[Sunfighter]

Hello everyone,

This is a question about send effects, something I have only just started experimenting with.

On a typical mix I assumed that the reverb from an instrument would normally be panned to the same place in the mix as the instrument? 

Currently my plugin (Roomworks SE) creates a mono or stereo reverb output.  Even with the stereo option there's only an overall pan for the reverb - the reverb from all the instruments gets sent to the same place in the mix.

e.g if I solo a track which is hard panned to the left, the output from the send reverb is stereo.  Obviously I COULD pan the reverb output but that only work for one track, and is no good for all the other tracks in the mix, as its a send effect.

This seems odd to me.  If I use an insert reverb instead the output from the reverb is in the same part of the stero mix as the instrument.

So...should the reverb be panned to the same place as the instrument, or all the reverb go into one "general" stereo reverb track?

Its possible that its a restriction in Cubase Essential, which is a lite version of the real thing.  But more likely it's just because I don't understand what I'm doing.

Any got any advice?

[tone]

It does sound like it could be a restriction on the lite version of cubase. There are a couple of ways around this - one is to 'print' the reverb. This means bounce the track and the reverb where you want it to a new stereo track, freeing up the reverb to use on another track.

Or, if you have a choice of reverbs, you could use a different one for different tracks.

I'm sure you know this already, but just in case, I probably wouldn't use reverb on every track. Unless you're recording just a guitar (or piano) and vocal.

Hope that helps

[Boydie]

As we often discuss on this forum there are no "rules" so it all depends on the effect you are after - and then using the equipment/tools you have to achieve

So...should the reverb be panned to the same place as the instrument, or all the reverb go into one "general" stereo reverb track?

If you are going for a "real world" sound then it is useful to think about sound in the "real world"

Let's assume we are standing at one end of a large empty warehouse

Directly in front of us (about 1metre away) is someone bashing away at a piano

What do you think we would hear?

I think we would hear the piano "loud and proud" in the centre, followed by a "wash" of reverb as the sound waves bounce around the warehouse and eventually reach our ears

I think the "wash" of reverb will completely fill the stereo field, since it is sound bouncing off all of the walls, ceiling, floor, the piano, and even us!

We now move the piano away 5metres and push it to the left hand side of the warehouse so it is 10 metres off-centre (to the left)

After a rest (pianos are heavy  ) - we sit and listen to the sound

The direct piano sound is now definitely coming from the left, although it is not as prominent as it is further away - it is not only quieter in volume (being further away) BUT the direct sound waves are hitting our ears at the same time as some of the waves being bounced off the walls (eg the left hand wall), ceiling, floor, etc.

But what about the general "wash" of reverb?

The sound still bounces off of all the walls so I do not think there would be a definite pan position to this reverb

If you think of this "wash" of reverb as your "send" then I hope you will understand that it is less important (or even desirable) to pan your reverb to a particular position (especially if you are going for a natural sound)


Now, let's get creative...

We decide to "mic up" our piano and hook it up to a guitar amp, with the reverb cranked up

What do we hear now?

I think we would hear the sound from the piano coming from the left, I think we would hear the piano with reverb coming from the guitar amp (which might be a "spring type reverb") also coming from the left, BUT we would still hear the "wash" of reverb from the "space" we are in (the warehouse), which would sound like it is coming from everywhere (ie the whole stereo field)

The guitar amp reverb is acting like an "insert" reverb in this example and as you can see is effectively "panned" with the instrument

But - and here is where things get interesting - the "spring reverb" coming from the guitar amp will also be affected by the "space" it is in - in this case the warehouse - as it will also bounce around the walls, ceiling, floor etc. - and would also just hit your ears in the stereo field and not necessarily at a defined "pan position"

So to replicate this in your DAW...

You would have your piano on a track panned left

You would put an "insert" effect of a "spring reverb"

You would put a send to a "large space" stereo reverb

You would send your piano sound to this space reverb (if you wanted to get technical you could even programme a stereo reverb to give the impression it is near to a wall on the left had side using pre-delay, reflection timings etc. - or you could even programme the reverb to replicate some curtains hanging up in the space - or we could even capture the reverb characteristics of a space we like using Impulse Response (IR) files -  but this is all a bit technical for this example  )

You would also send some of your "spring reverb" to the "space reverb" to recreate the environment having an impact on the guitar amp's reverb sound


This is a simplistic example but I hope it helps you get your head around reverb

The goal is usually to have a consistent "space" (or "ambient") reverb send so it sounds like your instruments are in the same "space" - BUT - you can still have lots of other reverbs set up to add some spice to your track

If you are using "send" reverbs then you can always add a touch of your "spring reverb" to the "space" reverb, to get a sense of consistency, by adding a reverb send to another one of your your reverb sends 

I now tend to have at least 4 reverbs set up - a "short" reverb (usually plate), a medium (eg small room) reverb for vocal "ambience", a longer reverb for effects (chamber or hall) and a general "ambience" reverb (eg a medium/large room)

These are the "rules" as I see them for a realistic sound

Once you understand this you can start "breaking the rules" for specific effect - eg why not pan a huge reverb?

An effect I like to use is have a dry signal panned one side and then pan just the reverb to the other!


One final word of warning...

Whilst using lots of reverb can be great fun it is a sure fire way to muddy your mixes if you are not careful

Don't forget to EQ your "dry signals" and also don't forget that you can add EQ to your send channels - for example you can take the low end out of the reverb tails, which should help you maintain control of your mix

Hope this helps...

[Sunfighter]

tone - thanks for the advice.  I'm still trying to find out whether it's a restriction in Cubase Essential.  It wouldnt change anything really because I can't afford the full version anyway!

Boydie - that is awesome.  Thank you.  I've really got a lot from your description of reverb.  Perhaps I have been looking for something I don't need anyway.

Unfortunately because I can't use headphones due to my tinnitus I don't as good a sense of the stereo feel as I used to.  But I've just got some better monitors to help.

But your description of reverb really helped me get my head around it.

Cheers to you both.

[seriousfun]

I use Cubase 6 and if I understand your post correctly what you are experiencing is not a limitation of Cubase as it is the same in the full version.

There are two ways you can use the Room works plugin.

1. You can set up an fx track and insert the plugin there. This will mean you save soom resources as there is one instance of the plugin operating. It also means you can use the same revep for a number of instruments and just vary the amount of effect each receives from the reverb. This will have the added bonus of making the instruments sound like they are in the same space. As Boydie has pointed out its not really an issue as reverb by its very nature comes from the room and is not a localised effect associated with the instruments location.

2. You can drop the plugin into the insert effects of the instrument itself. If you do this you any controls you place on the reverb are specific to that instrument alone.


Hope this is of some help.

[Sunfighter]

Thanks everyone.  I understand reverb better now.

I'm currently working on a remix where I've played around with the reverb.

[seriousfun]

Just an addition, if you still want to pan some reverbs using a send but not others.

Set up two reverb channels, one paned left and one panned right. That way you could send to both channels to get a stereo effect or just one channel to get a pan. And of course all the options inbetween by just adjusting how much is sent to each channel.