation tone sits awkwardly with the natural sound of the acoustic guitar. I get what you are after,but even if a guitar were playing the same notes,or another acoustic instrument,it would be more authentic.
I think there may be quite a bit of compression on your vocals,they do seem a bit squashed.
I don't mind the lack of rhyme,I think we get hung up on that too much and see it as a necessity,it's sometimes refreshing just to say what we mean,rather than having to 'match words'.
The other tracks you've completed with Boydie have worked well,I'd say this would too. :)
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Hi Vicki. At first I could just picture this song wafting out of a bar on the Montmartre late at night. Then I had visions of Elvis singing it in one of his films. It's a lovely love song and your voice sounds as good as ever but I had to say I found the harmonium sound a bit overwhelming. I did like your harmonies and thought they were well thought out. Good stuff Vicki
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well I read the lyrics while listening to the song & my first thought was this doesnt work
so I started the song again but not reading the lyric ...& quickly decided it did work that way & its realy good ...i loved the harmonies
I know you were going for a celtic sound but I heard it as a French torch song & the keyboard sound reminded me of one of those french accordions they have there & gave the song a real romantic parisian vibe... I could imagine you singing this for your lover in the latin quarter while smoking endless gitanes :)
I think the guitar needs to be louder & I would definitely accentuate the parisian vibe by choosing a more accordion like sound
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Thank you, thank you, thank you! This is all so helpful! Succinctly, the wailing sound is out unless I make it sound different--how different depends on exactly what end result is desired; lyrics are better when they rhyme, but for not rhyming, these are pretty okay; the melody works and the harmonies fit.
The "stream of consciousness" remark is spot on. That's how I wrote it. In fact, my idea was that I would spew out the ideas quickly, then go back and make them into a lyric. Well, once I had them, I could never figure out how to whip them into shape as a proper lyric, so I just left them. That's why there's no rhyme and the prosody is so, umm, lacking.
Anyway, I totally appreciate all the helpful comments.
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This tune is haunting! Sounds like something a mum would sing to her children to get them to sleep. Cozy vibrato on your voice too! Very cool.
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Hi Calio.
I think its a good song but it seems like you are going for a Celtic vibe so it should be ethereal. As Scott has said the flute is too high in the mix. So much so in my opinion that it jarrs against the lovely vocals and guitar. I think if you bring down the flute to the right level you will have a very fine song indeed.
Thanks,
Micky.
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This is a really lovely song, really liked the feel of it, the chord progression, the melody, the backing vocals.
But for me I thought the mix was out - the guitar is too quiet and the main vocal's a bit too loud. Also, adding a bit of reverb to the flute would push it into the background a bit and perhaps give it more of a haunting feeling. I'd love to hear an update if you do one.
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This one is really growing on me - on my fourth listen - sounds like a Lullaby - I could play it to my young family members to send them to sleep - Sounds really old like it should be an old 78 Record crackling away or from an old Disney film from the 1930/40's - Agree that the instruments do sound synthetic and spoil it a bit - but thats not the writers fault...really lovely and chilling.
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After reading through the comments again, I'm beginning to get ideas for different words for this tune! Another verse or a whole different song??? We will see! I hadn't thought about it being suitable for a lullaby, so now I'm thinking "lullaby" words. ;) Hm.......
I wasn't overly concerned with production, as I know so little about it or how to do it, but the comments regarding production have actually inspired me to want to see if I can't make it a little better. So I plan to work on that, even though I hadn't really intended to do so.
It looks like the general consensus is that the harmonies I've worked out are okay, and that was one of my biggest questions. I was afraid they sounded too artificial, for lack of a better word.
So, thanks again, to everyone who has taken the time to listen and comment. It is so helpful, and I appreciate it a lot!
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One person mentioned my voice sounded heavily compressed. I don't understand compression at all, and I simply applied the compression effect and selected a preset identified as suitable for vocals. This is what it says:
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/80188032/compression-.jpg)
Any suggestions for tweaks to that? And why? And should I post this question in a different forum??
Maybe if I just move that slider above the word "Threshold" up higher?
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If you think its a problem Vicki then just remove it. If not then just leave it in. If you're using the default settings in Reaper then it might give you a particular sound. My umble advice would be to just go with what sounds right for you. You can always tweak compressed vocals with eq anyway and that's an answer from an Amateur production guy
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If you think its a problem Vicki then just remove it. If not then just leave it in. If you're using the default settings in Reaper then it might give you a particular sound. My umble advice would be to just go with what sounds right for you. You can always tweak compressed vocals with eq anyway and that's an answer from an Amateur production guy
Thanks, John. I vacillate between wanting to learn how to do all that DAW stuff and wanting to use the time to do something else while I give that part of it to someone else (like Boydie).
It would be nice to understand it all, but...there's only so much time and so much I want to do.
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Hey Vicki. Personally I would say concentrate on your brilliant songs and leave the rest cos you have so much happening. :)
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Typing as I listen... I think this is really great. It's unusual, and I don't know whether you intend it to sound unusual or it's just how it comes out...but it works for me.
I think if you turned the acoustic up in the mix it would sound fuller, it's a bit too far away... Or even better, record a second acoustic and pan it to the opposite side.
For my taste, a tiny bit more reverb on your lead vocal would be good.
I can imagine all sorts of little touches, it makes me want to tinker with it, but as it stands I think you have a really cool sounding recording...really nice song, lovely voice, and again something unusual...something kind of hipster about it too.
