The Songwriter Forum - songwriting reviews, tips and chat
Songwriter Forum => The Writing Process => Topic started by: GuyBarry on January 17, 2017, 01:24:55 PM
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I've just read and contributed to the thread about chord progressions in "Streets of London". I thought it was an interesting question and answered it as best I could. Almost everyone else in the thread, though, seemed to be of the view that theory really didn't matter and you should just go with what sounds good.
Here are some chords I've just written for a swing number I'm working on. (I've never written in that style before.)
F6 | Db6 C9 | F6 Ebmaj7 | D9 |
Gm7 C9 | F6 Dm7 | Db6 | Gm7 C9 |
F6 | Db6 C9 | F6 Ebmaj7 | D9 G9 |
C9 | F6 Dm7 | G7 | C9 F7 |
Bb7 | F9 | Bb7 | F9 |
Bb7 E7 | Am7 D7 | G7 | C9 F7 |
Bb7 | F9 | Bb7 | F9 |
Bb7 E7 | Am7 D7 | Gm7 C9 | F6 |
There is simply no way I could have come up with all that without some knowledge of theory. I had a basic chord structure in mind and then experimented at the keyboard to work out the best notes to add to each chord.
Take the progression from Bb7 to E7, for instance. It works because there's an enharmonic change from the Ab in the first chord to the G# in the second, plus the third of the first chord (D) becomes the seventh of the second. I think it sounds great but I'd never have come up with it out of the blue!
Once again, as on other occasions, I feel out of step with the consensus here (apart from Vicki and maybe one or two others). I'm interested in the details of construction of harmonies, of melodies, of lyrics, and they're the very things that don't seem to get discussed. Why not?
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I had a basic chord structure in mind and then experimented at the keyboard to work out the best notes to add to each chord.
I think you may have answered your own question there!
The fact that you experimented and "found" the notes that sounded good is what most people do without a deep knowledge of harmony
To many this is the "joy" of songwriting - the feeling that you have "discovered" something
In reality most things that "sound good" to western ears is very likely to be explainable with VERY simple music theory
However, I personally think a good grasp/knowledge of music theory is a very powerful tool in a songwriter's toolkit
I like to think of music theory as a map or "sat nav" when travelling on a car journey
Some people like to just set off on a journey and find their own way to a destination
Some people like to meticulously follow a sat nav and not really think about anything whilst driving
Some people like to just have it there as a "safety net" in case they get lost
Sat navs can also be used to find completely new ways to get somewhere, which take in breathtaking scenery and open up a whole world of new ways to get somewhere
Even is you don't follow a sat nav or map you could always use one to review your journey and understand how you got where you did and note any particular areas of interest along the way - in the same way that music theory can ALWAYS explain why something "worked" or didn't work
I have spent a lot of time learning music theory by gaining my Grade 8 in guitar and I have recently completed an advanced diploma in music theory
I am currently in the process of putting together a "scheme of works" / lesson plans to distil music theory down to the essentials that I think songwriters and producers would want to know (which I will be testing with members of the forums when I get something down!)
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I am currently in the process of putting together a "scheme of works" / lesson plans to distil music theory down to the essentials that I think songwriters and producers would want to know (which I will be testing with members of the forums when I get something down!)
I am looking forward to seeing this! I only ever got so far in theory and then I bogged down and couldn't make any further sense of it. I've tackled the subject a couple times since college but I always get lost when it starts getting complicated.
I'm about ready for another attempt! :)
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I enjoy music theory a lot – be it scales, chords, progressions, whatever. In fact it’s one reason why I’m a rubbish improviser – I always end up adhering far too closely to the rules. When I analyse solos that I like, I often discover that my favourite bits are where the rules get broken, where a “wrong” note is played, thus creating a bit of frisson and tension. But even being aware of this when I solo I always end up sticking closely to the chord or scale tones, or falling back on well used licks or pentatonic scales.
