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Lordes "incorrect" song writing...

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Cazrolina

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« on: April 21, 2017, 09:12:54 PM »
Evening all,

Stumbled across some interesting reading earlier today, about melodic math and Lordes new song, Green Light.

I have to say that I agree this new song of hers feels weird. But are there really rights and wrongs in songwriting? Are there just a few magic steps for putting together the perfect song? And if we all followed these steps, wouldn't all songs eventually sound like another and we begin to run out of pop music?
Is she "doing it wrong" to try to be clever and break a mould?
Hmmm. God knows.

Article: http://www.songwritingmagazine.co.uk/news/lordes-incorrect-songwriting/36966
Music video: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dMK_npDG12Q

Happy Friday y'all
Caz
« Last Edit: April 22, 2017, 08:35:45 AM by Cazrolina »
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tone

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« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2017, 10:21:28 PM »
First of all I would like to voice the opinion (fact) that there is no such thing as incorrect songwriting. Or melodic math(s) for that matter. ;)

And to hear one songwriter criticise another like this makes me really cross. You'd think someone as successful as Max Martin would encourage up and coming writers, not tell them they're doing it wrong.

As for the song, in spite of being everything I hate about the pop we have now in so many ways, I can't help liking it. I think I like it because it's a bit braver than other songs. Lorde's not afraid to use the low part of her voice or play around with the meter. This makes it refreshing and gives it an edginess that's often lacking. The lyrics are a bit of a let down after Royals, but she's only young, so can't really hold her to the highest standards just yet.

Incorrect songwriting my arse. Maybe Mr Martin doesn't like someone half his age turning up with tunes every bit as good and popular as his.
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Yodasdad

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« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2017, 10:44:14 PM »
I haven't heard this track so I can't comment on it specifically.

I agree with Tone that there are no rules, if something works, it works, regardless of any theory or thought behind it.

What there are though are conventions, certain ways things are generally done because they work. This doesn't mean that conventions shouldn't be challenged, they should, this is how we get originality, creativity and how new genres are born.

Conventions are there for a reason though, because they generally work. How many songs end chord V - I, a perfect cadence? Lots, because it often works just right. Are there other ways the song could end, probably. Should it end in a different way if it sounds good? Why not. Should it end differently for the sake of being different? Probably not.

For me it's all about the end result. Stick to conventions or break them. Use a formula and write serialism or roll a dice and go aleatoric, I don't care, if it sounds good it sounds good.

The only problem with conventions though is they can easily become cliches, then again those who spend the money seem to like cliches a lot of the time.

Yodasdad

Oldbutyet

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« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2017, 11:53:12 PM »
The first time i heard of Max Martin was a few post back, dont know anything about him but i will say i do like Lorde - Green Light - video thank you, really visual lyric wises very good, the driver was probably thinking "or hell shes paying me well"  as for the piano player in the ladies toilets, really visual lyric wise, i think that was a class act.

Whats incorrect here.

Mike67

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« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2017, 11:55:09 PM »
I signed up for a songwriting course a couple of years ago, which I studies for a month or so. We learned about stable and unstable structures, chord progressions, etc, and there were the usual references to great songs and Songwriters, such as Lennon, Bowie, Paul Simon. I'm pretty sure none of those guys studied songwriting theory, they just wrote what sounded right to them. They occasionally did something innovative and different, but it still worked in the context of the song. Sometimes we like the output and sometimes we don't, but opinion will always be split. But they usually fit within a spectrum of acceptability.

I don't know with this song whether there was a deliberate attempt to do something innovative, or whether this was just the way the song evolved. Personally it does nothing for me, despite the grand production. I do like listening to music that challenges me, but this doesn't for some reason. It just sounds like a lot of modern music, but flatter, like I'm watching traffic go round the M25. Music's a strange and personal thing.

But, I do agree that there are no rules, or even conventions. It's about musical norms; exposure to a spectrum of musical structures and notation that we've grown to feel comfortable with.

Mike

S.T.C

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« Reply #5 on: April 22, 2017, 09:26:52 AM »
I guess the MAX MARTIN philosophy on songwriting shouldn't be ignored , pure hit s/writing that is.
Lordes new song, is a mixture of a modern studio concoction and her style ,but because it is a little weird, it makes it more interesting....maybe that's what he means, don't sacrifice the catchy melody for an 'edge' ..but then that wouldn't be her would it.  