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Hi
I agree with Tinam - turn the guitar up in the mix and replace the flute type thing with an accordion and you have a "chanson" in the Piaf tradition. Very lovely melody (as usual) and I also enjoyed the vocal. I love sparse instrumentation/production so that was not a problem for me.
Very lovely indeed
M
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vicki,
I'm hearing an old folk song but could hear the french thing too. You have a very unique style with the words a melody which keeps interest whilst your warm clear vocals do the rest!
Thoughts: I think I'd drop the instrumental intro and get to your vocals. I'd also consider waiting to bring in the repeated vocals until a bit later so it builds.
Anyway i'm not going to over analyse it, just play it again.
:)
Neil
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Mono Stone: Unusual is good. I hadn't thought about it specifically, but I was going for different than usual, which is, I guess, a definition of unusual. Thanks for the tips.
MontyDog: I have played with the recording some, turned up the guitar and don't remember what else I did. I haven't managed to post the update so far, though. Thanks for the ideas.
Neil C: You're a sweet talker! I'll have to think about your tips. I especially like the idea of building more before coming back in with the repeated vocals.
Thanks to everyone who took time to comment. And thanks to all who listened!
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Your voice is amazing. I like the song as it is, it has a charm. It seems sort of dreamy. I'm getting the French feel and also imagining this being sung at the court of one of our "great" monarchs - Big Enery VIII maybe.
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Just a guess, but your screenshot says the setting is called "aggressive vocal", which to me sounds like heavy compression. Is there a setting called "soft vocal" or something similar?
If not, try turning the ratio down - it's currently on 4.4 to 1. 1 to 1 is no compression at all, so make it somewhere in between, like 2 to 1?
The threshold sets the sound level above which the effect is applied. Try making this higher so only the loudest bits of your voice are compressed, but not so high that nothing gets effected.
Also it looks like there are wet and dry levels, with the dry level set to 0. This is basically the level of the sound with the effect applied (wet) and the level with no effect applied (dry). Try turning the dry up to get some of your uneffected vocals through. This is not usually done with compression, but if the control is there, try it out and see how it sounds.
Compression is one of those effects that can be hard got get your head around as to what it actually does. Took me ages to get what it was doing and couldn't really hear it to start with (not like, say, reverb where it's obvious what it's doing). But basically, imagine someone with their finger on a volume control turning it down every time there's a loud bit and back up again when it gets quiet. They do this really, really quickly, often many, many times per second. This squashes - or compresses - the sound volume down so it can be turned up to sound louder in the overall mix as the loud bits are no longer so loud. It often gives things a fuller sound but can make your ears tired when there's too much compression. It's why TV adverts are often louder than the main programme as they've been compressed to death to make them stand out.
Anyway, I guess it's a case of just moving a few sliders and hearing what happens (which can often be subtle), but easier when you understand what the sliders actually do.
Hope this helps and please keep us posted with how it goes. :)
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Hi Vicki - Yes, going back to the Reacomp VST in Reaper. I would change the ration to 2 - 2.5 and then play the vocal solo while at the same time moving the slider on the left hand side up and down. The further down you bring it the more compression you will get. The volume will go down as well but you can compensate for that by raising the level
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Excellent post, Tim.
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Thanks Skub. :)
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Hi Vicki
The lack of rhyme has no negative impact for me. Sounds perfectly good. For me this is all about the mood it creates.
The musical interludes weave well with the haunting vocal. Not sure if I'm getting a Celtic vibe though - perhaps in the vocal - some kind of children of the forest thing, but the music makes me think of something more French maybe.
Works well for me.
Digger
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Steng: Thanks so much for the sweet compliment! I mainly notice what's wrong with my voice, not what's right. I'm on a lifelong journey of learning to focus on the positive instead of the negative.
TimCurtis: What a wonderful load of good information! I now have a pretty good idea what compression means. I went through the settings, as recommended and did some experimenting. The main thing I learned is that my ears are not adequate to the task! I also checked out an instructional video on EQ--it provided what I imagine are clear examples of with and without EQ applied. In all instances--my experimenting, and the contrasts on the instructional video, I can't hear the difference. :'(
What this means to me is--I will make my vocal tracks and someone else will mix and master for the final product. For the purpose of posting my songs as I write them, I'll continue to strum and sing, of course, and I'll mess with the VSTs, but I'll go by numbers, not by what I [don't] hear.
pompeyjazz: Thanks. I was confused by how the volume changed when I changed the sliders. I didn't understand it. Your explanation really helped with that.
Skub: I don't have any response for that, but I didn't want to ignore you. ;D
digger: After hearing from you and one or two others who are fine with the lack of rhyme, I am feeling more relaxed about that aspect. I've never dabbled with non-rhyming lyrics before. And, while I have no idea what a French sound is, apparently I've stumbled on it, as there were a few other similar comments about that. Thanks for the kind words; I'm glad you liked it.
And thanks to everyone who listened!
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Vicky - really intriguing listen! I agree not so Celtic, but definitely a traditional feel. The accelerating and decelerating moving across lines really makes it interesting. I was half waiting for a killer image in the lyrics but I think the simplicity is actually a better way to go for this style.
Re production, I think the right question is "what problem am I trying to fix?" If you hear something you don't like (a vocal that goes from very soft to very loud, a vocal that clashes with other instruments, a vocal that sounds very flat and unnatural etc. etc.) then effects are there to help. I expect some would say that a close-mic'd vocal should usually have some reverb added as it may sound weird without any "space" around it. But I don't think you need to automatically add compression, EQ etc. every time, particularly in a 5 or 6 track mix, until you are very sure, as you may even risk creating more problems by doing so!