All that said, when it comes to song-writing I tend not to think in terms of theory at all. It all comes down to feeling and a good story. Probably should use some of that theory to break out of the few melodies and chord sequences that I always fall back on, but then I find I don’t have the ability to sing complex lines over unusual sequences so what’s the point? I see no reason to write a song I can’t perform. So it’s three chord tricks, ii-V-1s, diminished passing chords, and the circle of fifths for me :o
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I'm another theory hound. But I disagree that it's essential to good songwriting, or that it can inhibit the creative process in any way.
Here's how I see it. Making music is primarily about using your ears. Something either sounds good (or how you want it to sound) or it doesn't. End of. You might understand the names of the chords or cadences or modes or scales that create that sound or you might not. Not knowing the names doesn't mean you can't come up with super-complex chord sequences. Although maybe it makes it unlikely.
I tend to leave thinking about theory out of the songwriting process too - although if I paint myself into a harmonic corner, I will occasionally call on my theory knowledge to escape the maze. Theory can also come in useful when 'painting' the finished arrangement, creating extended chords and such like with the different instruments.
As for why most people seem to hold learning theory in disdain, I honestly think it's a combination of finding it dull (maybe it reminds them of painful childhood music lessons taken under duress) and that they believe the myth that it stifles creativity. Let me burst that bubble right now: show me a classical composer, and I'll show you someone who knows their theory inside out and lacks nothing in creativity...
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An interesting topic. Agree that is a very useful skill set. Personally my only music theory was some music lessons at school which to be honest at the time I found painfully dull. In hindsight I wish I'd paid more attention. As I'm completely self taught I couldn't tell you what chords I'm playing half of the time but for songwriters I don't think that matters too much. You know when something fits with something else, like Tone says its a matter of using your ears. Not saying theory isn't important, just that its not essential
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My dad was a music teacher, conductor, tenor horn player and occasionally an adjudicator. I started learning to play trombone when I was three or so and learned quite a lot of theory when I was a kid...but a 50/50 combination of boredom and failure to measure up (my dad, brother and grandad were all very good players) ended up with me turning my back on the whole thing by the time I was 14 (I did win my solo section at a county-wide music contest when I was 13, so I wasn't a turkey)
There's nothing quite like sitting in the Royal Albert Hall all day listening to 24 brass bands all play the same 20-minute test piece to decide which one played it marginally better than all the others to put you off.
Theory and practicing...I found it too much of a brain-ache to take it all in. Discovering the clash 1st album meant that instead of fiddling about picking the lock, I could just kick the door down. It was quite liberating, because before that, the best player almost always won, and if you couldn't jump through the hoops, there was no place for you.
The unfortunate chip on my shoulder that I've always had often left me feeling that there was a lot of elitism in the music world.
Sorry...this has turned into a bit of a ramble :)
Time for my tablet...
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The unfortunate chip on my shoulder that I've always had often left me feeling that there was a lot of elitism in the music world.
There is a lot of elitism in the music world. Hell, there's elitism in all the arts, and in pretty much everything else a (wo)man can do. I totally get how growing up in that environment can make you feel bored or stifled though. To me it's the downfall of the classical music world that they teach kids the way they do (or did). Music is fun, whether it's pop, classical, jazz, whatever. Sure, we all want to be good, but having a good start in an inclusive environment goes a hell of a long way. And we can't all be concert-standard performers, but that shouldn't mean we don't have a place.
I'm glad you discovered the Clash, Paul. It's great that you still play music after your early trauma ;)
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Theory has a place in songwriting and music making fo'sure but like any expressive medium it is not an answer to every and any problem nor is it a guarantee to writing 'good' songs nor is conversely a barrier to writing good songs. I see it kinda like sport - reading all the books you like on martial arts is going to turn you into Bruce Lee. Try sticking to what you read and you'll get outclassed by someone who follows their natural instinct and where the fight/duel is going. The same with music - be aware f theory but follow what sounds 'right' in terms of what vibe or sound you are looking for.