If you listen to Katy perry's 'Chained to the rhythm ' which i read is a Perry/SIA/Martin production...you can hear what he's all about , every mouthful is heaped and sweetened ...like with Roar , you don't get to rest , till the songs over....i think 'C/Melody' is an exceptional chart song ,i can imagine once he's finished the master ,rather like Cowell ,he sits back in the chair and knows it's kerching and in the bag.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2017, 09:38:41 AM by S.T.C »

Sing4me88

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« Reply #6 on: April 22, 2017, 11:15:14 AM »
I'm diggin' 'Green Light' fo'sure. It's fresh and has an edge and I think it's got a nice conversational feel to it lyrically. I was MM had have elaborated on what exactly 'melodic maths' were. Whatever they are if he uses them you can bet they are worth knowing for anyone trying to write commercially... one thing that I'm amazed by MM is his longevity. He's owned the pop scene for the last 20 years. From working on Ace of Bass 'The Sign' right through to 'Chained by the Rhythm' he's still got it.Not only is he still personally knocking on hit after hit but he's also influencing the new gen of producers around him like Dr Luke etc.

I'm loving 'Chained to the Rhythm'. Easily my favourite song in the charts this year yet. It's got a nice cross vibe between dance and disco/funk - probably the slap bass and Skip Marley influence. Sia must be great to work with - she literally gets someone to play a few chords on the piano and then unleashes a vocal melody that she later puts lyrics to. Granted it's much easier to do this when you've got a voice like  she does...

The S

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« Reply #7 on: April 22, 2017, 07:19:58 PM »
By incorrect songwriting I wouldn't be surprised if he meant, if there are any rules whatsoever out there you're sure not following them and I love it.

adamfarr

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« Reply #8 on: April 23, 2017, 08:15:39 AM »
Incorrect = "not doing things my way"? Maybe MM should hang around this forum for a while to pick up some fresh ideas :D

diademgrove

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« Reply #9 on: April 23, 2017, 09:08:58 AM »
Without counting out the beats it appears Lordes sings part of the song in double time. She may have changed the time signature but that wasn't noticeable on my couple of listens. Both of which were common song writing techniques before Max Martin's grandfather was born.

She reminds me of Buffy St Marie.

tone

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« Reply #10 on: April 23, 2017, 09:18:54 AM »
Well said Keith. To call this incorrect just makes MM look like a lucky amateur. If he needs to rigidly stick to maths and formulas to write a song, he ain't a proper songwriter, success notwithstanding. It makes him a good businessman.
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The S

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« Reply #11 on: April 23, 2017, 11:12:03 AM »
Well said Keith. To call this incorrect just makes MM look like a lucky amateur. If he needs to rigidly stick to maths and formulas to write a song, he ain't a proper songwriter, success notwithstanding. It makes him a good businessman.

I will not take the bait.  ;D ;D

Sing4me88

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« Reply #12 on: April 23, 2017, 11:25:59 AM »
Well said Keith. To call this incorrect just makes MM look like a lucky amateur. If he needs to rigidly stick to maths and formulas to write a song, he ain't a proper songwriter, success notwithstanding. It makes him a good businessman.

Ouch - what a burn. MM gonna need the sudocream after that  :D

Given he's almost singlehandedly defined what commercially successful pop music is for the best part of the last 20 years I'm sure being called a lucky amateur will keep him up all night and distract him from working out the interest on those royalty cheques...

Boydie

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« Reply #13 on: April 23, 2017, 11:32:20 AM »
Having now read the article I think it is important to point out that Lordes actually asked Max Martin for his opinion

It also sounds like he was truly trying to help her "tighten up" the song by sharing his thoughts on what a hit "should" sound like and I suspect the term "incorrect songwriting" was said with tongue firmly in cheek

It was not like Max Martin has just made an attack on Lordes - she is recounting a private conversation - I would bet MM is a bit embarrassed by this and even though he clearly follows a (winning) formula I still argue that his (and others) pop songs are just as valid as what others cite as "proper songs"

There is definitely a songwriting talent to consistently come up with hooks and lyrics that "engage" whilst being conversational
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tone

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« Reply #14 on: April 23, 2017, 12:03:22 PM »
To clarify, I'm not saying he *is* a lucky amateur (although I am saying he's a good businessman). I'm just saying this comment suggests a strange attitude for someone who spends their life making music. All I can hope is that 'incorrect' was a poor choice of words for a non-native speaker and maybe he meant to imply unconventional.
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