The Songwriter Forum - songwriting reviews, tips and chat
Songwriter Forum => Recording => Topic started by: Skub on January 10, 2017, 06:13:21 PM
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From what I gather it's frowned upon to mix using headphones,studio monitors being the desired option. My problem is that I don't have the luxury of a recording room set aside and properly kitted out for sound,plus to avoid annoying others I must make do with a set of cans. Thing is..I have access to a set of studio monitors,but not the environment to make proper use of them.. ::)
Closed back for recording and open back for mixing is the sum of information trawled of the interwebz.
The question is..for my humble little projects do I really need a set specifically for mixing,am I talking overkill/splitting hairs here? Will the one set I'm currently using do the job and I need to slap myself upside the dome?
:)
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Skub - I think there's nothing so wrong with mixing on headphones. I also need to. In some ways it may be actually better than mixing in a weird sounding room.
But you must have ones that are as "flat" as possible. If you mix using mainstream commercial headphones they inevitably bump up the bass so you'll turn it down too far and your mixes will be lacking in that end (from experience!).
You probably need "over the ear" ones for comfort - may be a personal thing but I can't have the on-ear ones on for long.
I have AKG K 240s (old Austrian made ones) which I think do the job really well for the price.
I also have some normal person ones and iphone ones which I also use at various times to get another view of what the mix is sounding like. And you should definitely listen on different speakers as well at times before pressing send...
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Yes. I would say listen on as many different speakers / monitors as you can plus burn a cd and listen in the car
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Ta John and Adam.
This whole thing only occurred to me over the Xmas period when I tried a fancy set of my son's headphones and they delivered a totally different sound to my own.
His were far more bass heavy and the track I was working on sounded woolly and lacking in top end,whereas my own made the mix more balanced and where my ears thought it was right. This set the cogs whirring and had me asking myself which set of cans were giving me the most neutral sound?
You can see the train of thought which led to this thread! :D
I use a set of inexpensive Sennheiser HD205. I guess I was shocked at the difference between the two headphones,I wasn't expecting to hear a night/day thing.
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Commercial headphones are designed to make the music sound good, which usually means boosting the bass
This is no good for mixing!!!!
If you mixed using these headphones you will end up with mixes that actually LACK bass - i.e. If the headphones boost bass whilst you mix, then you will end up compensating for this by not mixing the bass high enough - so when you listen on a system that doesn't artificially boost the bass the songs will sound very bass light
The best headphones for mixing have a flat frequency response to help you make these decisions
There is also software that can emulate the experience of listening to speakers
My preferred combo is KRK KNS 8400 headphones and a Focusrite VRM box (which has been discontinued because it does not always work with USB 3.0 >:( )
WAVES also have a software based system (Waves NX)
Finally, there is software by SONARWORKS that can "correct" the frequency response of your headphones by "profiling" the sound they give and use very precise EQ to flatten them - there are preset profiles for some well known mixing headphones
I have to be honest and say that I tried the profile for my headphones and did not really notice an improvement with the software
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Ta Paul. Informative as ever. :)
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I also usually mix using headphones as I don't want the rest of the house hearing it until I'm happy. Just a crap pair of in-ear headphones. Not good at all, I know. Used to have a pair of Sennheiser headphones but over the years the cushion foam disappeared then the lead became dodgy. I should really look for another pair.....birthday's coming up soon.... ;)
I then do a mix through monitor speakers - Tannoy mix monitors with a flat frequency response but through a 90s Yamaha hi-fi amp, so probably that's not so good either. I vary my location from in front on the speakers, standing in different places around the room and also outside the room with the door closed. This last one was a trick I picked up that helps to hear whether the levels are correct - if something's out I can almost always hear it outside the door when I can't hear it when I'm close to the speakers.
The other thing I do is to listen in the car at a loud volume. Particularly when driving fast down the motorway. Again, the background noise helps me hear if the levels are correct.
Finally, I try to play it on as many stereos (and headphones) as possible as they all seem to sound different. It's weird how I notice even the smallest difference in my own music but not others. But basically, the more equipment you get it to sound good on, the better, I reckon.
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i have found that my mixes have improved after i stopped using headphones. i purchased some jbl powered monitors designed for studio use and i have them elevated to my head height. i sit 6' from them, and have them angling in a bit right at me. i don't have a treated room or anything like that... just a small extra bedroom that i use as a simple recording studio.
once i think i have it in the ballpark, i will render a wav and dump to my phone. from there i can listen via headphones, or through my car stereo system, etc. i believe it is important to try as many listening mediums as possible in order to learn what the song will sound like outside of my environment.
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Proper monitors in a treated room are definitely the preferred option
It sounds like you have quite a nice room, or you have "learnt the room" and have compensated accordingly when mixing by checking them on other systems (another really good thing to do)
@ MIKEK
It would an interesting exercise to do a "frequency sweep" of your room to see how it affects what you hear
You can get the files from here - they will sweep through the frequencies and a "perfect room" will have a consistent volume of sound throughout the range. If you notice the sound gets louder or quieter you will be able to identify the frequency ranges that are adversely affecting what you here in your room
http://www.audiocheck.net/testtones_sinesweep20-20k.php
I have been in really bad rooms that have a dramatic affect on the mix as it is heard in that room
The advantage of headphones is that they take the room out of the equation so you will at least get a "consistent" sound - although this could be a consistently bad sound
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Dang, the computer in my music room is off network...its dedicated to recording and not updated and safe for Internet use. Otherwise, I would be interested to run the frequency test.
I do need to invest in some quality headphones. I'm sure having top shelf flat response recording headphones would be a game changer
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There are plug ins that compensate for headphone mixing. We found then to work well especially with good quality specialist headphones.
Listen in the car is an old trick that many of the greats use.