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The Clash... Ah, don't get me started. An absolute revolution in music. It was like, Hang on, I can join this party too, it's not the exclusive little club that you're not allowed to enter. I personally think that punk was the biggest revolution that ever happened in music but then I am of that era but I'm still proud to retain that ethos
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Ha! I just remembered...
when the adjudicator presented me with 1st prize at that contest...he saw my surname and said "oh, are you one of Colin's lads?" (Colin, of course, being my dad)
Even in victory, there was no escape!
My dad's 86 now...a lovelier man you couldn't hope to meet. I was never under pressure from anyone but myself :)
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It's all information
Some learned and some guessed
I use what I need to
And leave all the rest
Theory and schooling
Can open a door
When I run out of music
I go learn me sum moar
:D
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The answer is in the middle... Neither Washington nor Moscow...
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The Clash... Ah, don't get me started. An absolute revolution in music. It was like, Hang on, I can join this party too, it's not the exclusive little club that you're not allowed to enter. I personally think that punk was the biggest revolution that ever happened in music but then I am of that era but I'm still proud to retain that ethos
This.
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Good thread, but... I want to try an experiment. Here's the chord sequence I originally posted.
F6 | Db6 C9 | F6 Ebmaj7 | D9 |
Gm7 C9 | F6 Dm7 | Db6 | Gm7 C9 |
F6 | Db6 C9 | F6 Ebmaj7 | D9 G9 |
C9 | F6 Dm7 | G7 | C9 F7 |
Bb7 | F9 | Bb7 | F9 |
Bb7 E7 | Am7 D7 | G7 | C9 F7 |
Bb7 | F9 | Bb7 | F9 |
Bb7 E7 | Am7 D7 | Gm7 C9 | F6 |
I haven't told you anything about the melody or lyrics that I'm imagining with it. If you were given that chord sequence and asked to write a song around it, what would you come up with?
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Looking at the chord progression, the first thing that came to mind was a Rufus Wainwright-y kind of thing, in the vein of his song Manhattan Skyline... The chords have a certain feel to them that suggests a very particular kind of vibe, but it's not one I would ever gravitate toward. I do like the Bb7 to E7 though. Might have to fiddle about with that sometime.
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Looking at the chord progression, the first thing that came to mind was a Rufus Wainwright-y kind of thing, in the vein of his song Manhattan Skyline...
Didn't know the song so I googled it - do you mean Memphis Skyline? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAe1lVDbLf0)
Very interesting - absolutely nothing like what I've got in mind!
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The chord progression looks really interesting, and I like the chords in it--the ones I can play, that is. I was trying to work through them this morning, and I hurt my arm, so I had to quit! :P Obviously, I'm not practicing enough, if it's that easy to hurt my arm....
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The chord progression looks really interesting, and I like the chords in it--the ones I can play, that is. I was trying to work through them this morning, and I hurt my arm, so I had to quit! :P Obviously, I'm not practicing enough, if it's that easy to hurt my arm....
You hurt your arm trying to play my chords? I'm terribly sorry, I didn't realize they were that dangerous. I'll post a health warning next time ;)
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;D
I'll add some exercises to my workout to deal with the problem.
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Didn't know the song so I googled it - do you mean Memphis Skyline? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAe1lVDbLf0)
Very interesting - absolutely nothing like what I've got in mind!
Yes that's the one! Memory's obviously taking a hit in my old age :D Did you like the song?
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To be honest, not really my cup of tea. My song's a really uptempo number so it was the complete opposite of his!
I'm hoping to finish off the lyrics today so that I can run through it at our jam session tonight. I'll see if I can do a recording so that you've an idea of what it sounds like. It's called "I Never Expected You".
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Good thread, but... I want to try an experiment. Here's the chord sequence I originally posted.
F6 | Db6 C9 | F6 Ebmaj7 | D9 |
Gm7 C9 | F6 Dm7 | Db6 | Gm7 C9 |
F6 | Db6 C9 | F6 Ebmaj7 | D9 G9 |
C9 | F6 Dm7 | G7 | C9 F7 |
Bb7 | F9 | Bb7 | F9 |
Bb7 E7 | Am7 D7 | G7 | C9 F7 |
Bb7 | F9 | Bb7 | F9 |
Bb7 E7 | Am7 D7 | Gm7 C9 | F6 |
I haven't told you anything about the melody or lyrics that I'm imagining with it. If you were given that chord sequence and asked to write a song around it, what would you come up with?
I took up your challenge and here's my melody. The backing isn't brilliant and it doesn't swing, sorry.
https://soundcloud.com/diademgrove/guy-barrys-blues/s-LbFkj
If you don't have any objection I'd like to post the track in the collaborration section to see if someone can come up with any words.
I enjoyed trying to create a melody so thank you for putting up the chord sequence and asking what we could come with.
Keith
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I took up your challenge and here's my melody. The backing isn't brilliant and it doesn't swing, sorry.
https://soundcloud.com/diademgrove/guy-barrys-blues/s-LbFkj
Oh, absolutely lovely! It's so completely different from my tune, and yet I can sort of "hear" my song in a weird ghostly way through it.
If you don't have any objection I'd like to post the track in the collaborration section to see if someone can come up with any words.
By all means do! I'll try to get my song recorded as soon as possible so you can hear what I was thinking of. (I'm performing it on Thursday so maybe I can arrange a recording then.)
I enjoyed trying to create a melody so thank you for putting up the chord sequence and asking what we could come with.
Thanks for taking the time to create the melody! Maybe the forum should try more things like this.
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I'm glad you liked it. I had a lot of fun writing it. Thanks for letting me put it up on the collaboration section. It'll be most probably be tomorrow, football's on the radio.
I'm looking forward to hearing your song.
Thanks again for inviting me to write a melody to your chords. It'll be good to see some more collaboration like this on the site.
Keith
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I took up your challenge and here's my melody. The backing isn't brilliant and it doesn't swing, sorry.
https://soundcloud.com/diademgrove/guy-barrys-blues/s-LbFkj
Oh, absolutely lovely! It's so completely different from my tune, and yet I can sort of "hear" my song in a weird ghostly way through it.
If you don't have any objection I'd like to post the track in the collaborration section to see if someone can come up with any words.
By all means do! I'll try to get my song recorded as soon as possible so you can hear what I was thinking of. (I'm performing it on Thursday so maybe I can arrange a recording then.)
I enjoyed trying to create a melody so thank you for putting up the chord sequence and asking what we could come with.
Thanks for taking the time to create the melody! Maybe the forum should try more things like this.
Fantastic stuff! :)
I do enjoy these kind of less structured/forced collaboration and agree the forum should be a place where more of this stuff happens. I've tried to encourage this kind of activity with the collab league (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=11878.0) but am not quite hitting the mark yet. Any suggestions to on how we can help encourage this sort of stuff I'll be willing to put some of my effort behind it if y'all think I can bring some value.
All the best,
Scott.
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Just thought I'd let you know that I've just been rehearsing "I Never Expected You" (for which those chords were written) in preparation for a big event tonight. It'll all be recorded, so when it's done I'll ask for a sound file of the song and post it here for comparison. (Or I might submit it tp the review forums - haven't decided yet.)
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Knocked this up from Guy's progression.
I suppose I could have dressed it up more prettily but.....how much time am I willing to spend on this!
Don't Make Me Lose My Rag (https://soundcloud.com/cramer1930/dont-make-me-lose-my-rag/s-FMaDg)
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Hi GuyBarry!
It will be fun to hear the tune in its intended way.
To be honest your chord chart gave me a headache.