Once finished try to play on many monitors. In your case we have a bunch of play back systems, crap stereo, car, phone, hifi. We check in these too.
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Check out the Focusrite VRM solution
Supposed to be very good
I've just won one on eBay to check for myself but suspect I'll still end up trying out mixes on every set of speakers I own!
Cheers
Steve
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Good options there,ta folks. :)
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The quality of the headphones matters a lot, I think good headphones beat monitors in an untreated room. I used both but can't really get as much detail from my monitors in here.
Anyone looking for great reference headphones on a budget - Try Samson SR850 .... they are amazing and you can get them new for about £30 at the moment. In my opinion they're as good as you can get without spending hundreds.
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@ MIKEK
It would an interesting exercise to do a "frequency sweep" of your room to see how it affects what you hear
You can get the files from here - they will sweep through the frequencies and a "perfect room" will have a consistent volume of sound throughout the range. If you notice the sound gets louder or quieter you will be able to identify the frequency ranges that are adversely affecting what you here in your room
http://www.audiocheck.net/testtones_sinesweep20-20k.php
I have been in really bad rooms that have a dramatic affect on the mix as it is heard in that room
i went ahead and got my recording machine all patched and internet safe so i could tinker with this sinesweep test. what i found is that the extremely low band is noticeably quiet, and as the sweep increases to the mid-frequencies, so does the volume. things are fairly consistent throughout to the highest frequencies where the volume starts to taper off quite a bit. part of the high taper could be quite literally, my failing hearing.
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That was a worthwhile exercise then - perhaps mixing with an artificially boosted low end will compensate for the room and help your mixes translate well
Some strategic acoustic treatment would be the best bet - and it is great you have a reference to refer to now
Another option is to use some room correction software/hardware
I have heard good things about ARC 2
http://www.ikmultimedia.com/products/arc/
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the room i'm in is smallish, probably 11'x14'
i have my monitors at head height, 6' from me, angled in pointing at the sides of my head. the results of the test make me wonder what is happening to the bass. i clearly do not understand acoustics.
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On this subject,
I have just added some treatment to my room, took some measurements using REW (loads of vids on youtube) and I found I had a lot of boost around 250-300hz, actually from my room.
I am monitoring on a set of KRK rokit 8 and a set of rolands Ma 150U, with a bit of corrective EQ i now use this EQ on my mastering and mixing bus when finalising.
Surprising how a lot of bass can sound great but when put on CD and played in your car, BOOOM, a lot of bass is present.
They say trust your ears.......they lie a lot sometimes.
Anyway, just my two pennys worth,
happy recording
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hi skub
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Sennheiser-HD-598-Over-Ear-Headphones-x/dp/B0042A8CW2/ref=sr_1_54?s=electronics-accessories&ie=UTF8&qid=1490631332&sr=1-54
blooming long link but hopefully should introduce you to my choice of headphones
the missus presented me with these as birthday prissy couple of years back and they were a revalation..
they suit my listening taste i suppose and more importantly have given me confidence when mixing..
other fairly decent headphones use to give me 'ear burn' or tired ears after a while, could be harsh but these don't..
i suffer from tinnitus and lost quite a lot of top off my hearing..years of bashing a drumkit and bad headphones when i began writing at home..but these have great clarity and definition and i believe allow me to compensate to a certain extent.. nice bass response too
anyway don't want to deafen you with science..
they're just great headphones, for me anyway
plus they've got velvet cuffs and keep the ears lovely and warm.
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Fine looking cans nooms,it's a great pity we can't road test a selection of headphones before buying. The choice is so broad and the reports so inconsistent,it's hard to judge. I've sort of resigned myself to using my current headphones for the time being,mostly because it's sometimes better the devil you know!
Ta for the thought. :)
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If the songs you've been posting are anything to go by you don't need to worry about anything.. :) :)
yer doin fine mate!! :) :)
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Ta Kev. You know what it's like,we all think we are missing that definitive piece of gear that will bring about a major step up in quality! :D
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@ MIKEK
It would an interesting exercise to do a "frequency sweep" of your room to see how it affects what you hear
You can get the files from here - they will sweep through the frequencies and a "perfect room" will have a consistent volume of sound throughout the range. If you notice the sound gets louder or quieter you will be able to identify the frequency ranges that are adversely affecting what you here in your room
http://www.audiocheck.net/testtones_sinesweep20-20k.php
I have been in really bad rooms that have a dramatic affect on the mix as it is heard in that room
i went ahead and got my recording machine all patched and internet safe so i could tinker with this sinesweep test. what i found is that the extremely low band is noticeably quiet, and as the sweep increases to the mid-frequencies, so does the volume. things are fairly consistent throughout to the highest frequencies where the volume starts to taper off quite a bit. part of the high taper could be quite literally, my failing hearing.
Careful drawing conclusions from this as you will also be recording the response of your mic and preamp.
Most condenser mics have 'bump' somewhere from 2-8Khz. Most preamps and many mics will tail off significantly in the low end and high end. Plus the human ears' response is wild: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal-loudness_contour
SPL meters are usually used for measuring the freq. response of a room at different listening positions.
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Took me a while but I finally got around to getting me some KRK KNS 8400s on Boydie's recommendation. Man they're beautiful! Like having my studio speakers strapped to my head. Finally I can mix without wakin up half the neighbourhood.
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They are great aren't they - and soooooooooooo comfortable as well
I was just thinking the other day that if they ever broke I wouldn't hesitate getting another pair - I am even considering getting a spare set just in case!!!!
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They are great aren't they - and soooooooooooo comfortable as well
Yep! love them. just been led in the dark with them for hours. Not in a weird way... I was listening to music...
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Yep - Just giving my KRK's a first listen - A new dimension :)
Thanks Boydie and Jack :)