I just can't stand jazz chords there's too much tension
in them and at the same time an uptempo melody.
That is in now way a criticism to your song and
I might even enjoy it. I do like Django R. .
Back to the subject. I think a too elaborate chord
progression can inhibit the interpreters flow of the
melody. Your fist chords F6 to Db6 ( in the key of F)
we have three notes moving and the note F standing still. (Right?)
All of these give possible implications of how the melody
could, not should, go. But it also makes some
notes, D for example, all good in the key of F, but
which would give Db6b9 (sorry for the ugly chord)
when changing to Db6.
What I'm trying to say is that jazz harmony works in it's
own universe. The F6 to Db6 is a I6 to iv7/3( fourth chord with
a minor seventh and the third as a bass note). A sort of cadence
going to C9 the dominant. (Interesting how the D dips to Db and
is then raised up again(!)). A chord structure that with its
added notes to the root chords both opens and closes doors.
Jazz is both ultra traditional, with note by note following genre
masters improvised solos, all the way to the very avant-garde.
Pop/western/country works on another plane. Other rules.
Often theoretically easier but musically just as complex at some
times. I guess its obvious by now I like country singers like Gillian Welch
more than Benny Goodman.
I'm glad you've found theory helpful (and not an obstacle) :) when composing.
The myth of the harmful theoretical and schooled and the awesome natural
talent is still live and kicking. Something tells me that's not gonna change
after all it has been around a few thousand years. That true talent can not be
taught. But all around us we see the contrary. It's all about will and determination
if you want to learn. If it comes easy to you, well happy you.
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Knocked this up from Guy's progression.
I suppose I could have dressed it up more prettily but.....how much time am I willing to spend on this!
Don't Make Me Lose My Rag (https://soundcloud.com/cramer1930/dont-make-me-lose-my-rag/s-FMaDg)
Reminded me of Scott Joplin and silent films. Very impressive.
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Knocked this up from Guy's progression.
I suppose I could have dressed it up more prettily but.....how much time am I willing to spend on this!
Don't Make Me Lose My Rag (https://soundcloud.com/cramer1930/dont-make-me-lose-my-rag/s-FMaDg)
Oh lovely - and again quite different from my tune! I tried singing "I Never Expected You" over the top of it and it makes quite an interesting countermelody.
You'll hopefully get to hear the original soon.
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Hi GuyBarry!
It will be fun to hear the tune in its intended way.
To be honest your chord chart gave me a headache.
I just can't stand jazz chords there's too much tension
in them and at the same time an uptempo melody.
That is in now way a criticism to your song and
I might even enjoy it. I do like Django R.
It went down really well last night! I think it's my favourite out of all the songs I've written.
Back to the subject. I think a too elaborate chord
progression can inhibit the interpreters flow of the
melody. Your fist chords F6 to Db6 ( in the key of F)
we have three notes moving and the note F standing still. (Right?)
All of these give possible implications of how the melody
could, not should, go.
The melody is quite chromatic. I'm basically singing an arpeggio over the F6 chord, then I sing Ab-Bb-Ab-G over the Db6 and the C9, then the next note's an A natural and we're back into F again. Fortunately I'm quite good at singing chromatic stuff!
Thanks for the rest of the analysis.
I'm glad you've found theory helpful (and not an obstacle) :) when composing.
I find it invaluable. If I didn't know any theory, I'd still be writing with three chords, and I wouldn't be able to experiment in the way I do. A lot of people on this forum appear to have a very different approach, so I'm glad that you appear to understand where I'm coming from.
The myth of the harmful theoretical and schooled and the awesome natural
talent is still live and kicking. Something tells me that's not gonna change
after all it has been around a few thousand years. That true talent can not be
taught. But all around us we see the contrary. It's all about will and determination
if you want to learn. If it comes easy to you, well happy you.
I like to think I've got a pretty good natural talent for music, but it's definitely been enhanced by knowing some theory. As I've said elsewhere, I started learning theory when I was very young and in some ways my entire appreciation of music is based around it. To take a simple example, I hear all music relative to a key (even if I don't know what key that is). It was quite a shock to realize that not all musicians hear music in the same way and that some of them have difficulty identifying what the keynote is.
One of the comedy songs I posted for review some time ago is called "Christmas Cacophony". The lyrics are (hopefully) funny in themselves but I put in an extra joke for musicians - the harmony keeps pointlessly changing key all over the place, with silly chord progressions like C-A-Db-G7. I was surprised at the time that some people here didn't seem to get the joke - but if they had no concept of key, then I suppose it would just sound like a sequence of random chords. Perhaps it's possible to be too clever sometimes!
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For those of you lucky enough to be able to read sheet music, here's the song in manuscript. I'll post the lyrics in the "lyrics" section.
http://guys-diary.blogspot.co.uk/2017/01/blog-post.html (http://guys-diary.blogspot.co.uk/2017/01/blog-post.html)
Note that it's written in "swing notation" (thanks to VC for putting me on to this), where what's written as two quavers is actually two-thirds of a beat followed by a third of a beat, so the effect is 12/8 rather than 4/4. Much easier to write that way!
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Well I did promise an audio recording of I Never Expected You, and the recording of the live performance isn't available yet, so you'll have to make do with this botched-up home-made attempt where I attempted to multi-track with myself. Apologies for my terrible piano playing but I hope you like the song! (I won't submit it for review since I haven't been reviewing other people's work recently.)
This will probably be my last post to the forum, for a while at least. Thanks to all the people who've been supportive of me, especially PaulAds and Vicki (CaliaMoko). Sorry if I've trodden on some people's toes but it's not the first time that's happened on an internet forum. Happy writing!
https://soundcloud.com/user-193365401/i-never-expected-you-home-made (https://soundcloud.com/user-193365401/i-never-expected-you-home-made)
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Well I did promise an audio recording of I Never Expected You, and the recording of the live performance isn't available yet, so you'll have to make do with this botched-up home-made attempt where I attempted to multi-track with myself. Apologies for my terrible piano playing but I hope you like the song! (I won't submit it for review since I haven't been reviewing other people's work recently.)
This will probably be my last post to the forum, for a while at least. Thanks to all the people who've been supportive of me, especially PaulAds and Vicki (CaliaMoko). Sorry if I've trodden on some people's toes but it's not the first time that's happened on an internet forum. Happy writing!
https://soundcloud.com/user-193365401/i-never-expected-you-home-made (https://soundcloud.com/user-193365401/i-never-expected-you-home-made)
Comedy songs has to be seen to be funny but maybe its the mood im in but on recording it just doesn't work, maybe im wrong, you do remind me of Arthur Askey so maybe give it more of Jerry Lewis Dean Martin, just a thought 8)
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Good thread, but... I want to try an experiment. Here's the chord sequence I originally posted.
F6 | Db6 C9 | F6 Ebmaj7 | D9 |
Gm7 C9 | F6 Dm7 | Db6 | Gm7 C9 |
F6 | Db6 C9 | F6 Ebmaj7 | D9 G9 |
C9 | F6 Dm7 | G7 | C9 F7 |
Bb7 | F9 | Bb7 | F9 |
Bb7 E7 | Am7 D7 | G7 | C9 F7 |
Bb7 | F9 | Bb7 | F9 |
Bb7 E7 | Am7 D7 | Gm7 C9 | F6 |
I haven't told you anything about the melody or lyrics that I'm imagining with it. If you were given that chord sequence and asked to write a song around it, what would you come up with?
I just took a music course, and (for the first time in my life) can actually read and reproduce the chords you wrote here.
I was considering just creating a song from the for practice.
If it turns out to be any good (and I can actually DO it) I'll send you a p.m. and let you listen to it. If you don't hear from me . . . well, you'll know I failed. 'o)